Scientology

El_mariachi

listen.. recently i met a former scientologist who told me some scary stuff. like he lost everything to them as they convinced him to sign over his material belongings so he could be truely happy. he was told when he informed them he was leaving that he wasn't going to be let and and received death threats.

i went to the scientology hq for ireland in dublin to see was it a cult for my self.. f**k me was i scared. first you watch this vid showing all these 'happy' people then they bring you into a room where you do a 'personalaitly test' which they try to figure you out and find your weaknessess. when they have figured you out and believe me they are good at it. they started to pick at my weakness and fault that i dont like about myself and told me that the could help make it better. all i hasd to do was join them for a fee.. which was not disclosed to me. after that we again were taken to another room and allowed to ask question... i was allowed stay for 15mins before i was thrown out by 3 men.. they were not inpressed with my questions on L.ron hubbard being a sci fi writer and the fact they believe that the world was create by brain washed alien souls... which xenu sent here because his galaxy was too over crowded. it was scary they threw me out onto the street but lucky it was worth it cause some of the other people followed me out and i feel they were spared the brain washing.


Scientology is a cult that will that over the world. it is clear to me that it needs to be taken down soon. its scary how good they are at manipulation of people and they pick on these who are alone, or young. please for the love of god or who ever you believe or don't believe in do not ever go near these cultist freaks.. you will be sorry.

super_furry

Tom Cruise would like a word with you.

In private.

RE*AC*TOR

I have been a member of the Church of Scientology for 9 years and I've never seen evidence of any of the behaviour you described.

Your IP has been traced, expect a visit soon.

Nevyn

Ok I will admit that of all the belief systems out there, this is one of the few I have very little time for, but having a go at people for what they believe is
quiet frankly rude and so is taking up thier time for no good reason.

This forum was created to talk about the many differing aspects of spirituaily
not to have a go at any of them.

El_mariachi

to RE*AC*TOR:

yeah i'd expected that of a Scientologist... you guys are sue happy...
trace me and silance me isn't that right so no-1 exposes the truth behind your cult..

Thaedydal:

no i'm not here to slag the Church of Scientology I'm here to help people not get caught in the trap my Friend did. how would you feel if a family member or close friend gets sucked into the Church of Scientology and loses everything.. i've done my research.. if its such a great thing the Church of Scientology. why is several European coutries in the process of having it banned and why is it banned in many coutries including Greece.

here you want some more proof: http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/dianetics_abuse.html there is a lover 30 stories what this cult does..

here is some more stuff about this nice people.. who don't like anything bad said about they're happy organization.

Scientology have made very often quite vague threats against both http://www.Google.COM/ and http://www.Archive.ORG/ for not stopping their search engines from displaying site which are againist them. This time the notorious company is trying to claim that the Internet is responsible for murders of Scientologists and further attempts to equate free speech and human rights activists to Islamic terrorist mass murderers.

the list is endless of stuff like this and when i have time i will post more of it.............

Please for the love of who you believe in keep away for the church of scientology

RE*AC*TOR

Religious persecution alive and well in the 21st Century...

I pity you El_mariachi, you obviously have an axe to grind.
It probably has origins in some past events in your life that are still burdening you. The sad irony is that the Church could help you.

I expect the administrators of Boards.ie won't take to kindly to this manner of slanderous material, at least not after some written coercion.

CrazySka

Read this: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/
and this: http://www.scientology-lies.com/faq/teachings/
this: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/joecisar/rpf1000.htm
nice overview here: http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/what-cos.htm

Reactor if you are a real member of the church of scientology nobody would expect to convince you otherwise on a web forum as its unlikely (if the horror stories are true) that we could change your mind with just a few lines of text, but for others the evidence is there to be seen.

Religious persecution alive and well in the 21st Century...
Your IP has been traced, expect a visit soon.

religious persecution is not the issue here, the op has had experience through a close friend and through his own visit to the organisation of the aggressive recruitment policies this religion pursues, if i went to my local church and was locked in the vestry for three hours and told about the flaws in my personality and how i could be helped for a fee id be very cautious and would feel well within my rights to inform the world about it.

I have been a member of the Church of Scientology for 9 years and I've never seen evidence of any of the behaviour you described.

So therefore none of these practises exist, the people allegedly imprisoned(and escaped) on RPF's in the states are lying??

I expect the administrators of Boards.ie won't take to kindly to this manner of slanderous material, at least not after some written coercion.

we live in a democratic society, the church of scientology says that the teaching of the catholic church are memories from a brainwashing exercise 75 million years ago and the op cant say that scientology is a dangerous cult??

Just because you havent experienced the bad side of this organisation does not mean that it does not exist perhaps you ve been deemed to stable to accept their core teachings yet or perhaps you havent reached that point. answer me a question honestly, in those nine years how much money have you given/been asked to give to the organisation. if i give money to my catholic church i know it goes to maintain the church and look after the priests who minister there, where are the churches of scientology, i see no large buildings, just a floor on nassau street (im ready to be corrected if im wrong) Where does the money go?
look everyone is entitled to practise whatever religion they choose and everyone is entitled to comment on these religions(as long as slander is not involved).

Your IP has been traced, expect a visit soon.

Just to go back to this for a second if your not taking the pi** what are you sayin that members of the church are going to visit him for his views? what are they going to do??

Dirk Gently

Thaedydal wrote:

Ok I will admit that of all the belief systems out there, this is one of the few I have very little time for, but having a go at people for what they believe is
quiet frankly rude and so is taking up thier time for no good reason.

This forum was created to talk about the many differing aspects of spirituaily
not to have a go at any of them.

At the risk of going against a mod, I think scientology is fair game for some abuse. It’s not a real religion and is just a profit making scam which is very harmful to people both financially and psychologically. I myself am an atheist but have no problem with spiritual or religious people, just don't think scientology deserves to fall into that category.
p.s. something tells me reactor is taking the piss out of the O.P.

As Hubbard himself said, the best way to make money is to invent a religion.

CrazySka

something tells me reactor is taking the piss out of the O.P.

If he is im sorry for my long winded post, if hes not then grrr

Dirk Gently

Maybe he’s not, but the comment about the ip address being traced and someone getting in touch soon smacks of taking the piss to me considering the topic and the practices of scientologists. Some dry wit me thinks. Or of course he could be one of them and so the irony of his statement would be lost on him.

RE*AC*TOR

john_dub wrote:

Reactor if you are a real member of the church of scientology nobody would expect to convince you otherwise on a web forum as its unlikely (if the horror stories are true) that we could change your mind with just a few lines of text, but for others the evidence is there to be seen.

The question is john_dub - do you know who the sources of that "information" are? Are they trustworthy? What are their motivations? This isn't rocket-science - but in short, don't believe everything you see on the internet.

john_dub wrote:

religious persecution is not the issue here, the op has had experience through a close friend and through his own visit to the organisation of the aggressive recruitment policies this religion pursues, if i went to my local church and was locked in the vestry for three hours and told about the flaws in my personality and how i could be helped for a fee id be very cautious and would feel well within my rights to inform the world about it.

Religious persecution is the issue here - a thread entitled "Death to Islam" wouldn't last very long here. As for the OP - why do you jump to believe what he says about his "friend"? I know for a fact that his "friend" (who's real name is <name removed>) - was served a court injunction to cease and desist in his defamation of our church. I suspect that the OP is indeed <name removed> and is pursuing his petty grudge under the guise of a "friend".

john_dub wrote:

So therefore none of these practises exist, the people allegedly imprisoned(and escaped) on RPF's in the states are lying??


we live in a democratic society, the church of scientology says that the teaching of the catholic church are memories from a brainwashing exercise 75 million years ago and the op cant say that scientology is a dangerous cult??

I believe there are certain laws that pertain to incitement to hatred. Certain liable laws also apply.

john_dub wrote:

Just because you havent experienced the bad side of this organisation does not mean that it does not exist perhaps you ve been deemed to stable to accept their core teachings yet or perhaps you havent reached that point. answer me a question honestly, in those nine years how much money have you given/been asked to give to the organisation. if i give money to my catholic church i know it goes to maintain the church and look after the priests who minister there, where are the churches of scientology, i see no large buildings, just a floor on nassau street (im ready to be corrected if im wrong) Where does the money go?

Our main mission, is on Abbey St., our presence in Ireland is low, so you won't see (for now at least) widescale Church buildings like with established religions.

You obviously aren't aware of the great number of charitable organisations the Church sponsors. Obviously our presence in Ireland is low, but in America there are many drug rehabilitation schemes, leg-up programs for inner-city kids etc.

Of course, no one is interested in these facts - not salacious enough!!!

john_dub wrote:

look everyone is entitled to practise whatever religion they choose and everyone is entitled to comment on these religions(as long as slander is not involved).

I have no authority on Boards.ie, so I cannot decide what can and cannot be posted - it is up to the mods and the admins to make that decision. However, I am sure that the admins will obey the law. They have shown how quick they are to obey other laws regarding "free speech" on the site - just go to the Computer or Games forums - they are very quick to take down illegal speech there.

Dirk Gently

Ok so he is one of them and the irony was lost on him.

As for religious persecution, what about the persecution of its members and their families. The only reason it's classed as a religion is to get out of paying taxes in the U.S.
Why is one of the first things they make new members do is to sign a legal agreement that they will never speak to the media or to anyone else about scientology or risk being sued. I did some investigating at that abbey street "mission" and spent a few weeks doing the audits and workshops. I can confirm wholeheartedly that it is a money making scam and the techniques used are brainwashing. When I had seen enough and stopped going I was hounded with phone calls and letters and still get the odd letter today. (5 years later) They are quite simply out to make money and should not be described as religious or spiritual. A science fiction story which would have made an interesting book but not a genuine religion (if there is such a thing)

CrazySka

Reactor if a thousand people, books, websites told you not to eat them poisonous berries and then one guy came along and said hang on their actually ok would you eat them?
ill stick with my views on this thanks.

RE*AC*TOR

clown bag wrote:

Ok so he is one of them and the irony was lost on him.

As for religious persecution, what about the persecution of its members and their families.

Alleged persecution! Name one conviction?

clown bag wrote:

The only reason it's classed as a religion is to get out of paying taxes in the U.S.
Why is one of the first things they make new members do is to sign a legal agreement that they will never speak to the media or to anyone else about scientology or risk being sued.

This is utter nonsense. I was on a radio-show during the week with a fellow colleague discussing Scientology. It was a very calm and rational discussion with some dissenting voices. Scientology has no problem with dissent and opposing views - but when it gets to a point where you are being maliciously slandered! You have to protect the organisation and its members.

clown bag wrote:

I did some investigating at that abbey street "mission" and spent a few weeks doing the audits and workshops. I can confirm wholeheartedly that it is a money making scam and the techniques used are brainwashing. When I had seen enough and stopped going I was hounded with phone calls and letters and still get the odd letter today. (5 years later)

So your major gripe with The Church is that they valued you enough to correspond with you 5 years later. As for the money, I'm sure you are aware that rental in Dublin city center is not cheap. So The Church offers courses, workshops and counselling on a stricly non-mandatory manner for small fees. We don't have the collection tray or the deep pockets of the vatican. I wonder where the vatican got all their money?

clown bag wrote:

They are quite simply out to make money and should not be described as religious or spiritual. A science fiction story which would have made an interesting book but not a genuine religion (if there is such a thing)

So scientology is Science Fiction, but Jesus walking on water and turnign water into wine is believable? Typical hyopcrasy!

john_dub wrote:

Reactor if a thousand people, books, websites told you not to eat them poisonous berries and then one guy came along and said hang on their actually ok would you eat them?
ill stick with my views on this thanks.

If someone came along and told you that you weren't allowed to use condoms despite an AIDS epidemic in your continent - would you wear one?

You are entitled to your views, but perhaps you should question where you are getting these "opinions" from and who are the people trying to give you these "opinions".

Nevyn

clown bag wrote:

At the risk of going against a mod, I think scientology is fair game for some abuse.

You may think that but that does not mean you will get to abuse it or anyone
who is a member here, nor will anyone be allowed to recruit people here.
The rules of boards.ie and the charter still stand.

CrazySka

If someone came along and told you that you weren't allowed to use condoms despite an AIDS epidemic in your continent - would you wear one?

personally i would, but thats because i have been given the proper education on this matter unlike the people youre using to give weight to your argument.
My views are my own, and your veiled suggestion that my upbringing is at the heart of my views on your religion are wrong, i believe in premarital sex,contraception and the individuals right to choice.
look im not going to get into an aruguement on this, i think the forums here to give views on spiritualism but if the catholic church is totally responsible for the aids epidemic in africa your wrong, education is the problem.
I wish you well in your church and i hope everything turns out well for you and the horror stories are not true but i will never change my own personal negative views on this situaion.

El_mariachi

its so good to see i'm not alone in the fight againist this ermm 'religion' its a cult the fact their is more site bout the dangers of it than the pro's shows how it is is evil.....


And look reactor.. it is science fiction... hubbard was a sci fi writer he lived on a boat with little boys and was arrested serveral times for abuse and tax fraud... he was a nut and so is your cult... every the paper claim it to be a cult...

you want a conviction ... noteworthy incidents involving criminal accusations against the Church of Scientology include:

In 1978, a number of Scientologists including L. Ron Hubbard's wife Mary Sue Hubbard (who was second in command in the organization at the time) were convicted of perpetrating the largest incident of domestic espionage in the history of the United States. Called "Operation Snow White" within the Church, this involved infiltrating, wiretapping, and stealing documents from the offices of Federal attorneys and the Internal Revenue Service. The judge who convicted Mrs. Hubbard and ten accomplices decried their attempt to plead freedom of religion in defense:

"It is interesting to note that the founder of their organization, unindicted co-conspirator L. Ron Hubbard, wrote in his dictionary entitled Modern Management Technology Defined ... that 'truth is what is true for you.' Thus, with the founder's blessings they could wantonly commit perjury as long as it was in the interest of Scientology.
The defendants rewarded criminal activities that ended in success and sternly rebuked those that failed. The standards of human conduct embodied in such practices represent no less than the absolute perversion of any known ethical value system.
In view of this, it defies the imagination that these defendants have the unmitigated audacity to seek to defend their actions in the name of 'religion.'
That these defendants now attempt to hide behind the sacred principles of freedom of religion, freedom of speech and the right to privacy -- which principles they repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to violate with impunity -- adds insult to the injuries which they have inflicted on every element of society." [5]
Eleven church staff, including Mary Sue Hubbard and other highly placed officials, pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court based on evidence seized in the raids, and received sentences from two to six years.


received sentences from two to six years.!!!!

received sentences from two to six years.!!!

thats a conviction to me don't you think .

oh here some more for you..

During the 1960s, Scientology was accused by the United States government of engaging in medical fraud by claiming that the E-meter would treat and cure physical ailments and diseases. A 1971 ruling of the United States District Court, District of Columbia (333 F. Supp. 357), specifically stated, "the E-meter has no proven usefulness in the diagnosis, treatment or prevention of any disease, nor is it medically or scientifically capable of improving any bodily function." [6] As a result of this ruling, Scientology now publishes disclaimers in its books and publications declaring that the E-meter "does nothing," and that it is used specifically for spiritual purposes.

In 1978, L. Ron Hubbard was convicted in absentia by French authorities of engaging in fraud, and sentenced to four years in prison. Hubbard was not present at the trial in France, though the head of the French Church of Scientology was convicted at the same trial and given a suspended one-year prison sentence.

The FBI raid on the Church's headquarters revealed documentation that detailed Scientology actions against various critics of the organization. Among these documents was a plan to frame the mayor of the city of Clearwater, Florida; plans to discredit the skeptical organization CSICOP by spreading rumors that it was a front for the CIA; and a project called "Operation Freakout," aimed at ruining the life of author Paulette Cooper, author of an early book critical of the movement, The Scandal of Scientology.

In 1988 the government of Spain arrested Scientology president Heber Jentzsch and ten other members of the organization on various charges, including "illicit association," coercion, fraud, and labor law violations. Jentzsch jumped bail, leaving Spain and returning to the United States after Scientology paid a bail bond of approximately $1 million, and he has not returned to the country since. Scientology fought the charges in court for fourteen years, until the case was finally dismissed in 2002.

The Church of Scientology is the only religious organization in Canada to be convicted on the charge of breaching the public trust: The Queen v. Church of Scientology of Toronto, et al. (1992)

In France, several officials of the Church of Scientology have been convicted of crimes such as embezzlement. The Church was listed as a "dangerous cult" in a parliamentary report.

The Church of Scientology long considered the Cult Awareness Network (CAN) as one of its most important enemies, and many Scientology publications during the 1980s and 1990s cast CAN (and its spokesperson at the time, Cynthia Kisser) in an unfriendly light, accusing the cult-watchdog organization of various criminal activities. After CAN was forced into bankruptcy and taken over by Scientologists in the late 1990s, Scientology proudly proclaimed this as one of its greatest victories. (Source: Scientology press release issued upon winning the CAN court battle and another view from the American Lawyer. June 1997.)

wait is that enough conviction for you or how about what happened in the case of Lisa McPherson



Over the years, the Church of Scientology has been accused of culpability in the death of several of its members.

The most widely publicized such case involved the 1995 death of 36-year-old Lisa McPherson, while in the care of scientologists at the Scientology-owned Fort Harrison Hotel, in Clearwater, Florida. Having experienced symptoms usually associated with mental illness (such as removing all of her clothes at the scene of a minor traffic accident), the Church intervened to prevent McPherson from receiving psychiatric treatment, and to return her to the custody of the Church of Scientology. Records show that she was then placed in isolation as part of a Scientology program known as the Introspection Rundown. Days later, she was pronounced dead on arrival at a local hospital, exhibiting signs of severe dehydration.

Criminal charges were filed against the Church of Scientology by Florida authorities. The Church of Scientology denied any responsibility for McPherson's death and they vigorously contested the charges; the prosecuting attorneys ultimately dropped the criminal case. After four years, a $100 million civil lawsuit filed by Lisa McPherson's family was settled in 2004. The terms of the settlement were sealed by the court.

After four years, a $100 million civil lawsuit.... wow thats a lot of money to pay out..... smell of guilt here or what????


mmmmmm also didn't you know that L. Ron Hubbard. writings about homosexuality have given rise to assertions that Scientology promotes homophobia. These allegations are sadi to be true by some gay Scientologists.. some have claimed they have being brain washed out of being gay or attempts have been made...

here some more... don't say i'm jumping on the band wagon.. i'm here to save people from this cult....

Scientology is telling people lies.
Lying to people to get their money isn't just unethical - it's illegal. It's called fraud.

Scientology claims there is a scientific basis for all their processes. There isn't. Scientology claims it's compatible with other belief systems, like Christianity. It's not. Scientology claims to be the fastest-growing religion in the world, with 8 million members, utilizing infallible technology developed by a physicist and war hero...(HUBBARD WAS KICKED OUT OF THE NAVAY). They're lying.


Scientology is breaking the law.
In addition to false imprisonment and fraud, Scientology engages in the illegal practice of medicine by prescribing auditing and vitamins to replace legally-prescribed medical treatment.

Scientology also extorts money from its members, telling them it's scientifically proven that their lives will become worse if they don't pay for expensive auditing.

Scientology has a long, well-documented history of criminal activities.
High-ranking Scientology executives were convicted of extremely serious crimes in the United States for breaking into government offices and stealing documents. Founder L. Ron Hubbard was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in that case, and the defendants stated in their stipulation of evidence that, at all times, he acted as supervisor of the illegal activities.

Scientology itself was convicted of similar crimes in Canada. When Scientology then tried to destroy the reputation of the prosecutor in the case, they were hit with the biggest libel fine in Canadian history.

L. Ron Hubbard was convicted of fraud in France.

Scientology hurts people.
Scientology routinely pressures members into spending more money than they can afford on expensive courses.

Scientology's disconnection policy destroys families.

Scientology betrays the trust of well-intentioned people by falsely claiming to have a scientifically-proven technology to save the world.

Scientology ruthlessly attacks its critics with everything from frame-ups to unannounced visits to the homes of family members to libellous fliers distributed to their neighbors and business associates.

And sometimes, Scientologists die under suspicious circumstances.

El_mariachi

sorry this had to be two posts

maybe i'l finish with some words from the Ass behind all this... Mr L. Ron Hubbard

""THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. The only way you can control anybody is to lie to them." — L. Ron Hubbard

"They smell of all the baths they didn't take. The trouble with China is, there are too many chinks here." — L. Ron Hubbard in his personal diary on a trip China, circa 1928

"People attack Scientology; I never forget it, always even the score. People attack auditors, or staff, or organisations, or me. I never forget until the slate is clear." — L. Ron Hubbard

"So we listen. We add up associations of people with people. When a push against Scientology starts somewhere, we go over the people involved and weed them out. Push vanishes." — L. Ron Hubbard

"Bluntly, we are out to replace medicine in the next three years." - L. Ron Hubbard

"We are not even vaguely propitiative toward medicine or psychiatry, and we are overtly intent upon assimilating every function they are now performing." — L. Ron Hubbard


now he's more BAD Stuff for you reactor

Brainwashing

The Church of Scientology is frequently accused by critics of employing brainwashing and intimidation tactics to influence "public" members to donate large amounts of money, and to force "staff" and "Sea Org" members to submit completely to the organization. Time magazine published a cover story in 1991, "The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power", that supported such charges. (The Church of Scientology launched an extensive campaign in response to the article, asserting that Time was going after Scientology at the behest of their advertiser Eli Lilly, the manufacturer of psychiatric drugs.)

One alleged example of the Church's brainwashing tactics is the Rehabilitation Project Force, to which church staff are assigned to work off alleged wrongdoings under conditions that many critics characterize as degrading. Some of these allegations are presented in Stephen Kent's Brainwashing in Scientology's Rehabilitation Project Force (RPF). Articles that rebut those charges include Juha Pentikäinen's The Church of Scientology's Rehabilitation Project Force and J. Gordon Melton's A Contemporary Ordered Religious Community: The Sea Organization.


will i keep going... you see its not just a few that dislike scientology its the masses and it is gonna be brought out into the open as a cult that it is...

Dirk Gently

Just to reply I’m an atheist and don’t believe in any religions including claims that Jesus walked on water, but I do have more respect for them.
I’m just pointing out the scientology was written by a science fiction writer who claimed that the best way to make money was to invent a religion.
I know there is no problem with positive press but there is a problem with former members speaking out against the cult and threats are made against them, both physical and financial.
The point about the letters is that they are constant despite me never actually being a member and asking them on a number of occasions to stop. Every stage of progression within scientology to the next level is dependant on a sum of money being paid.
I was encouraged while doing the auditing to stay away from non scientologists and not to listen to family members opinions. I of course didn’t take this advice as I was not a scientology believer but just there to find out more about them. What I found out about them from my time spent there is what formed my opinion and it is not formed from reading scare stories on the internet although the scare stories do make sense and are consistent with my first hand experience.

I take the mods point and will try to keep out of scientology discussions as it does make my blood boil a bit. The word “abuse” shouldn’t have been used and I apologise for using it.

DeVore

I have a serious problem with Scientology but I'll still ask the posters to refrain from name called (El Mariachi) or pretending they have access to IP information (REACTOR, and I'm pretty peeved about that too).

DeV.

Santa Claus

I think Death to Scientology is a bit strong, after all to each their own but I think the Germans have the right approach where they refuse to recognise Scientology as a religion (source: German Embassy Website - http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/archives/background/scientology.html)
and their definition of Scientology hits the nail on the head for me :

"The German government considers the Scientology organization a commercial enterprise with a history of taking advantage of vulnerable individuals and an extreme dislike of any criticism. "

I was suprised to read though, that scientology is also not recognised as a religion in Ireland. In fact it is also not recognised in Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, Luxembourg, Spain, Israel and Mexico.


REACTOR, your comments below summarise to me perfectly the reaction of Scientology to any form of criticism (You're not exactly doing a good PR job for them here ):

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

I expect the administrators of Boards.ie won't take to kindly to this manner of slanderous material, at least not after some written coercion.

(Interestingly enough the dictionary definition of coercion is "the act of compelling by force of authority or using force to cause something"....that sounds like something scientology have been accused of many times)

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Your IP has been traced, expect a visit soon.

And a menacing almost threat like expression....again something that scientology has been accused of many times !

El_mariachi

give that man a scroll.

that scientology is also not recognised as a religion in Ireland. In fact it is also not recognised in Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, Luxembourg, Spain, Israel and Mexico. is another great fact againist the cult

stanta claus is my lengend of the week....

sorry to the mod if i broke any rules,

its just that scientology really.. upsets me..

that scientology is also not recognised as a religion in Ireland. In fact it is also not recognised in Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, Luxembourg, Spain, Israel and Mexico. is another great fact

solas

maybe someone could contact the HQ and see if anyone would be willing to input or respond to the discussion here?

(maybe not)

El_mariachi

all we'd get from the scientology Hq is a law suited.....

CrazySka

Brilliant! hey reactor you cant call religious discrimination if your not part of a religion, how about commercial enterprise discrimination?

Nevyn

Title of the thread amended.

As we live in a republic there is no state recognise religion
and secondly under EU law memebers of a miniority faith or religion have rights.
The many Pagan paths for the most part are not recognised, the state is aware of thier exsistence as I am sure it is of Scientology.

stevenmu

Like Thaed says, scientology is not an officially recognised religion simply because there isn't enough people putting it in the box on the census forms. Looking at how many people put 'Jedi' down as their religion, I don't think that's a very good basis to judge what counts as a religion or not. Scientology's size is also the reason it's considered a 'cult' and not a religion, I think you'd find that if the majority of the country were scientologists and only a tiny fraction were catholic, that catholocism would be considered a dangerous cult.

While I don't have much time for scientology, I don't have all that much against it either. People have to be free to make their own choices and decisions, no matter how stupid they seem to us, and as far as I'm aware scientology (unlike some other religions) never forces anyone to join. I find all the claims of brainwashing somewhat disengenuous, hypnotheripasts can't do it, scientists and doctors can't do it, military and other government agencies have unilaterally failed to do it, are we expected to believe that Mr. Hubbard discovered some secret method of forcing people to do his bidding all by himself ? If so why bother starting a religion, why not just brainwash bank managers into giving him all the money ?

The simple fact is that scientology offers something that some people seem to want, if they didn't then there'd be no members, it's as simple as that. We only have the right to judge if it's right or wrong for ourselves, not if it's right or wrong for others.

Dave!

I agree totally with el_mariachi... Not a religion, just a scam, and I question the intelligence of anyone who joins it.

RE*AC*TOR

clown bag wrote:

p.s. something tells me reactor is taking the piss out of the O.P.

Wow I really thought after this that no one would believe me.

Still for a Devil's Advocate I did well.

to quote myself:

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

but in short, don't believe everything you see on the internet.

No one thought it strange that a Scientology userbar sig appeared half way through this discussion?

Dirk Gently

Excellent work reactor
Was sure at the start with your comments that it was a piss take but didn’t think you would bother with the long replies, which kind of changed my opinion a bit.
A devout piss taker. I admire your commitment.

RE*AC*TOR

To Stevenmu - you didn't need to remove that name from my previous post - it was made up. Which I thought the OP would confirm once he logged back on, but he never did....


To DeVore - sorry if I stepped over a line. Didn't expect to believed (as per above).

Ever hear the one were L. Ron said the piltdown man was an important step in human evolution and the first animal to have higher thought.and then like two weeks later it was found to be a hoax?

El_mariachi

time for another great qoute from Hubbard:

Someday i'll start a religion thats where all the money is and people are stupid enough to believe anything you tell them..... direct from the diary of Hubbard.

El_mariachi

stevenmu wrote:

I find all the claims of brainwashing somewhat disengenuous, hypnotheripasts can't do it, scientists and doctors can't do it, military and other government agencies have unilaterally failed to do it,

Are you for real.....???
it can be done.

the military can do it.. they're called sleeper agents.. people who are brainwashed to carry out a mission on hearing a phase and then forget what they have done after. they have no knowage of being a sleeper. go research your facts.

RE*AC*TOR

He's right, this has been documented. The most well known case is the case of a certain Detective Nordberg, who was braiwashed in an apparent assasination attempt on a british royal. Luckily the plot was foiled, but it does form the basis of much of our current understanding of brainwashing.

Undergod

...that's funny! Top marks to Reactor so far.

To be honest, el_mariachi, I'd be skeptical about sleeper agents, but I see no reason why it isn't possible. Various agencies on both sides experimented with LSD during the cold war to get a controllabe form of Dissociative Identity Disorder, for that exact purpose.


On the topic of scientology, I'm quite scared by the reports of the personality test and how they use it against you. But like most religions, how many people genuinely believe in the mad stories? I'm sure there are certain benefits to the system, but overall I think L. Ron Hubbard was a nut.

Dave!

I'd be interested in participating in an experiment... where's their headquarters, again? And do they stand outside and ask you to participate?

EDIT:

lol, what a coincidence, just found this t-shirt...
http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=641

I wonder what they'd do to me if I wore that as I was passing by

DublinWriter

El_mariachi wrote:

the military can do it.. they're called sleeper agents.. people who are brainwashed to carry out a mission on hearing a phase and then forget what they have done after. they have no knowage of being a sleeper. go research your facts.

Really? And your sources are?

Scientology, a dangerous mind-bending cult, religion meets pyramid selling.

I've read Dyanetics from cover to cover and it ranks down there with "Mein Kamfp".

However, having said that, just like Hitler, auld L. Ron was a genius at mass-manipulation. Even Bill Gates never managed to con so many millions with parting with their hard earned for such toss.

Dirk Gently

DaveMcG wrote:

I'd be interested in participating in an experiment... where's their headquarters, again? And do they stand outside and ask you to participate?

EDIT:

lol, what a coincidence, just found this t-shirt...
http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=641

I wonder what they'd do to me if I wore that as I was passing by

abbey street, a few doors down from spirit. usually a bloke standing there offering a personality test. If your gonna have a look at them give a false name and address.

Dave!

thanks clown bag.

el mariachi, would you recommend I take a look? i mean did you feel yourself being brainwashed or anything? i'd consider myself fairly strong-minded, and consider most religions a tad farfetched, so you can take it that scientology doesn't even register as a religion in my head. i find myself laughing at everything the thing is based on (as i'm sure most sane people do), i don't know how i could go from that to handing money over to them. are they that good?

El_mariachi

do, go for the personality test it a laugh, just as some1 said fake name and adrres or your never hear the end of them.. they're mail you every week nearly.

stevenmu

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

To Stevenmu - you didn't need to remove that name from my previous post - it was made up. Which I thought the OP would confirm once he logged back on, but he never did....

Heh, good one. When I read the IP tracing post, I knew you were just making it up, but as the posts went on I started believing you more and more. It certainly made the the thread more interesting than the average scientology one without a devils advocate anyway.

El_mariachi wrote:

Are you for real.....???
it can be done.

the military can do it.. they're called sleeper agents.. people who are brainwashed to carry out a mission on hearing a phase and then forget what they have done after. they have no knowage of being a sleeper. go research your facts.

In general sleeper agents know exactly what they are. They aren't brainwashed, they're dedicated to a cause. They may be dedicated to a cause because of lies and propaganda, many Soviet sleeper agents in the US defected once they realised that everything they'd been told about americans and capitolism was lies, but this is completely different to 'brainwashing'.

It's true that the US has experimented with LSD and other psychotropic drugs, but I've never seen any serious claims that anything was achieved other than driving people insane. By the time anyone was conditioned enough to do what was needed, they were left incapable of functioning as a regular human being, which defeated the whole purpose.

I've tried googling for Detective Nordberg, but other than this thread all I can find is Police Squad episodes.

As far as I'm concerned 'brainwashing', as it's normally thought of anyway, does not exist. Cults recruit people by preying on the weaknesses of their personalities. They convince people that they can offer them whatever it is that's missing in their lives. The offer love and companionship to the lonely, strength to weak, a sense of belonging to the dissafected etc..etc.. They don't do anything that any good salesman doesn't do every day of the week.

RE*AC*TOR

stevenmu wrote:

I've tried googling for Detective Nordberg, but other than this thread all I can find is Police Squad episodes.

here you go

stevenmu

Ah *@&amp;%^, as soon as I saw IMDB in the link I remembered it

$tewi3

lets face the facts you's are arguing over something that doesnt exist. religion is all geographical made up by some ppl to create a ''faithful following'' for there crusade or holy war and of course to line there own pockets or do the scientologists help the poor ppl of africa aswell. its all bull.

p.s from the money they make from there followers id sit down and write a book full of crap aswell. THE ADVENTURES OF MR. T (bible)

CrazySka

What do ya mean "it doesnt exist"?, thats like saying "what are you playing football for? its just a made up game that people created to pass the time. it doesnt even exist" Religion exists in as much as certain people believe in it, you might not thats not to say that its not there

El_mariachi

OT I
OT I comes after completing OT eligibility and OT preps (qv), this consists of walking about and counting people until one has a "win", and similar god-like procedures. EP (End Phenomena) is to extrovert a being, and bring about an awareness of himself in relation to others and the physical universe. Also called OT (Operating Thetan) orientation. OT I has had various incarnations over the years. BTW, there's this swamp land I've got for sale in FLA...


OT II
consists of hundreds of boring "implants" written in Hubbard's hand like "to be or not to be", followed by "spotting the light" that accompanied the "implants." EP (End Phenomena; the final result of processing "therapy") is rehabilitation of intention and ability to project intention. With an EP like that, it can't fail! "A series of processes directed at whole track implant materials (GPMs) dealing with dichotomies and binary thinking. Available at Advanced Organizations and higher." - Jonathon Barbera.

OT III, also called "The Wall of Fire". Deals with Incident 2, Xenu, the evil galactic overlord, and the H bombs on Hawaii 76 million years ago. Hubbard said that anyone who was exposed to this level casually would "freewheel" through it, become a chronic insomniac, then get sick and die. "Locating and auditing of body thetans on Incident I (first incident in MEST universe) and Incident II (incident which caused the degradation of these beings into body thetans and clusters as caused by Xenu approximately seventy-five million years ago). Emphasis on this level is ridding the pre-OT of body thetans which are conscious enough to respond to the auditing. Available at Advanced Organizations and higher. Partially replaced by New OT V." - Jonathon Barbera. See Incident Two.




OT IV;
the Operating Thetan drug rundown. New OT IV gets rid of the effects of taking drugs in past lifetimes for a few thousand dollars. You should really see this land in FLA; it is near Clearwater... "Mocking-up and unmocking implants from Clearing Course in order to prevent future implanting plus the handling and rehabilitation of past auditing. Product was supposed to be an OT Exterior. Replaced by New OT IV: handles the effects of drugs, medicine, and alcohol by addressing BTs stuck to/in drugs, medicine, and alcohol incidents. Audited by Class VIII auditors at Advanced Organizations and higher." - Jonathon Barbera.


OT V;
get rid of those damn Body Thetans! EP (End Phenomena) is cause over life. Should be cause over your debt; you'll need it. New OT 5 starts what is call New Era Dianetics for Operating Thetans, NED for OTs or NOTS, reputed to be for removing BTs (Body Thetans; evil spirit infestations) that didn't respond on OT3. Physical universe familiarization, for only a few 'thou, was a part of old OT V. "A series of drills directed at the Pre-OT's handling of, and relationship to, MEST. Drills were to be done exterior. Replaced by New OT V: A series of steps directed at clearing the Pre-OTs body of body thetans with some attention on body thetans which are causing particular conditions (including health conditions, rock slams caused by the evil intentions of body thetans, PTSness caused by suppressive body thetans, etc.) Audited by Class IX auditors at Advanced Organizations and higher. 55 HCOBs." - Jonathon Barbera. Note: this level has been published on the internet at many locations, however reading it won't help to understand it much, as it is insane garbage.


OT VI;
what, more body thetans? New OT 6 teaches the sucker, I mean the Pre-OT, to do NOTs, New Era Dianetics for Operating Thetans, solo. OT VI is very expensive; it is easy to run up a $40,000 bill to get ready for the next step, OT VII. OT ability drills for a few 'thou more constituted old OT VI. "Drills dealing with exteriorization, emotions, and sensations. The drills were supposed to be done exterior. Replaced by New OT VI: A course which trains the Pre-OT on how to solo audit Solo NOTs. Available at FSO (Flag). 14 HCOBs." - Jonathon Barbera.

OT VII
and still more? On OT VII one does NOTS, New Era Dianetics for Operating Thetans, solo. New OT VII is cheaper than New OT V, as only the six month C/S'ing and the final certainly check are paid for and the main work is left to the mark himself. Old OT VII was projection of intention and polish up for a few more 'thou...and you thought shouting was all you needed to project your intention. "A series of processes, drills, and training steps directed at intention. Replaced by New OT VII: the purpose of this level is the further ridding of body thetans. Done at FSO (Flag) and at home for two to three years. Product is an OT." - Jonathon Barbera.

OT VIII;
Rumours are that the EP of this level is to cognite that Hubbard is god. After US $360,000, Hubbard had better be god, goddamn it, otherwise you've just been royally duped! Will you gain god-like abilities yourself? Plonk down the US $360,000 or so to get to this stratospheric level, and find out...or you could rent a clue for ten cents and buy a nice house and a couple cars with the money you'd save. OT VIII is the top of the current Grade Chart - OT IX won't be released until all the present Orgs are the size of the old Saint Hill Organization in East Grinstead, England, in the '60s - not until hell freezes over, in other words. The Bridge, or Gradation Chart of Human Awareness and Abilities, tops out at OT 15, in some versions, although information is sketchy for the last few. OT 8 is a big expensive mystery, only delivered on the newspeak-named Scientology cruiseliner "Freewinds" out on the Caribbean. People who have completed this level have said that it is a review of all of the person's auditing and a verification/ nullification of discoveries the person has made about himself, that it is Route 1 and 2 from the Creation of Human ability book, that it involves looking into your past auditing folders in order to spot any moments where you were being somebody else, e.g. past life identities, which you have discovered on Int Rundown or NED and any body thetans you have unleashed on OT III, OT IV, OT V, OT VI, OT VII and on Lists L10, L11 and L12, then a meter check to see if these identities are right or wrong items. At the end of this new process (New OT VIII), you will have recovered all of your own time track, supposedly. Two slightly different sets of the complete process have been posted to alt.religion.scientology, allegedly from people who have finished the level on the Freewinds. These procedures do indeed involved the 8th dynamic (god), as well as other steps, including material from A History of Man.


haha listen to this...

Tom Cruise is an OT level 7. This level gives you the ability to fly and move stuff with your mind. It is rumored that the highest level in Scientology, OT level 8, informs you that L. Ron Hubbard is the antichrist. The most interesting part of OT8 is that it gives you the ability to kill people with your mind. There is an OT level 15, but Scientologists believe that none of us will ever see it in our lifetime. According to them, OT 15 doesn't happen until sometime in the distant future.

Sam Vimes

i'm going to walk into that place in abbey street and say:

i was told i have a dirty mind so i came here to get my brain washed


/cheesy drumroll


i'll get my coat

$tewi3

john_dub wrote:

What do ya mean "it doesnt exist"?, thats like saying "what are you playing football for? its just a made up game that people created to pass the time. it doesnt even exist" Religion exists in as much as certain people believe in it, you might not thats not to say that its not there

So sorry wat i was ment to say is that god doesnt exist so the whole thing about different religions and which one to follow is pointless. Like wats the point in playing all matches in the FA cup you beat every other team but theres no reward at the end of it. plus repeating myself religion is mostly geographical (ie im guessing that 80% of ppl here are catholic). if i was writing this from iraq there might be a chance id be muslim. then you get your crazy hollywood celebs that have to set the trend and join somethin thats crazy like tom and scientology or crazy madona and her jewish faith thats totally changed her and britanys life. SURE. can i join 2

Nevyn

Fair enough you are entitle to the your point but why on earth are you posting in a forum that is for the disscusion of the very thing you have no time for ?

$tewi3

Thaedydal wrote:

Fair enough you are entitle to the your point but why on earth are you posting in a forum that is for the disscusion of the very thing you have no time for ?

cause GOD gives me the right 2!!!!!!!

and tom cruise