Catholic church

jay-me

I think the nuns and priests aren't doing enough to help the homeless in ireland. They have millions of euros worth of property and businesses across the country and from what I can see not much of it is used for charitable causes. Does anyone know what exactly it is that all the money is used for?
Not to mention the vatican is a bank and the most luxurious looking one ive ever seen.

jay-me

http://www.paddydoyle.com/richtopay.html I found this quite interesting. The nuns are allowed to sell property at will as they have done in recent times in dublin 4.

Cantab.

jay-me wrote:

I think the nuns and priests aren't doing enough to help the homeless in ireland.

Absolute codswollop. The nuns and priests of this country do trojan work every single day of their lives until they die. They take vows of poverty and obedience and go about their work in the humblest of manner, day in, day out.

One sees many a celebrety fundraiser on the television these days who, once the big charity night is over, get back into their limos and heathonistic lifestyles feeling good about themselves and making sure everyone knows how much money they donated. But such people have had their reward.

jay-me wrote:

They have millions of euros worth of property and businesses across the country and from what I can see not much of it is used for charitable causes.

Again, absolute rubbish. You obviously know nothing about the Catholic Church and her missions. What good would the church be tomorrow if they just sold off all their land? It is a complex organisation that requires administration just like any other. Of course the Church is undergoing serious change at the moment particularly with regards vocations. Seminaries and convents are lying empty, agreed, and many of these have been sold off to pay for victims of abuse and many other good causes. The private financial affairs of the Church in Ireland are generally not for public consumption, and why should they be?

jay-me wrote:

Does anyone know what exactly it is that all the money is used for?

Why don't you go down to your local parish priest and ask him?

jay-me wrote:

Not to mention the vatican is a bank and the most luxurious looking one ive ever seen.

Yeah, and the Pope and all the cardinals spend it all on bling bling spanish villas, yachts, private helicopters, fulfilling their gambling habit and prostitutes... Open your eyes and stop reading the Sunday Independant for heaven's sake.

jay-me

Maybe you need to open your own eyes if you can keep ur head out of your a*s long enough. For instance if you have a look at the size of the convent based in D.4 and surrounding land which is unused and worth its weight in gold and the furnishings your so called impoverished nuns live with you might have a different insight. Also there is three priests in the local parish each with his own three to four bedroom house to live alone in with a value of over 2 million per house.
furthermore the nuns have houses that are literaly there for meetings that take place once or twice a year if any of this wastefullness was channeled towards helping the poor we wouldn't have the rate of homelessness we do.

Banphrionsa

Cannot speak for all priests or nuns of the Catholic church in Ireland, but the ones I know around Gaillimh don't drive new BMWs or spend a lot of time on their own personal laptops playing games or posting to these boards. I am overseas right now, and nearby is a convent of the Sisters of Social Charity. Visited a sister there a few days ago, and her room had a lot fewer goodies than my flat had. Looked pretty Spartan. No TV, no laptop, very few clothes or shoes, but she did have her own CD player (but not an Ipod). They have a common room that they share, like a family, and there's one TV with a DVD player, and an old stereo for music.

Dades

jay-me wrote:

For instance if you have a look at the size of the convent based in D.4 and surrounding land which is unused and worth its weight in gold

Isn't the Elm Park development being built on land that was sold by the Nuns?

robindch

> Does anyone know what exactly it is that all the money is used for?

The church has massive assets which makes it the second-largest owner of land in the country after the State itself. However, it's cashflow is quite small by comparison and I believe that the majority of that is funded by bequests and the weekly collection. Unfortunately, the finances of the church in Ireland do not seem to be published in any form which would make it easy to work out the full picture (does anybody know any sources?). But it's certainly an exercise that would be worth carrying out, though, not to mention rather fascinating, given their highly questionable conduct over asset and cash payments to the Residential Institutions Redress Board.

BrianCalgary

My comment to jay_me is; you obviuosly have a heart for helping the homeless. Why not wander down to your local parish, or one in an impoverished area and ask what it is you can do to help.

The Holy Spirit has given each of us gifts and passions. Mine lie in teaching, evangelism and my passions are sport and kids. There are others in our church who work with The Mustard Seed and Inn from the Cold locally and Samaritans Purse and Arms of Jesus globally. We have different jobs within the body.

There are thoses within the Catholic church who have the passions and gifts. The RC church is slowly recognising this and allowing their members to be involved in ministries. If you don't care to work alongside nuns and priests, no problem we can get you in touch with a ministry that works in your local area so you can work with thoses who are less fortunate. We have a gal that is on her way to Ireland to work with drug addicts.

And here I have to agree with robin (hey that's twice in a week:) )With regard to the churches riches, they lack cash flow and since much of the property has been donated over the centuries by people as gifts to be used by the church, they are in a difficult position as trustees of said property.

Cantab.

jay-me wrote:

Maybe you need to open your own eyes if you can keep ur head out of your a*s long enough. For instance if you have a look at the size of the convent based in D.4 and surrounding land which is unused and worth its weight in gold and the furnishings your so called impoverished nuns live with you might have a different insight.

Does it matter what price the land is worth? Your attitude is just typical of many people these days where they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
You talk about 'so-called impoverished nuns' the implication being that they are somehow living it up. You should maybe open your own eyes, stop criticising others and do something for the homeless yourself.

jay-me wrote:

Also there is three priests in the local parish each with his own three to four bedroom house to live alone in with a value of over 2 million per house.

So? How could priests operate in such areas without a parochial house? Remember, it's not the priests who own the houses, but the Church itself. Also, most parishes these day have at most two priests. The redundant properties have indeed been sold off in these instances. The monies raised are none of your business really.

jay-me wrote:

furthermore the nuns have houses that are literaly there for meetings that take place once or twice a year if any of this wastefullness was channeled towards helping the poor we wouldn't have the rate of homelessness we do.

Would you be as demanding of the state? In that, would you demand that we, the state, sell off all properties to help homeless people?

And since people have funded the Catholic Church from the bottom of their hearts, how can the Church authorities (the trustees of such properties as BrianCalgary pointed out) just sell off something that was given to them out of humble generosity?

Excelsior

Can I just point as well, to further clarify the original posters view, that the property is not somehow owned centrally by the Church and administrated by a Board Of Property (perhaps consisting of a self-flagellating monk, an evil Cardinal from Latin America and one decent priest who goes to Bon Jovi concerts with the young people ). The property is owned by the different orders that make up the church. There are 100s of them from the very famous Jesuits to the as yet unratified Sacred Order of Boards.ie.

Furthermore, after the State, the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland is by a huge distance, the largest provider of social services in this country. Speaking as a member of the Presbyterian Church, the example set by the clergy and laity of the Roman Catholic church is a constant source of inspiration. Fr. McVeigh is, for me, the perfect example of a man bringing the full weight of his faith and vocation into his life with the lowest and most trodden on parts of Irish society.

Rev Hellfire

Its amazing easy for one party to look at another and say you're not doing enough to help the poor.

The question I would ask the OP is what exactly are you doing to help the poor?

jay-me

I am a proud and hard working member of Focus Ireland and I do all that is in my power to help homeless and drug addicts alike.

Asiaprod

jay-me wrote:

I am a proud and hard working member of Focus Ireland and I do all that is in my power to help homeless and drug addicts alike.

Good answer, well done. I got a soft spot for reforming addicts and anyone who helps them. Thats all it takes for them to make the final push, to know someone does care.

Rev Hellfire

jay-me wrote:

I am a proud and hard working member of Focus Ireland and I do all that is in my power to help homeless and drug addicts alike.

good for you.

UU

The Catholic do do a lot of work to help the homeless. A Jesuit priest came into our school to talk about his work - he actually won an award for his work. I think it is wrong to label everyone in the RC Church under one brush. Of course, there are those who don't do enough and the Vatican are unbelievably wealthy. Did you know that they're the biggest shareholders in the world! They even have solid bars of gold in their vaults and each one has a cross imprinted on it.

The problem is that many Catholic orders receive little money from the Vatican. I was talking to a Carmelite friar and he told me most of the money they receive is charitable donations! Sure the parish near me had to wait over a year just to get some funds to get the church roof fixed and most of the money for it came from the local community via fundraising and donations!

BrianCalgary

Hey Jay-me

I peeked at the Focus Ireland website. Way to go. I love to see people putting their passions and gifts to help others.

Fuinseog

jay-me wrote: »

I think the nuns and priests aren't doing enough to help the homeless in ireland. They have millions of euros worth of property and businesses across the country and from what I can see not much of it is used for charitable causes. Does anyone know what exactly it is that all the money is used for?
Not to mention the vatican is a bank and the most luxurious looking one ive ever seen.

yeah, that Father Peter McVerry does nothing for the poor along with the soup kitchens run in inner city dublin.

angeleyes

Fuinseog wrote: »

yeah, that Father Peter McVerry does nothing for the poor along with the soup kitchens run in inner city dublin.

Fr. McVerry is exceptional and does tremendous work. There are priests and nuns who work with the poor - remember a few weeks ago some nuns in the U.S. got a rap in the knuckles from the Vatican about their work for the poor. Link

From my local area we have a priest who works in Kenya and comes home every two years on holiday and is stunned at how good we have it here considering where he works people have nothing but seem happier.

On the other side, I see priests in my diocese driving €30K cars, getting freebie trips to Lourdes Medjugorgie etc from parishes/diocese and fine dining. The Bishop in my diocese drives a very nice Audi lives in a palace and has a fondness for good wines.

Brer Fox

angeleyes wrote: »

Fr. McVerry is exceptional and does tremendous work. There are priests and nuns who work with the poor - remember a few weeks ago some nuns in the U.S. got a rap in the knuckles from the Vatican about their work for the poor. Link

From my local area we have a priest who works in Kenya and comes home every two years on holiday and is stunned at how good we have it here considering where he works people have nothing but seem happier.

On the other side, I see priests in my diocese driving €30K cars, getting freebie trips to Lourdes Medjugorgie etc from parishes/diocese and fine dining. The Bishop in my diocese drives a very nice Audi lives in a palace and has a fondness for good wines.

They weren't called up on their work with the poor - they attracted the attention of the Vatican because of their promotion of abortion and other evils.

prinz

jay-me wrote: »

I am a proud and hard working member of Focus Ireland and I do all that is in my power to help homeless and drug addicts alike.

Focus Ireland, that was founded by and still presided over by a nun, correct?

Holy be! It's happened again.....

ChocolateChip

angeleyes wrote: »

Fr. McVerry is exceptional and does tremendous work. There are priests and nuns who work with the poor - remember a few weeks ago some nuns in the U.S. got a rap in the knuckles from the Vatican about their work for the poor. Link

From my local area we have a priest who works in Kenya and comes home every two years on holiday and is stunned at how good we have it here considering where he works people have nothing but seem happier.

On the other side, I see priests in my diocese driving €30K cars, getting freebie trips to Lourdes Medjugorgie etc from parishes/diocese and fine dining. The Bishop in my diocese drives a very nice Audi lives in a palace and has a fondness for good wines.

You really need to stop stalking the clergy.

A ridiculous thread. Priests and nuns give up their whole lives to serve God and His people-that's selflessness. In addition, they visit elderly people living alone, give talks in schools as well as many other charitable acts.

Sounds like your issue is with Catholicism in general.

angeleyes

ChocolateChip wrote: »

You really need to stop stalking the clergy.

A ridiculous thread. Priests and nuns give up their whole lives to serve God and His people-that's selflessness. In addition, they visit elderly people living alone, give talks in schools as well as many other charitable acts.

Sounds like your issue is with Catholicism in general.

I am not stalking clergy or anyone, just making observations of what I have seen over the years. Some clergy are wonderful and others well you just have to wonder. But then again no one is perfect not even me or you CChip.

martinedwards

as to clergy driving decent cars, have you checked the milage they can clock up?

I don't begrudge my clergy some comfort and reliablilty in thier otherwise hectic day.

one of the big problems with property owned by churches is that many bequests have strings attached.

"I leave this house to the church FOR USE WITH POLISH IMMIGRANTS"

what happens in 10 years when there are no more Poles but 150 homeless Lithuanians?

problems, that's what!!

OK, that's an exageration, but you get the drift.

I agree that there is a public image that the church is sitting on billions and that the higher ups are all like Bishop Brennan in Father Ted with the champagne and shared baths.

this is obviously not ALWAYS true!!

georgieporgy

angeleyes wrote: »

I am not stalking clergy or anyone, just making observations of what I have seen over the years. Some clergy are wonderful and others well you just have to wonder. But then again no one is perfect not even me or you CChip.

Clergy (diocesan) don't take a vow of poverty. If the child of a billionaire decides to become a priest he may still inherit his share of his parents estate and keep it to do with as he wishes.

BaBaBluesheep

I agree completely OP..the church is very wasteful and don't do enough to help the needy in THIS country..all they're interested in is pouring money in to poor countries in the hopes of converting ppl to catholicism..it's a power game..and then the pope and his companions like their jewel encrusted hats/surroundings etc..it's sickening I stopped sending in xmas shoebox appeal items when I called the number on the leaflet to clarify who the boxes go to (they didn't mention they were affiliated with a religious group) and they set up camps, in countries where xmas isn't being celebrated..'where they read bible stories and play bible games'?!..such selfishness..I'd rather go on my hols and seek out organisations working altruistically, and have done so on many occasions.. ..as for nuns and priests..unfortunately they are the pope's hard working little sheep, roped in to do the pope's work, treated to their nice breaks/cars...but as ppl, they are generally, good,honest, humble people (not so unusual) who don't know that they are being duped by a higher power.

Benny_Cake

BaBaBluesheep wrote: »

I agree completely OP..the church is very wasteful and don't do enough to help the needy in THIS country..all they're interested in is pouring money in to poor countries in the hopes of converting ppl to catholicism..it's a power game..and then the pope and his companions like their jewel encrusted hats/surroundings etc..it's sickening I stopped sending in xmas shoebox appeal items when I called the number on the leaflet to clarify who the boxes go to (they didn't mention they were affiliated with a religious group) and they set up camps, in countries where xmas isn't being celebrated..'where they read bible stories and play bible games'?!..such selfishness..I'd rather go on my hols and seek out organisations working altruistically, and have done so on many occasions.. ..as for nuns and priests..unfortunately they are the pope's hard working little sheep, roped in to do the pope's work, treated to their nice breaks/cars...but as ppl, they are generally, good,honest, humble people (not so unusual) who don't know that they are being duped by a higher power.

If you are referring to the Samaritan's Purse Christmas appeal, it has nothing to do with the Catholic church. There is a lot of good being done individual Catholics and other Christians, and by churches. Could things sometimes be improved? Sure. But that doesn't take from the many good works that are being done, and I would suggest that if Christian organisations were to withdraw from charitable work the impact would be immediate and drastic.

daddydick

georgieporgy wrote: »

Clergy (diocesan) don't take a vow of poverty. If the child of a billionaire decides to become a priest he may still inherit his share of his parents estate and keep it to do with as he wishes.

Incorrect - he must give it up to his order or else sign it over to family member and pay gift tax

Manach

Offhand & offtopic legally, I think such a gift to the order would have first to go through independent legal advice because of the nature of the relationship that exists between certain groups of people, which inter alia includes religious orders.

BaBaBluesheep

Benny_Cake wrote: »

If you are referring to the Samaritan's Purse Christmas appeal, it has nothing to do with the Catholic church. There is a lot of good being done individual Catholics and other Christians, and by churches. Could things sometimes be improved? Sure. But that doesn't take from the many good works that are being done, and I would suggest that if Christian organisations were to withdraw from charitable work the impact would be immediate and drastic.

No I don't think it was called Samaritan's Purse...goes to show how many of these misleading missionary groups are setup!I can find out for you if you like..I was handed it at my child's creche..not even the manager of the creche realised it wasn't an ordinary charity-this is deceptive.by asking rhetorically whether things could be bettered doesn't make it alright I'm afraid. Also, you've probably read in my post that I acknowledged the good work of these good ppl but they have ulterior motives...there are countless homeless ppl here in ireland, families on the breadline due to the economic crisis and yet money is still being spent on missionary camps..that says it all..oh and to polish all the priceless treasures at the vatican

kjw47

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Its amazing easy for one party to look at another and say you're not doing enough to help the poor.

The question I would ask the OP is what exactly are you doing to help the poor?

The best thing one can do to help the poor is this--teach them Jesus,s words of truth= Keep on seeking first the kingdom and his( Jehovah) righteousness, and all will be added.

martinedwards

kjw47 wrote: »

The best thing one can do to help the poor is this--teach them Jesus,s words of truth= Keep on seeking first the kingdom and his( Jehovah) righteousness, and all will be added.

and the best way to do this is by serving them, giving them food, shelter and love.

simply preaching at hungry poor folks doesn't fill thier bellies.

Doc Farrell

martinedwards wrote: »

kjw47 wrote: »

The best thing one can do to help the poor is this--teach them Jesus,s words of truth= Keep on seeking first the kingdom and his( Jehovah) righteousness, and all will be added.

and the best way to do this is by serving them, giving them food, shelter and love.

simply preaching at hungry poor folks doesn't fill thier bellies.

A sane voice in this forum! Not on my watch! Post reported for overtly Christian content.

gimmebroadband

Spiritual hunger is more rife, even to the point of starvation - Jesus said to Peter "feed my sheep." (Jn 21:17)

Fanny Cradock

What's all this either or stuff? What exactly are you arguing about?

philologos

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

What's all this either or stuff? What exactly are you arguing about?

Indeed! Do both - Proclaim the Gospel and care for others, tend to spiritual needs, and tend to physical needs.
There's different forms of poverty, spiritual poverty and physical poverty.

georgieporgy

daddydick wrote: »

Incorrect - he must give it up to his order or else sign it over to family member and pay gift tax[/QUOT

What you say is true of members of religious orders but diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty and are free to control their own personal wealth.

but it doesn't necessarily follow that they live a hedonistic lifestyle.

Graces7

Cantab. wrote: »

Absolute codswollop. The nuns and priests of this country do trojan work every single day of their lives until they die. They take vows of poverty and obedience and go about their work in the humblest of manner, day in, day out.

One sees many a celebrety fundraiser on the television these days who, once the big charity night is over, get back into their limos and heathonistic lifestyles feeling good about themselves and making sure everyone knows how much money they donated. But such people have had their reward.


Again, absolute rubbish. You obviously know nothing about the Catholic Church and her missions. What good would the church be tomorrow if they just sold off all their land? It is a complex organisation that requires administration just like any other. Of course the Church is undergoing serious change at the moment particularly with regards vocations. Seminaries and convents are lying empty, agreed, and many of these have been sold off to pay for victims of abuse and many other good causes. The private financial affairs of the Church in Ireland are generally not for public consumption, and why should they be?


Why don't you go down to your local parish priest and ask him?


Yeah, and the Pope and all the cardinals spend it all on bling bling spanish villas, yachts, private helicopters, fulfilling their gambling habit and prostitutes... Open your eyes and stop reading the Sunday Independant for heaven's sake.

This is unrecognisable as the reality of the Church.

Gobsmacked!

As a loyal Catholic deeply concerned here.

They do and have done no more and often less than any other teacher, nurse. social worker or ordinary caring citizen and they have been paid by the state for all their work. As well as all the money they gathered in house to house collections every week.

Almost all the orders are literally millionairs; it was leaked that many nw have Swiss bank accounts containing millions.

NB there was an article on their assets at some stage in the abuse enquiry, no time to seek it but google will find it.
NB also; they are refusing to pay abuse settlements also.

Religious live in utter luxury in Ireland. In a small town near here, they left the convent which needed a few repairs, and built themselves a E12 1/2 million palace. Been there; utter luxury and they are kept by paid staff and never lift a finger themselves. While in the same town, old ones who have worked all their lives, struggle to feed themselves and keep themselves warm. The heart goes out to them while the srs do and give nothing. When I asked the way to the new place, the lady I asked bade me "When you get there, ask them to give us our money back..."

I have visited several of these purpose built retirement houses... Our old ones should be cared for like that but they are not.. all about status are the orders and the priesthood now. All live in abundance and luxury while children go hungry to bed. Shame on them!

Because it was pub lic money, given for their work not for themselves. Houses they were given for their work.. Not to sell to amass great riches. While they abused and starved children, they always ate well...Read Ryan!

The orders and that includes Sr stan of Focus, could feed and care for all the homeless and never miss it.. yet they all demand donations off those who care and have little themsleves.

Food matters; Jesus knew that and always cared for physical needs of others.

Ask google for Mother Teresa's missing millions.

God bless all here who work and give to those in needs, as this small house does where we have only a tiny pension. Better a dinner of herbs where there is love....

Opticom

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

What's all this either or stuff?

Very true.

“‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat,
I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
I was a stranger and you did not invite me in,
I needed clothes and you did not clothe me,
I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matt 25:40-46

We must ask God for his infinite mercy for our own failings, and to receive mercy we must show it to others, and completely trust in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The seven corporal endeavours of mercy

- To feed the hungry
- To give drink to the thirsty
- To clothe the naked
- To shelter the homeless
- To visit the sick
- To visit the imprisoned
- To bury the dead

The seven spiritual endeavours of mercy:

- To counsel the doubtful*
- To instruct the ignorant*
- To admonish the sinner*
- To comfort the sorrowful
- To forgive all injuries
- To bear wrongs patiently
- To pray for the living and the dead

*These require considerable knowledge, skill, patience and humility;

"How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" - Luke 6:42

"Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words." St. Francis of Assisi