Renault Espace vs Landrover Discovery crash

BrianD3

pburns has already started a thread on this but it appears to be dead. A bit like the occupants of the Landrover might have been had it been a real crash.

The test was carried out by 5th gear, 40 mph offset test between a current model Espace and a previous model Discovery. Very big crash but the Espace occupants would have walked away whereas the Discovery occupants would have been in bad shape. It must be said that the Discovery used can trace its design back to around 1989. The new stronger, heavier model would likely have done a lot better and done a lot more damage to the Espace. And I wouldn't like to be in 1989 Espace if it was hit by a new or old Landrover as the old Espace was very light and had a plastic body

Copy and paste the below text for the article
http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?lnk=601&featureid=301&description=Smashing, great, super!

I hope this is a wakeup call to those who have an "invincibility complex" because they drive a big jeep.

I personally would have predicted that both the Esapce and Discovery would have fared very badly in this crash, I am surprised that the Espace did so well (even allowing for its modern technology and design) given the aggressiveness of the vehicle that it collided with.

Also, looks like Renaults aren't the "deathtraps in a crash" that some here (you know who you are ) make them out to be

MrPudding

BrianD3 wrote:

pburns has already started a thread on this but it appears to be dead. A bit like the occupants of the Landrover might have been had it been a real crash.

The test was carried out by 5th gear, 40 mph offset test between a current model Espace and a previous model Discovery. Very big crash but the Espace occupants would have walked away whereas the Discovery occupants would have been in bad shape. It must be said that the Discovery used can trace its design back to around 1989. The new stronger, heavier model would likely have done a lot better and done a lot more damage to the Espace. And I wouldn't like to be in 1989 Espace if it was hit by a new or old Landrover as the old Espace was very light and had a plastic body

Copy and paste the below text for the article
http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?lnk=601&featureid=301&description=Smashing, great, super!

I hope this is a wakeup call to those who have an "invincibility complex" because they drive a big jeep.

I personally would have predicted that both the Esapce and Discovery would have fared very badly in this crash, I am surprised that the Espace did so well (even allowing for its modern technology and design) given the aggressiveness of the vehicle that it collided with.

Also, looks like Renaults aren't the "deathtraps in a crash" that some here (you know who you are ) make them out to be

It was an impressive test. The new breed of renalts cannot not be called deathtraps. I don't know about the older models but all the new ones, going back a few years for most of them score 5 in Euroncap. That Espace they crashed in 5th Gear got the highest score ever recorded.

I expected the Espace to do well but I was still surprised at how well. Do you remember last year they crashed an old Espace into a new one? The old one got destroyed but the airbags on the new one did not even deploy as the computer decided the crash was not serious enough to warrant it.

Serious money for one here though. The one they crashed on the show was worth £10k. I think it was a 2003 model.

MrP

Rovi

BrianD3 wrote:

It must be said that the Discovery used can trace its design back to around 1989.

Take the bodywork off, and you can trace it back to 1947 :rolleyes:

junkyard

Your not in charge of public relations for Renault by any chance BrianD3?
Do you even drive one?

BrianD3

Surely the Discovery was an all new chassis and body when it was introduced circa 89? Hard to imagine that it shared much with the old Defender but I stand corrected if it did.

The Discovery was never tested by EuroNCAP but had a fair performance in the Australian NCAP tests in 1998. The impact speed for these was approx 3 mph slower than EuroNCAP at the time (speed was standardised later on)
http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/vehicles/ancap/4wd-1998/landrover-discovery1-1993.html

As for me working for Renault, no, but perhaps they should pay me for sticking up for them on this board. I'd say I've driven ~300k miles in Renaults (incl 110k in one of the "junk" Laguna IIs) and shock horror they haven't once let me down or fallen apart around me. I'm obviously the luckiest bastard on the planet. I can't figure out how I haven't won the Euro Millions yet

Anyhow - back on topic.

ToxicPaddy

In Topgear they did a test recently. well around 2004/2005 and the new Espace showed up very well on
the NCAP ratings, however the Freelander crumbled in the same test. 40mph into a concrete bollard/pole. :eek:

Tox

Anan1

junkyard wrote:

Your not in charge of public relations for Renault by any chance BrianD3?
Do you even drive one?

Who cares, he got you fair & square.;)

BrianD3

ToxicPaddy wrote:

In Topgear they did a test recently. well around 2004/2005 and the new Espace showed up very well on
the NCAP ratings, however the Freelander crumbled in the same test. 40mph into a concrete bollard/pole. :eek:

Tox

Thing about the NCAP is that its a more artificial looking test environment than a car vs car test. The NCAP test is probably as realistic as it's possible to be for an objective, reproducible test. However seeing two cars smash into each other head on at a closing speed of 80 mph is likely to have a much bigger impact on any Joe Publics or SUV-driving Yummy Mummies who see it.

5th gear have done some excellent and interesting crashes - the old vs new Espace as mentioned by MrPudding and the scary 120 mph closing speed crash between the Volvo and BMW.

One other thing, I notice the Espace used in this test was right hand drive with the drivers side taking the impact. It has been said before that Renault design their vehicles just to do well in the EuroNCAP test which always uses LHD Renaults with the driver's side taking the brunt. The accusation is that the passenger side of the car is neglected in the design stage which means that Renaults which are produced in RHD are far less safe for the driver. I think this latest test blows that particular daft theory out of the water.

MrPudding

BrianD3 wrote:

One other thing, I notice the Espace used in this test was right hand drive with the drivers side taking the impact. It has been said before that Renault design their vehicles just to do well in the EuroNCAP test which always uses LHD Renaults with the driver's side taking the brunt. The accusation is that the passenger side of the car is neglected in the design stage which means that Renaults which are produced in RHD are far less safe for the driver. I think this latest test blows that particular daft theory out of the water.

As was pointed out last night there is a cross member on each side of the car. Both of which are connected to chassis componants which are designed to first crumple reducing the energy and then direct the remaining energy through the chassis and d pillars. It seems very successful. It seems that this particular part of the design is largely responsible for it's success in the test. Given that it is the same on both sides I think the "daft theory" is most certainly blown out of the water.

I am sure there are other safety features on the drivers side ut these would, I presume, be due to the fact that there are more mechanical "bits" on the drivers side that need taken care of in the event of a crash.

Regardless of whether or not renault design there cars simply to pass NCAP or not would you rather have your kids, in hte event of a crash, in a renault that scored 5 or something else that scored 3 or 4 or even less? I would choose the renault every time.

MrP

bkehoe

The Discovery 1 was based on the chassis of the original Range Rover of the time moreso than any previous Defender. The Discovery 2 (1998 on) and the facelift D2 was a totally redesigned body but a similar overall design. The Discovery 3 (2004 on) is the first total new design from the ground up for the Discovery. I'd expect it to be similar to the 2002+ Range Rover in NCAP/other tests - I think the RR got 5 stars.

As regards to the test, UK£10K would easily have bought a Discovery 2, which would have been a fairer test than using a D1 imho.

BrianD3 wrote:

Surely the Discovery was an all new chassis and body when it was introduced circa 89? Hard to imagine that it shared much with the old Defender but I stand corrected if it did.

The Discovery was never tested by EuroNCAP but had a fair performance in the Australian NCAP tests in 1998. The impact speed for these was approx 3 mph slower than EuroNCAP at the time (speed was standardised later on)
http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/vehicles/ancap/4wd-1998/landrover-discovery1-1993.html

As for me working for Renault, no, but perhaps they should pay me for sticking up for them on this board. I'd say I've driven ~300k miles in Renaults (incl 110k in one of the "junk" Laguna IIs) and shock horror they haven't once let me down or fallen apart around me. I'm obviously the luckiest bastard on the planet. I can't figure out how I haven't won the Euro Millions yet

Anyhow - back on topic.

ds20prefecture

Highest NCAP to date is that other flimsy french POS, the Citroën C6. I believe the Range rover scored an overall 4 for passenger safety, and a dismal (yet predictable) 0 for pedestrian safety.

BrianD3

I didn't realise that there were structural improvements between the Discovery 1 and 2. I thought it was just a facelift. It's more than that but still I don't think it could be regarded as a "new model".

Of course the current Discovery 3 is a new model and could be expected to do far better in any crash test. This model is dearer and close to a tonne heavier than the current Espace :eek: AFAIK the older Discoverys are about 300 kg heavier than the current Espace

Going back to the D1 and D2 - according to the American IIHS website there were safety improvements with the D2 alright. They crash tested both the D1 and D2

Discovery 1 offset test (this is the model that was crashed into the Espace)
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=55

Discovery 2 offset test
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=122

From the pics the passenger compartment of the D2 is in better shape than the older model, however it still isn't great and there is major footwell intrusion. The actual injury ratings for the two cars are about the same.

So overall I don't think it was that unfair to use a D1 instead of a D2 in the Espace test.

ToxicPaddy

BrianD3 wrote:

.....and the scary 120 mph closing speed crash between the Volvo and BMW.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

BrianD3

Did you see the 120 mph crash test Toxic? A Volvo 940 doing 60 mph collided head on with a BMW 5 series also doing 60 mph. Collision was like a bomb going off and both cars were horribly mangled. I firmly believe the footage should be shown to every driver as it would shock a lot of people into driving more safely. IMO it's a better piece of film than any of the road safety ads that are shown on TV.