Too late for social intergration?

ntlbell

After a discussion recently with a friend on the subject sparked of by something we were watching on the city channel (Why I was watching the city channel I have no idea) Basically a prog about the "gay scene" clubs,pubs etc etc.

I was slightly annoyed by this production.

I feel that having such prog's and "gay" clubs/pubs like the george are only slowing down the intergration.

I remember many years ago walking up to the door of the pod to be turned away as it was "gay night" I was absoloutley disgusted, how I could be refused entry from a public place based on the fact that I'm straight.

I can only imagine the uproar if the same was said to a homsexual.

"sorry nancy boy, straights only"

How do people feel on the current state of intergration and what do you think will help with it in the future?

Boston

Your logic is flawed. LGBT people are irish, and are a part of irish culture and society. Theres no need for "integration", theres a need for people to accept that gays exist. Programmes like the one you decribe highlight awareness of homosexuals and gay pubs/clubs serve as a social outlet. There not exactly exclusively gay either, despite your experience.

Annasopra

ntlbell wrote:

After a discussion recently with a friend on the subject sparked of by something we were watching on the city channel (Why I was watching the city channel I have no idea) Basically a prog about the "gay scene" clubs,pubs etc etc.

I was slightly annoyed by this production.

I feel that having such prog's and "gay" clubs/pubs like the george are only slowing down the intergration.

I remember many years ago walking up to the door of the pod to be turned away as it was "gay night" I was absoloutley disgusted, how I could be refused entry from a public place based on the fact that I'm straight.

I can only imagine the uproar if the same was said to a homsexual.

"sorry nancy boy, straights only"

How do people feel on the current state of intergration and what do you think will help with it in the future?

I can see to an extent where you are coming from in that some people think having gay pubs is ghettoisation BUT a lot of straight people drink in these pubs and and they are places for gay people to meet each other

damien

There will always be gay bars but I think over time there will be less of a need for gay people to have gay bars in order to have a social outlet. Right now many gay people still are closted and worry about being themselves in the world outside the gay community, some have very valid reasons to act this way.

Once the reasons for this logic become obsolete then I think there'll be less of a need to use gay bars as a crutch. That'll happen once gay people don't feel the need to explain their sexualty to the rest of society just like heterosexuals. Unfortunately right now they do. So not quite there yet.

Hunter S

There will always been gaybars as gays will still need to score of an evening!!

Stark

As far being turned away because you were straight, I don't believe anywhere does that these days.

shay_562

As far being turned away because you were straight, I don't believe anywhere does that these days.

Sure it does. I've never been openly told that I'm not being let in because (they think) I'm straight, but (when trying to enter the George with a female friend) I've been asked "Do you know what type of place this is?", looked up and down and told I can't go in, so given that we were well-dressed, stone cold sober and of legal age, I'm about 90% certain as to the reason.

Annasopra

damien.m wrote:

There will always be gay bars but I think over time there will be less of a need for gay people to have gay bars in order to have a social outlet. Right now many gay people still are closted and worry about being themselves in the world outside the gay community, some have very valid reasons to act this way.

Once the reasons for this logic become obsolete then I think there'll be less of a need to use gay bars as a crutch. That'll happen once gay people don't feel the need to explain their sexualty to the rest of society just like heterosexuals. Unfortunately right now they do. So not quite there yet.

I think gay bars will be around for a long time yet - there are scene queens who would never be seen anywhere else but also if there are no gay bars then people will find it hard to work out who is gay and who isn't

ntlbell

Johnnymcg wrote:

I think gay bars will be around for a long time yet - there are scene queens who would never be seen anywhere else but also if there are no gay bars then people will find it hard to work out who is gay and who isn't

If i'm in a pub, I don't know what women are single/married/straight/bi/etc etc

This is where the art of conversation comes in.

damien

Johnnymcg wrote:

also if there are no gay bars then people will find it hard to work out who is gay and who isn't

Yeah, just like the "real" world most of us live in. Continuing the fallacy that you can only find a gay in a gay bar (or a hairdressers) means you are in effect self-ghettoising the gay community.

Gays would be best honing their real world social skills but I guess it's the least path of resistance or easiest path to take if one is lazy/insecure about participating in the wider community.

Annasopra

damien.m wrote:

Yeah, just like the "real" world most of us live in. Continuing the fallacy that you can only find a gay in a gay bar (or a hairdressers) means you are in effect self-ghettoising the gay community.

Gays would be best honing their real world social skills but I guess it's the least path of resistance or easiest path to take if one is lazy/insecure about participating in the wider community.

Don't try and misquote me - I never said you will only find gay people in gay bars, There are obviously lots of people who are totally non-scene and enjoy different types of social pursuits and or social circles

Gays would be best honing their real world social skills but I guess it's the least path of resistance or easiest path to take if one is lazy/insecure about participating in the wider community.

Maybe some people feel more comfortable in spaces which are largely gay, a bit like some women might feel more comfortable on a women only website

damien

Johnnymcg wrote:

Don't try and misquote me

Or what exactly? There's more than one way to interpret what I said. Same way I could interpret that sentence as two commands.

the_syco

damien.m wrote:

There will always be gay bars but I think over time there will be less of a need for gay people to have gay bars in order to have a social outlet. Right now many gay people still are closted and worry about being themselves in the world outside the gay community, some have very valid reasons to act this way.

Once the reasons for this logic become obsolete then I think there'll be less of a need to use gay bars as a crutch. That'll happen once gay people don't feel the need to explain their sexualty to the rest of society just like heterosexuals. Unfortunately right now they do. So not quite there yet.

Replace "gay" with "metal" in the above sentence. The way I see it, is that metallers goto a metal bar, as they enjoy themselves in a metal bar better than a "normal" bar. Likewise with some gay people: they like knowing that everyone is on the same level as them, without asking.

ntlbell

the_syco wrote:

Replace "gay" with "metal" in the above sentence. The way I see it, is that metallers goto a metal bar, as they enjoy themselves in a metal bar better than a "normal" bar. Likewise with some gay people: they like knowing that everyone is on the same level as them, without asking.

Sexuality and what type of music you like are slightly different.

I don't go to my local because the guys there like to sleep with women, I don't care who they sleep with, I'm going out for a pint and to have a bit of craic, who I sleep with it and what I do in the bedroom should have no baring on where I socialise.

This is a rediclous comparison, what next? the pink bank? so the gay community can bank with gay bankers?

Stark

ntlbell wrote:

Sexuality and what type of music you like are slightly different.

I don't go to my local because the guys there like to sleep with women, I don't care who they sleep with, I'm going out for a pint and to have a bit of craic, who I sleep with it and what I do in the bedroom should have no baring on where I socialise.

Many people go out to "pull" on a night out. Believe me, most of the holes they call nightclubs wouldn't exist if this wasn't the case. People who don't go out to "pull" tend to go more for late bars. There's no point in a gay person going to a nightclub where the most of the male clientele is after the female of the species, and would probably react with a glass bottle if they saw anyone doing differently.

ntlbell wrote:

This is a rediclous comparison, what next? the pink bank? so the gay community can bank with gay bankers?

If the gay bankers look anything like the gay bankers I've seen in London then thumbs up from me

Boston

damien.m wrote:

Gays would be best honing their real world social skills but I guess it's the least path of resistance or easiest path to take if one is lazy/insecure about participating in the wider community.

Everyone needs to start somewhere, I don't think it's necessarily being insecure.

shay_562

If i'm in a pub, I don't know what women are single/married/straight/bi/etc etc

This is where the art of conversation comes in.

Splendid then. I'll just head to Q-Bar next Friday night, start chatting up random guys and see how long it takes for someone to attempt to kick the living **** out of me. I'm all for the idea of integration and whatnot, but suggesting that trying to pick up a guy in most clubs around Dublin is in any way a good idea seems kinda ridiculous to me.

That said, in some ways, I agree with the OP. It annoys me when people I know won't go anywhere but Dragon/the George on a night out, because a) going to the same place every week gets very old very fast, and b) not every night is about going on the pull. I also think he has a point about integration - the ideal would be that seeing gay people in 'straight' clubs would be a completely unremarkable event, and the only way to achieve this, to normalize homosexuality (yeah, yeah, I know, "It's completely normal", but there are still ****wits out there who wouldn't see that), is to expose people to it. Hiding ourselves away, even by choice, doesn't help anyone. But equally, a night out shouldn't have to be about social reform - gay bars have their uses, and having a scene is useful for helping people come to terms with themselves and come out. But on the other hand (the third hand?), you could say that the ghettoization (a real word? I neither know nor care) of gay people is a contributing factor to making people feel so uncomfortable about themselves in a non-scene setting; that making it seem like the only place it's acceptable to be gay is in two or three select pubs is part of what makes people think (somewhat accurately) that they won't be widely accepted. I dunno. It's late, and this has descended into incoherent ramblings. Upshot is, both sides are kinda right and kinda wrong.

Boston

shay_562 wrote:

Splendid then. I'll just head to Q-Bar next Friday night, start chatting up random guys and see how long it takes for someone to attempt to kick the living **** out of me. I'm all for the idea of integration and whatnot, but suggesting that trying to pick up a guy in most clubs around Dublin is in any way a good idea seems kinda ridiculous to me.

That said, in some ways, I agree with the OP. It annoys me when people I know won't go anywhere but Dragon/the George on a night out, because a) going to the same place every week gets very old very fast, and b) not every night is about going on the pull. I also think he has a point about integration - the ideal would be that seeing gay people in 'straight' clubs would be a completely unremarkable event, and the only way to achieve this, to normalize homosexuality (yeah, yeah, I know, "It's completely normal", but there are still ****wits out there who wouldn't see that), is to expose people to it. Hiding ourselves away, even by choice, doesn't help anyone. But equally, a night out shouldn't have to be about social reform - gay bars have their uses, and having a scene is useful for helping people come to terms with themselves and come out. But on the other hand (the third hand?), you could say that the ghettoization (a real word? I neither know nor care) of gay people is a contributing factor to making people feel so uncomfortable about themselves in a non-scene setting; that making it seem like the only place it's acceptable to be gay is in two or three select pubs is part of what makes people think (somewhat accurately) that they won't be widely accepted. I dunno. It's late, and this has descended into incoherent ramblings. Upshot is, both sides are kinda right and kinda wrong.

I don't know, I remember being accused of just looking for a fight with hetros when I tired to organise drinks in a straight bar. some people will never accept it. Personally I don't drink in Gay bars, just because their too expensive and largely crap. The tought of spending every saturday nigh in the george fills me with terror.

ntlbell

shay_562 wrote:

Splendid then. I'll just head to Q-Bar next Friday night, start chatting up random guys and see how long it takes for someone to attempt to kick the living **** out of me. I'm all for the idea of integration and whatnot, but suggesting that trying to pick up a guy in most clubs around Dublin is in any way a good idea seems kinda ridiculous to me.

This is the whole point, you probably won't find any gay men there because they're all hiding on george's st!!!

It is ridiculous right _now_ because of the lack of intergration!

the_syco

shay_562 wrote:

the ideal would be that seeing gay people in 'straight' clubs would be a completely unremarkable event, and the only way to achieve this, to normalize homosexuality (yeah, yeah, I know, "It's completely normal", but there are still ****wits out there who wouldn't see that), is to expose people to it.

Unless they're overly camp, you won't know they're gay. Non-camp gay guys in a straight bar will be looked at by the women, and the non-camp gay guys will be loking @ the guys.

Just wondering: if a (drunk) women tried to hump the leg of a gay guy(gay, not bi), to the point where you can't get her to go away, what you do? OT, but I'm just wondering.

ntlbell

the_syco wrote:

Unless they're overly camp, you won't know they're gay. Non-camp gay guys in a straight bar will be looked at by the women, and the non-camp gay guys will be loking @ the guys.

Just wondering: if a (drunk) women tried to hump the leg of a gay guy(gay, not bi), to the point where you can't get her to go away, what you do? OT, but I'm just wondering.

What do you do if a woman in a bar is "humping the leg of you" and you can't get her to go away?

This is not a problem exclusive to people who are gay.

As for known if someone is gay or not, as I said before converse?

Or get a gaydar upgrade.

the_syco

ntlbell wrote:

As for known if someone is gay or not, as I said before converse?

As said before, in a perfect world, maybe, but in this world, you'll get called a ****, and get the sh|t kicked out of you, when you pick the wrong guy.

Also, if you pick a guy who is part of a larger group, he'll feel that unless he kicks the sh|t out of you, he'll be labeled as "gay". Immature, maybe, but you'll still get the sh|t kicked out of you.

So, again, how do you find out which guy is gay, without getting the sh|t kicked out of you, in a straight club? In a gay club, you won't have to worry, as most of them will be gay, and if you ask the only straight guy in a gay club, nothing will be said, as its a gay club.

ntlbell

the_syco wrote:

As said before, in a perfect world, maybe, but in this world, you'll get called a ****, and get the sh|t kicked out of you, when you pick the wrong guy.

Also, if you pick a guy who is part of a larger group, he'll feel that unless he kicks the sh|t out of you, he'll be labeled as "gay". Immature, maybe, but you'll still get the sh|t kicked out of you.

So, again, how do you find out which guy is gay, without getting the sh|t kicked out of you, in a straight club? In a gay club, you won't have to worry, as most of them will be gay, and if you ask the only straight guy in a gay club, nothing will be said, as its a gay club.

Get called a **** for talking to a guy? I talk to guys in pubs/clubs all the time and I'm not gay?

Conversing is not "get your coat big boy"

Be creative...

damien

the_syco wrote:

As said before, in a perfect world, maybe, but in this world, you'll get called a ****, and get the sh|t kicked out of you, when you pick the wrong guy.

Maybe gay men need to learn the subtle art of flirting and charming someone and learning that you can figure out someones sexuality without needing a gay bar surrounding and the guy to be a total queen. Introducing yourself to someone with your tongue is not de riguer in most social situations. Stop being lazy and using campness and some hole of a gaybar to do most of the work for you.

Boston

What exactly are you people talking about when you say integration? That we should all drink in the same pubs? I wouldn't drink in Qbar because it's a hole. It's also a cattle market.

As said before, in a perfect world, maybe, but in this world, you'll get called a ****, and get the sh|t kicked out of you, when you pick the wrong guy.

How do you know a woman is interested? How do you know a guy is interested? How do you avoid getting a slap in the face off a woman?

moridin

LiouVille wrote:

What exactly are you people talking about when you say integration? That we should all drink in the same pubs? I wouldn't drink in Qbar because it's a hole. It's also a cattle market.

Hear hear. It's one of those bars where most of the guys there are out to score a girl, and most of the girls are there with their girlfriends looking to pick up a guy. </wild speculation> Just like most straight nightclubs. </wild speculation again>

How do you know a woman is interested? How do you know a guy is interested? How do you avoid getting a slap in the face off a woman?

In fairness, sometimes the campest or most gay seeming of guys can turn out to be straight. Or delusional. Or repressed. Any one of these could cause problems if you were talking to them and you got on well and then you tried to even hint at taking it further.

In an ideal world, yes, gay people and straight people could do their picking up in the same place. But with the prejudices and insecurities of the general populace coming into play it makes it much dodgier to attempt to do it.

shay_562

Just wondering: if a (drunk) women tried to hump the leg of a gay guy(gay, not bi), to the point where you can't get her to go away, what you do? OT, but I'm just wondering.

Either tell them I'm gay or latch onto whichever of my female friends I see first and pretend we're going out (depending on which I think is more likely to work in any given case) - although, for both of those, some girls just see it as being a challenge.

Maybe gay men need to learn the subtle art of flirting and charming someone and learning that you can figure out someones sexuality without needing a gay bar surrounding and the guy to be a total queen. Introducing yourself to someone with your tongue is not de riguer in most social situations. Stop being lazy and using campness and some hole of a gaybar to do most of the work for you.

Thank you, Damien, for reminding us once again that (naturally) it's all our own faults. Believe it or not, some of us are actually capable of human interaction, and even of slightly more subtle than "You there, get your coat" flirting. But the thing is that no matter how subtle you are about trying to find out someone's sexuality (since it isn't generally something people throw into the first moments of conversation) or about trying to express a casual interest in the, it's still going to involve some level of flirting. And while women generally won't take it as a personal insult if you flirt with them when they're not interested, straight guys will see it (in most, not all, cases) as an attack on their masculinity.

damien

shay_562 wrote:

But the thing is that no matter how subtle you are about trying to find out someone's sexuality (since it isn't generally something people throw into the first moments of conversation) or about trying to express a casual interest in them, it's still going to involve some level of flirting. ... straight guys will see it (in most, not all, cases) as an attack on their masculinity.

Wow, so that's why you all need gay bars? I understand now. What a terrible cross to carry through life.

Annasopra

damien.m wrote:

Wow, so that's why you all need gay bars? I understand now. What a terrible cross to carry through life.

You sound very sympathetic in your understanding that "we all need gay bars" -

damien

To answer the first reply which seems to have disappeared:

Johnnymcg wrote:

Right and you never go to gay bars at all, do you?

Not really no. Generally if friends are about and want to go, I'll go along. I may have been in a gay bar once or maybe twice this year. I certainly don't use them because I'd be afraid of threatening some guys masculinity in a straight bar.

Johnnymcg wrote:

You sound very sympathetic in your understanding that "we all need gay bars" -

Hey, no problem, some people need their crutches I guess.

carbonkid

Im on damiens side as i find myself avoiding gay pubs but it doesnt mean you have to go to the likes of Qbar lol. I find myself usually going to the likes of anseo or karma, backlash is good on a thursday in wax.

At the same time i do understand we do need gay pubs for those who go out to pull by the end of the night or feel like they cant be themselfs around straight guys.

Boston

Damien, unless you've never gone to a Gay bar and scored someone, you can't hold the moral high ground, and even if you haven't who really cares if you think it's a crutch, maybe it is, is that such a problem.

Btw, I've been in fewer gay bars fewer times then you this year, but that makes me internally homophobic.

damien

LiouVille wrote:

Damien, unless you've never gone to a Gay bar and scored someone, you can't hold the moral high ground,

Says the judging committee.

Annasopra

Some people like gay bars, some people don't - why is that such a problem

ntlbell

Johnnymcg wrote:

Some people like gay bars, some people don't - why is that such a problem

That's a very creative and well thought out response, thanks for your input.

Boston

damien.m wrote:

Says the judging committee.

Well yea damien, just because you might be at a point in your life where you no longer go to gay bars, doesn't mean the whole gay community should be. Gay bars had their purpose when you used to go regularly to them.

damien

LiouVille wrote:

Gay bars had their purpose when you used to go regularly to them.

I never did. Careful with the presumptions there. Next you'll call all women who are on Saphhic ... oh wait nevermind.

moridin

damien.m wrote:

I never did. Careful with the presumptions there. Next you'll call all women who are on Saphhic ... oh wait nevermind.

Perhaps if you repeat the same thing enough times history will re-write itself. Clicking your heels together 3 times may also help :rolleyes:

Boston

damien.m wrote:

I never did. Careful with the presumptions there. Next you'll call all women who are on Saphhic ... oh wait nevermind.

damien, I've come to the conclusion you've completely lost the plot. I really hope you get what ever is up with you shorted out, because your bull**** is becoming very transparent.

shay_562

Wow, so that's why you all need gay bars? I understand now.

First off, love the "you all". Because the only thing more fun than when random people on the internet assume they know me and make sweeping generalisations is when those people attempt in the same sentence to artificially elevate themselves to some kind of moral high ground where it's fine and dandy for them to judge everyone else too. Slow clap, Damien. Slow clap.

I certainly don't use [gay bars] because I'd be afraid of threatening some guys masculinity in a straight bar....some people need their crutches I guess.

And again with the condescending snottiness. People who know you much better seem to be doing just fine in disparaging your implication that you (sainted virgin that you are) have never gone on the pull in a gay bar, so I'll simply point out that yes, people (as a general rule, gay or straight) use crutches at times, especially when it comes to sex. Nightclubs and alcohol in general are crutches to help people pull - I don't think that my contention that trying the same thing in a straight bar (or at least the vast majority of them) can have consequences is all that far out there. Your attitude (and I'm sure you'll feel free to correct me) seems to be "**** them, if I want to hit on them, I will". Which is fine for you, but if you're honestly trying to suggest that there aren't straight guys who are going to take that very, very badly then you're off your head. I have no problem being myself around straight people, and in turn, few of them have a problem with me. If I were to start making moves on random guys, that would change, and while not agreeing with that, I can kinda see why.