Is limping the new raising?

Fatboydim

Is it me or are more players these days limping with the likes of AK AQ KK and AA.

Not a big fan of it myself as that's how I went out of the open - although I was in early position and was playing tight - needing the action - and a raise would have only netted the blinds [But at least I'd still have been in it.]

Any thoughts on the proliferation of this tactic?

Lafortezza

Do you mean limp-reraising or just plain limping to see the flop with AA/KK/AK/AQ?

Ollieboy

yeh Len, seen a lot of it on cash tables too, which I cant understand, limping in a very early position or limping on the button and than they cant let go of it after the flop. Its cost me a lot in the last 2 months and limping with big hands seems to be very common on PP. Hate the tactic myself.

FastMachine

I'm a big fan of limping. At around 5/10 and higher alot of opponents are no longer going to give you their stack with tptk to your overpair. You'll still get the poor players/idiots/newcomers doing it but the opponents you see regularly on the tables and have a feel for your game are often going to be set hunting. Unless you're raising quite frequently, which is not my style, you have to be wary of a set when you get action on the flop and later. I see so many people make a 4xBB raise from the blinds after a few limpers and then someone calls with a pocket pair, great odds and position, and stacks them.
Raising big with a big pair in ep or from the blinds is asking for trouble imo.

I recently got pokertracker and found that (big surprise...)AA and KK are by far my most profitable hands - 9.5 times out of 10 I limp/limpreraise them.

It all depends on your style but if you're tight aggressive I think limping is by far the best option, (unless your in LP, and even still for me it's usually the best option - if you've been doing very little raising, it's obvious what you've got if you raise now) and one that few tight aggressive players have realised.

This applys to cash games, I don't play stt's or mtt's, so I can't give an opinion on that situation.

Samba

I really like the new limp call raise tactic

I think limping can be a good variant of your game play, course, you have to have it set in stone in your head before you limp.... "I will consider folding"

Final table or down to short handed for example is a great time to limp, in cash, switch between limping and raising.

RoundTower

Fastmachine I am surprised you have such good results limping AA/KK so often. I know your opponents at 5/10 are less likely to get stacked with bad one pair hands, but that should make it more important that you get more money in preflop, not less so.

If there are really "more players these days" limping with good hands, in tournaments around the country, it is probably because there are more crap players playing poker now than ever before.

dunkamania

By limping you are risking giving up your stack when your opponent outflops you,especially since you have no info on his possible range of hands.

Ollieboy

RoundTower wrote:

Fastmachine I am surprised you have such good results limping AA/KK so often. I know your opponents at 5/10 are less likely to get stacked with bad one pair hands, but that should make it more important that you get more money in preflop, not less so.

If there are really "more players these days" limping with good hands, in tournaments around the country, it is probably because there are more crap players playing poker now than ever before.

Would agree with this, you allow people to see a flop cheap instead of getting money into the pot preflop, I've never read or heard anyone promote limping into pots with big hands. But mixing your play up is important, but limping should be your first style of play with premium hands. Than again, if we all played the same it would be boring.

Atlas_IRL

maybe with AA, depending on the situation... but do u wanna limp with kk/qq with callers and the boards has an A...

FastMachine

dunkamania wrote:

By limping you are risking giving up your stack when your opponent outflops
you,especially since you have no info on his possible range of hands.

It's very hard to go broke with AA in an unraised pot. Unraised pot's are so much easier to read than raised that it's usually fairly obvious when you're behind. Just play it like, or slightly more aggressive than, tptk, don't treat it like a set.

RoundTower wrote:

Fastmachine I am surprised you have such good results limping AA/KK so often. I know your opponents at 5/10 are less likely to get stacked with bad one pair hands, but that should make it more important that you get more money in preflop, not less so.

Limpreraising AA oop is a great move, you'd be surprised how often this pays off. And I mean a big limp reraise as in not giving any odds for a set, you can't loose with this long term then if he does catch a set. I've seen good players reraise all in here with KK/QQ/AK or else they call and get stacked on an under flop. If the player is poor, they could call with an even wider range. I'm a bit more cautious limpreraising with KK.

Anyway, if no-one raises, you're in with an oop overpair and can make an easy fold if needs be. In position, sometimes I'll just call a raise with AA and see what can be done on the flop and turn, this is where I think I can stack someone with TPTK/overpair - it's their raised pot and they're oop.

Ollieboy wrote:

Would agree with this, you allow people to see a flop cheap instead of getting money into the pot preflop, I've never read or heard anyone promote limping into pots with big hands.

I'm not in it to stack somebody if the pot ends up unraised. I'd ideally like them to call an oversized limp reraise. I think if you're playing regularly against opponents of a certain standard AA/KK can easily become the payoff hand as they won't go broke with TPTK but you probably will if they have a set.

I just see raising with AA and KK as saying to the decent/good players - "I've got a premium hand here, why don't you have a crack at a set and take my stack". I know if I raised more frequently this wouldn't be the case, but that's not my style. If you do raise frequently, then you should of course, be raising with AA/KK - I'm not saying you should be raising hands like AQ or 99 and limping with AA/KK, I'm just saying what works for me.

Hectorjelly

Im surprised you have so much success with it Fastmachine, Do you limp reraise other hands? If not you have a hugely expolitable element to your game, but that said if people arent picking up on it it makes no difference. I have limped AA about 3 times in the last 6 months, Ive only done it at crazy tables. AA is by far my most profitable hand.

Flipper

hey len,

Personally i think that it's ok to limp in the early stage of a tournament to create action but you have be willing to lay them down to a co-ordinated board. In the later stages with bigger blinds and running antes, i would raise and re-raise from any position. The whole idea is to isolate someone and make them 4/1 dog!

FastMachine

Hectorjelly wrote:

Im surprised you have so much success with it Fastmachine, Do you limp reraise other hands? If not you have a hugely expolitable element to your game, but that said if people arent picking up on it it makes no difference. I have limped AA about 3 times in the last 6 months, Ive only done it at crazy tables. AA is by far my most profitable hand.

I don't usually limp reraise other hands, unless I'm making a move and looking to take it down on the flop. In position though I could reraise with alot of hands. In the blinds I'll reraise the button or the sb with a wide range of hands too.

It's a trade-off. Going in unraised with AA I miss out on winning even bigger pots against certain hands but I virtually eliminate the possibility of getting stacked by a set or two pair.

There's different ways to play it right. I've made (slightly) more with AA than I have with KK, QQ, AKs and AKo all put together.

delanec8

I raise a lot of pots generally so i almost always raise AA. The only time i won't will be in early position if i can expect a raise behind me and i can reraise when it gets back to me.

Fatboydim

delanec8 wrote:

I raise a lot of pots generally so i almost always raise AA. The only time i won't will be in early position if i can expect a raise behind me and i can reraise when it gets back to me.

That's exactly what I did in the Open on a very aggresive table... and guess what they all folded to the blinds so we saw a flop and BB hit two pair.

It certainly does seem to be happening more and more. Played on stars tonight and twice got caught by higher aces limping. Position didn't seem to matter... and neither did a co-ordinated board. Strange.

Well they say with aces you either win a little or lose a lot. Guess I'd rather win a little.

Hectorjelly

Fatboydim wrote:

Well they say with aces you either win a little or lose a lot. Guess I'd rather win a little.

What "they" say is rubbish. AA is the most profitable hand and you will often win massive pots with it

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

What "they" say is rubbish.

This is true in poker more or less every time.