Hand from Fitz 100

White Knight

Ok, I am not one for posting a hand but this hand is bugging me and i want to know if I should have gotten off it as i thought i played it ok (obviously not!)

The player that won the hand had been chatting to a couple players at the table and i had picked up he had came 3rd in the Kilkenny Open. I have played with him about 3 times in red cow and all info i had on him, i believe he is a good player and although only a few hands had been played at the table, he confirmed this with his moves.

I have 3500, villain about 5500 and blinds 25/50, I am in seat 7 on my first SB, villain is button. I am dealt QQ and after three limpers i make it 250. MP calls as does button.

Flop 966 rainbow, i am first to act. I think about it for a few seconds and bet 500 (good bet?). MP thinks about it staring me down, laughs and folds! Villain calls.

Turn Jd bringing a flush draw. I check (comments) and villain bets 1000. I have 1750 left and go all in. He insta calls and turns over A6. At this point i utter why are you playing that crap and as he is sitting beside me, he hears me and replys "I'm on the button." (comments)

could/should i have gotten off it?

Goodluck2me

If your playing in the red cow with this guy you should nearly have expected a pre flop raise with A6.... maybe put a feeler bet out on the turn without committing your self and if he flat calls or raises then let it go.

ianmc38

Betting this flop is bad. Pushing the turn is even worse

White Knight

ianmc38 wrote:

Betting this flop is bad. Pushing the turn is even worse

so i should have checked it down in order to minimize losses?

Goodluck2me

White Knight wrote:

so i should have checked it down in order to minimize losses?

no i think a bet on the flop is the appropriate play here, if he is holding AK why give him a free card? bet and see where you are, if he bets after you check you have no idea where you are. you were unlucky he had the 6, but TT/JJ could be betting here too.

White Knight

2 hands previous the player had AQ and had called a 250 bet from KJ. flop was 10,10,2 check,check. Turn 2. check, check. River A. he then called a 300 bet with AQ. The only other hand i seen him play had been AJ.

Maybe it was my own fault for not putting him on A6 kinda hand

Goodluck2me

what you need to know here is that if KJ bet would he have called? you see you have no idea what he has until he calls. if the Ace hit on the turn you'd be wondering why you didnt bet.

ianmc38

White Knight wrote:

so i should have checked it down in order to minimize losses?

I would fold on the turn in an instant. What do you think you're beating here?
A9/AJ or a bluff.

You've raised preflop and bet on the flop. this guy must put you on an overpair, so i think it's pretty obvious that we're behind at this stage.

5starpool

I was at that table when that happened. It looked like the old 'Ah he couldn't have called with a 6 could he?' move that I brainfart out every now and then too.

QQ got beaten in that seat a while later too. Not a good seat for them.

Iago

5starpool wrote:

QQ got beaten in that seat a while later too. Not a good seat for them.

There is no good seat for QQ or JJ for that matter

5starpool

or TT vs 33 as I found out last night

White Knight

5starpool wrote:

or TT vs 33 as I found out last night

what seat were u in mate?

5starpool

White Knight wrote:

what seat were u in mate?

Seat 4, Leslie was on my right.

White Knight

Oh alright well nice to meet you .. or well be at table with ya! unlucky on your exit.

5starpool

Oh no, I didn't exit on that hand. I had 1 yellow chip left and the blinds at 3/6. I managed to get it up to 3600 in a nearly great escape but then my house of cards came tumbling down.

Poker & Pints

I think you could have done a couple of things. I think a check on the flop works well enough here if you play a little more conservative. You might have saved a lot of chips with the conservative approach. On the flip side I think the 500 bet on the flop only gets you in trouble in these situations. I like to overbet the flop, because if the guy has the trips the tendency is to come over the top right away. I think the 500 bet helps the guy set the trap here. Raising allin on the turn I think was the worst mistake of this hand, the extra 750 offers no benefit. Could the guy have played KK, AA here? Or maybe even 99...after all he did call the raise preflop and you did seem to think he played reasonable hands before. Its tough to lay it down, but you would still have had 1750. ALL IMO though. GL

Rnger

goodluck2me wrote:

no i think a bet on the flop is the appropriate play here, if he is holding AK why give him a free card? bet and see where you are, if he bets after you check you have no idea where you are. you were unlucky he had the 6, but TT/JJ could be betting here too.

I think its unlikely for him to limp on the button with AK/JJ/TT. Giving a free card is not disastrous. Although I bet any flop that comes down almost all the time against one player in this position and im beginning to see the difficulties that arise from this

Rnger

Poker & Pints wrote:

...Raising allin on the turn I think was the worst mistake of this hand, the extra 750 offers no benefit. ...Its tough to lay it down, but you would still have had 1750. ALL IMO though. GL

He actually has 2750 left and raises an extra 1750 on the turn, all the more reason to fold.

White Knight

Rnger wrote:

He actually has 2750 left and raises an extra 1750 on the turn, all the more reason to fold.

I should have easily got away from it. Amazing how thought process can change in light of day.

ianmc38

If you bet this flop and and get called, you MUST check-fold the turn.

Checking this flop gets you to showdown cheaper. It loses you less against a 6 and wins you more against 77/88/TT/JJ or a lone 9. Hence checking is far superior to betting. IMHO of course.

spectre

ianmc38 wrote:

I would fold on the turn in an instant. What do you think you're beating here?
A9/AJ or a bluff.

You've raised preflop and bet on the flop. this guy must put you on an overpair, so i think it's pretty obvious that we're behind at this stage.

I don't think this is a fair range of hands you've put the villain on. He could also have something like 77, 88 possibly even a pair lower than 6.

White Knight would probably be betting this flop with AK/AQ as well as over pairs to the board. There are 32 hands of AK/AQ and 30 overpair holdings. For this reason, the villain could easily call the flop bet with a low-mid pair and evaluate on the turn.

If I were the villain, I would played the hand the same way with 77 or 88
until White Knight's push.

Doctor Fell

I don't think there's anything wrong with the "villain's" play here at all. There were 3 limpers (including himself), plus BB = 200 chips. White Knight makes it 250 and MP calls so there's now 650 in the pot. It's 200 more to him to call so he's getting better than 3 to 1 for his money. And crucially it's only 200 more to him, out of a stack of 5.5K. So, he's investing 3.5% of his stack at odds of just over 3 to 1. It's not that bad a play at all. You were just unlucky.
For what it's worth, I probably would have raised more pre-flop if there 3 limpers like that.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Betting this flop is bad. Pushing the turn is even worse

I dont agree in this instance. The pot is big, we have likely the best hand, and we dont like to see A or K.

Hitman Actual

Doctor Fell wrote:

I don't think there's anything wrong with the "villain's" play here at all. There were 3 limpers (including himself), plus BB = 200 chips. White Knight makes it 250 and MP calls so there's now 650 in the pot. It's 200 more to him to call so he's getting better than 3 to 1 for his money. And crucially it's only 200 more to him, out of a stack of 5.5K. So, he's investing 3.5% of his stack at odds of just over 3 to 1. It's not that bad a play at all. You were just unlucky.
For what it's worth, I probably would have raised more pre-flop if there 3 limpers like that.

I actually think a call with A6 is terrible here. What's he hoping to hit? (Exactly what he did hit, but good flops for A6 in a raised pot are few and far between). There's also three more players to act after him, so there's no guarantee he's closing the action. It's a donkey call, imo.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I dont agree in this instance. The pot is big, we have likely the best hand, and we dont like to see A or K.

Betting is ok if we're prepared to give it up on the turn. I don't think a worse hand is calling the flop and betting on the turn.

5starpool

lenny_leonard wrote:

I actually think a call with A6 is terrible here. What's he hoping to hit? (Exactly what he did hit, but good flops for A6 in a raised pot are few and far between). There's also three more players to act after him, so there's no guarantee he's closing the action. It's a donkey call, imo.

Wait for it...... They were soooooted

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

If you bet this flop and and get called, you MUST check-fold the turn.

Checking this flop gets you to showdown cheaper. It loses you less against a 6 and wins you more against 77/88/TT/JJ or a lone 9. Hence checking is far superior to betting. IMHO of course.

This is not true Ian.

I think your average player can call with far more hands on the flop, than you believe.
I also think that this same average player can bet the turn with far more hands than only those that beat you.

Consider 88 here - ... this is a good flop for 88, so calling is ok. When the turn is checked, then betting is good to protect the hand Vs something like AJ/AK/etc ...

I like heros play in this hand.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Betting is ok if we're prepared to give it up on the turn. I don't think a worse hand is calling the flop and betting on the turn.

I think you give our opponents too much credit. I can see 9T here, or 98 or K9 or A9 or 88 or 77 or ..... etc you get the gist.

I think some of these can even call the turn check/push.

Doctor Fell

lenny_leonard wrote:

I actually think a call with A6 is terrible here. What's he hoping to hit? (Exactly what he did hit, but good flops for A6 in a raised pot are few and far between). There's also three more players to act after him, so there's no guarantee he's closing the action. It's a donkey call, imo.

No, you are wrong there - "villain" was on the button. So he is closing the action - nobody acts after him as SB raised.
And like I said he is investing a mere 3.5% of his tank, at odds of 3/1 to hit a favourable flop! I think it's an OK call. Certainly not a "terrible" call. :eek:

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I like heros play in this hand.

Are you serious. you''d check-raise the turn all-in? It's not like we're sitting on a monster. I'd often call with 56suited on the button in this situation. I'm not surprised to see a 6 at all and i certainly wouldn't be going broke in this hand. 77, 88 or 99 could easily play the hand like this, but so could AA and KK.

Going broke in this hand is bad and there must be better lines available than those taken by the hero in this hand.

5starpool

ianmc38 wrote:

77 or 88 could eaisly play the hand like this, but so could AA and KK.

You can see someone playing AA/KK like this? From the button with the blinds and 2 limpers in the pot. I really doubt/hope you would not play these with a preflop limp Ian.

White Knight

ianmc38 wrote:

Are you serious. you''d check-raise the turn all-in? It's not like we're sitting on a monster. I'd often call with 56suited on the button in this situation. I'm not surprised to see a 6 at all and i certainly wouldn't be going broke in this hand. 77 or 88 could eaisly play the hand like this, but so could AA and KK.

Going broke in this hand is bad and there must be better lines available than those taken by the hero in this hand.

I agree with Ian as far as going broke in this hand espcially considering stack sizes in relation to blinds ...

ianmc38

5starpool wrote:

I really doubt/hope you would not play these with a preflop limp Ian.

Obviously not, but i've seen it happen.

Limping from the button would rule out KK/AA/AK (i thought he called a preflop raise)

99 could also play this hand exactly like this.

Norwich Fan Rob

he cant have AA, KK or AK, given he has some good results and limping these on the button here is brutal imo.

i dont like playing the A6 into a raise either, as you can be drawn into something if the A hits, but maybe he was looking for 2p+ or bin it.

I think the biggest mistake was the pre flop raise, its too small with QQ and 4 people in the pot, make it 400+, to get proper hand definition from the villians.

Rnger

5starpool wrote:

Wait for it...... They were soooooted

On the button, calling with A6s and with A6o makes a difference to me. Most of the time I wouldnt limp at all with A6o but I definetly would with A6s. Same goes for the call of the 200 raise. Possible nut flush draw especially on the button makes it a far more valueable hand in my mind.

or am i a donkey

ianmc38

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

I think the biggest mistake was the pre flop raise, its too small with QQ and 4 people in the pot

I think we can all agree on that.

5starpool

Rnger wrote:

On the button, calling with A6s and with A6o makes a difference to me. Most of the time I wouldnt limp at all with A6o but I definetly would with A6s. Same goes for the call of the 200 raise. Possible nut flush draw especially on the button makes it a far more valueable hand in my mind.

or am i a donkey

I will always at least limp in LP with a suited A. I am not criticising the play here as I agree he is getting decent odds/incentive to call the raise after one of the other limpers called too. Raise too small is the pertinent point I think here. May not have got rid of the button, but it would be less of an excuse for him to play if it was 400 or more.

Hitman Actual

Doctor Fell wrote:

No, you are wrong there - "villain" was on the button. So he is closing the action - nobody acts after him as SB raised.
And like I said he is investing a mere 3.5% of his tank, at odds of 3/1 to hit a favourable flop! I think it's an OK call. Certainly not a "terrible" call. :eek:

Sorry, just reread the OP. Originally thought that hero raised after the three limpers, and before the button acted (so button would be getting poorer odds, and have players still to act). With that in mind, the call is ok, and one I'd make myself.

Will pay more attention next time!

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Are you serious. you''d check-raise the turn all-in? It's not like we're sitting on a monster. I'd often call with 56suited on the button in this situation. I'm not surprised to see a 6 at all and i certainly wouldn't be going broke in this hand. 77, 88 or 99 could easily play the hand like this, but so could AA and KK.

Going broke in this hand is bad and there must be better lines available than those taken by the hero in this hand.

I think you once again give a whole lot of credit to our opponents.

Hero made a reasonable raise preflop. There was 225 in the pot, and he made it 250 to play. thats pretty reasonable. Got two callers, so the pot on the flop is 800 or so.
He leads for 500 here, and gets one caller - we can still easily have the best hand here.
Turn has a pot of 1800, and we have 2750 left, so we check, which seems ok, and raise all in when he bets, which also seems reasonable, as its only pot-sized (actually less than pot).

This time - villain turns up with the 6, but many more times villain has A9 or T9 and has 5 outs, and either folds the turn (which is fine) or calls when drawing thin. He could also have two outs (with 88 or 77 or TT or even JJ).

White Knight

Fuzz, How would you have played the same hand?

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I think you once again give a whole lot of credit to our opponents.

Hero made a reasonable raise preflop. There was 225 in the pot, and he made it 250 to play. thats pretty reasonable. Got two callers, so the pot on the flop is 800 or so.
He leads for 500 here, and gets one caller - we can still easily have the best hand here.
Turn has a pot of 1800, and we have 2750 left, so we check, which seems ok, and raise all in when he bets, which also seems reasonable, as its only pot-sized (actually less than pot).

This time - villain turns up with the 6, but many more times villain has A9 or T9 and has 5 outs, and either folds the turn (which is fine) or calls when drawing thin. He could also have two outs (with 88 or 77 or TT or even JJ).

So are you saying you play the hand the same way and go busto?

azzeretti

:GRUNCH: (Do we use this on Boards!?)
Anyway, I am taking a stab at this without the benifit of reading the other replies - It might help me with my thinking etc.

Its a tough one, but depending on the table I might be inclinded to limp with QQ with 3 limpers in front of me, and one to come. There is an argument for the limpers to call if you give them the correct odds.
I think the raise isn't that bad though and I am certainly continuing with a big, possibly overbet, on the flop - regardless of position, in this instance. However, I would most likely start to worry a little if I am called or check/raised. If called I am check/folding the turn and getting the fcuk out of Dodge. After all, what are you ahead of here apart from a bluff?
I don't think pushing is the best of moves as you are more than likely behind here, bigtime.

He's response "I was on the button", was good for more than one reason. He was getting about 3.5/1 to call (if there are 3 limpers and him before your raise and one MP caller) plus he gets the benifit of position for the rest of the betting.

I find myself limping alot in EP with JJ/QQ, especially near the beginning of tournaments, later on when the blinds increase and the numbers go down I usually would only come in for a raise. I have learned, from some of the guys here, and actually playing, it very difficult to call a reraise with JJ/QQ from EP (depending on standard of the table of course) But I am still trying to get out of Donkey school!

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

So are you saying you play the hand the same way and go busto?

Where did I say that?

I dont dislike heros play - I think its reasonable. I think that you will get beaten by some1 with a 6 ... but you will also get lots of value out of ppl with T9 and A9 and K9 and J9 and 88 and TT and such, also.

I think that check/folding the turn is really weak ... you are asking to get floated a lot if you exhibit that behaviour.

5starpool

azzeretti wrote:

:GRUNCH: (Do we use this on Boards!?)

Huh? i am not 'au fait' with this expression.

azzeretti wrote:

Its a tough one, but depending on the table I might be inclinded to limp with QQ with 3 limpers in front of me, and one to come. There is an argument for the limpers to call if you give them the correct odds.
I think the raise isn't that bad though and I am certainly continuing with a big, possibly overbet, on the flop - regardless of position, in this instance. However, I would most likely start to worry a little if I am called or check/raised. If called I am check/folding the turn and getting the fcuk out of Dodge. After all, what are you ahead of here apart from a bluff?
I don't think pushing is the best of moves as you are more than likely behind here, bigtime.

He's response "I was on the button", was good for more than one reason. He was getting about 3.5/1 to call (if there are 3 limpers and him before your raise and one MP caller) plus he gets the benifit of position for the rest of the betting.

I find myself limping alot in EP with JJ/QQ, especially near the beginning of tournaments, later on when the blinds increase and the numbers go down I usually would only come in for a raise. I have learned, from some of the guys here, and actually playing, it very difficult to call a reraise with JJ/QQ from EP (depending on standard of the table of course) But I am still trying to get out of Donkey school!

There is a big difference with 'limping from EP' and just completing in the blinds with QQ. Limping in EP may allow you to reraise, disguise the strength of your hand with a raise etc, but I think it is still a questionable play. Limping from the blinds is just asking for trouble. What hands will you raise with from the blinds if not QQ? Do you want to play QQ out of position with 4 other players with no raise preflop? That is real Hail Mary stuff.

I know what you are saying about JJ/QQ being reraised, but this is something that I will be willing to chance in this situation. EP preflop is not the same as the blinds as I stated above anyhow.

fuzzbox

azzeretti wrote:

:GRUNCH: (Do we use this on Boards!?)
Anyway, I am taking a stab at this without the benifit of reading the other replies - It might help me with my thinking etc.

Its a tough one, but depending on the table I might be inclinded to limp with QQ with 3 limpers in front of me, and one to come. There is an argument for the limpers to call if you give them the correct odds.
I think the raise isn't that bad though and I am certainly continuing with a big, possibly overbet, on the flop - regardless of position, in this instance. However, I would most likely start to worry a little if I am called or check/raised. If called I am check/folding the turn and getting the fcuk out of Dodge. After all, what are you ahead of here apart from a bluff?
I don't think pushing is the best of moves as you are more than likely behind here, bigtime.

He's response "I was on the button", was good for more than one reason. He was getting about 3.5/1 to call (if there are 3 limpers and him before your raise and one MP caller) plus he gets the benifit of position for the rest of the betting.

I find myself limping alot in EP with JJ/QQ, especially near the beginning of tournaments, later on when the blinds increase and the numbers go down I usually would only come in for a raise. I have learned, from some of the guys here, and actually playing, it very difficult to call a reraise with JJ/QQ from EP (depending on standard of the table of course) But I am still trying to get out of Donkey school!

Az - you are burning up a LOT of value if you do that with JJ/QQ. They are big hands - play them such.
Overbetting the flop is counter-productive if you want to win it there. That would mean that you are effectively bluffing. You figure to have the best hand most often, and you want to get paid - betting is good - and you dont need to overbet. 500 is a good number into an 800 pot.

I would usually lead the turn too, as I would still figure to have the best hand, and I would still believe that I could get paid off from worse hands. But I also sometimes check/raise the turn on this type of board against ppl who like to "float". Yeah, sometimes I get bust against 99 or 6x, but other times I get a big bet out of 88 or 77 that would fold to turn aggression, but would bet to a turn check.

Since this is a live tourney, I tend to believe that my opponents are less good than the opponents I regularly play online, and thus they will pay off here with a LOT more than trips or better.

I probably get busto here, but I probably make it a little more preflop, mostly because I am out of position, and I usually would make a shutout raise from the blinds if I raise in that position - so I prolly make it 350 to go, which seems a nice number.

JuliusFranco

ianmc38 wrote:

So are you saying you play the hand the same way and go busto?

just because the here went busto here dosesn't mean his play was bad. I think the hero played this ok

Unfortunatly for the hero, the villian played quite well here too imo.

I would have played slightly differently, specifically in relation to the pre-flop raise.
The aim with a pre flop raise here is to take the 225 in blinds and maybe get one caller.
Most of the time when I see 2 or 3+ limpers I'll pot it preflop, in this instance that would mean making it 300. However, as we're still in the early stages of the tournament, it's just too easy for some players to call raises like this (when they've got reasonable stacks). When one player calls then usually one or two will follow...for "value". For this reason, I'd tend to make the raise a bit bigger, maybe even 400 (wha 8 times the BB!!) if it was a loose table

azzeretti

5starpool wrote:

Huh? i am not 'au fait' with this expression.

Sorry this is used on 2+2 to indicate that I have not read anybodyd reply to this post.

There is a big difference with 'limping from EP' and just completing in the blinds with QQ. Limping in EP may allow you to reraise, disguise the strength of your hand with a raise etc, but I think it is still a questionable play. Limping from the blinds is just asking for trouble. What hands will you raise with from the blinds if not QQ? Do you want to play QQ out of position with 4 other players with no raise preflop? That is real Hail Mary stuff.

I understand what you are saying but there is also an chance that the raise from the SB will not loose any of the limpers - due to the decent odds they are getting to call. Do you respect every SB's raise as being strong? I don't have a problem raising from the blinds with QQ with less people in front but in this case they are more likely to call for value with whatever they thought was OK to flat call with in the first place -i.e low suited connectos, low-mid pair etc. I would certainly entertain raising from this position with fewer players but I can't see the benifit of building a pot where the chances of callers is high and then out of position for the rest.
Am I way off here in my thinking?

5starpool

azzeretti wrote:

Sorry this is used on 2+2 to indicate that I have not read anybodyd reply to this post.

Me no read-y 2+2

azzeretti wrote:

Am I way off here in my thinking?

If you are not going to raise from the small blind because 'there are too many limpers, too much value' when will you raise? More Limpers = Bigger Raise. If someone thinks you are on the steal from the blinds then great, you have a good hand to play with, and if it plays out like the hand in this thread then unlucky.

If you happen to win just the blinds with a raise then thats ok too as you are out of position and there were some limpers. If you do not raise and the flop comes 872 with 2 spades and you bet with your everpair and are either called or raised what do you do then? You could be up against a whole host of holdings whereas if you had raised preflop it would have allowed you to at least start to define their holdings. If you did not raise enough preflop though then it somewhat invalidates that too, as the value thing comes back into it.

With these hands you want to play heads up ideally postflop as the majority of the time you will only have 1 pair. Unless you are trying the 'I wouldn't overraise with a big hand' trick don't go mad with the preflop raise, but make it expensive enough not to entice all the limpers in, while allowing a range of hands that you have beat the potential to make a looseish call.

That's my take anyhow.

ianmc38

JuliusFranco wrote:

Unfortunatly for the hero, the villian played quite well here too imo.

Villain played it like any average Joe. Called a small raise in position with an ok hand. Hit a monster flop. Caleld a bet from QQ. bet after being checked to on the turn and insta-called the small reraise.

It wasn't like Jesus just sat down and played the perfect hand of poker. It's standard play.

5starpool

ianmc38 wrote:

It wasn't like Jesus just sat down and played the perfect hand of poker.QUOTE]
Maybe if he did then McDowell would go away. The publicity would be massive.

Saviour Savours Straight......... The headlines would be great.

Unless you are talking about Chris Ferguson of course.

JuliusFranco

ianmc38 wrote:

Villain played it like any average Joe....
It wasn't like Jesus just sat down and played the perfect hand of poker. It's standard play.

it depends on what the standard is of course

i referred to the fact that the villian didn't shoot his load but let the hero do it first....

Jesus wouldn't shoot his load until just the right moment either...I'll give you that...

he died for our sins you know