Thats rich!

darkman2

A country of such contradictions, a crap health service, a questionable road network, an incapacitated military, an asylum problem, rampant criminality and corruption at the highest level to name a few but we are the 4th richest country in the world If someone had of said just 8 years ago we would be in such an envious posisition we would have cracked up laughing. Then again we did have a statistic last year saying we were 'the best country in which to live in the world'


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_percap

aidan_walsh

Well, you don't think we got that way by spending money, do you?

gerrycollins

i think the problem with a lot of these surveys is that they dont take into account the things that you mention,they are just based on fact ie. what we "produce" per person but do not include the tax rates or issues that you raise

Cormic

Do you honestly think that other countries are any different? Look at the UK or the US...

darkman2

gerrycollins wrote:

i think the problem with a lot of these surveys is that they dont take into account the things that you mention,they are just based on fact ie. what we "produce" per person but do not include the tax rates or issues that you raise

Actually everything is there. Were one of the lowest taxed countries in the world (some think thats a bad thing) and one of the happiest:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_hap_lev_ver_hap

And were very proud too, of what Im not sure.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_ver_pro_of_the_nat

junkyard

We might be getting wealthier but at a price, literally. Look how much money is borrowed by average people just to get by on. Its looking like a mortgage for a first time buyer is going to be for 35 years and they're are going to need help from their parents according to some of the Sunday papers. Standards are falling everywhere, people will stab each other in the back just to get ahead of them and people are becoming more and more arrogant. Life in Ireland today is like a race and it doesn't seem to matter to anyone who gets hurt along the way. I, for one, am not sure its a great plan tbh, a lot of ruthless people are making a lot of money at the expense of ordinary people.

darkman2

junkyard wrote:

We might be getting wealthier but at a price, literally. Look how much money is borrowed by average people just to get by on. Its looking like a mortgage for a first time buyer is going to be for 35 years and they're are going to need help from their parents according to some of the Sunday papers. Standards are falling everywhere, people will stab each other in the back just to get ahead of them and people are becoming more and more arrogant. Life in Ireland today is like a race and it doesn't seem to matter to anyone who gets hurt along the way. I, for one, am not sure its a great plan tbh, a lot of ruthless people are making a lot of money at the expense of ordinary people.

So why are we so happy with our rat race Maybe were just feckless or else they put it up for a laugh:)

junkyard

Fianna Fail probably paid them to do it.:)

gerrycollins

darkman2 wrote:

Actually everything is there. Were one of the lowest taxed countries in the world (some think thats a bad thing) and one of the happiest:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_hap_lev_ver_hap

And were very proud too, of what Im not sure.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_ver_pro_of_the_nat

i dont see how, we live on borrowed money and disposal income for many is not disposal its borrowed look at the national credit card debt. also GDP if im correct (and i stand corrected) does not incluse VAT of 21 and 13.5% one of the highest in the EU. its just that we earn more than many other countries but we have the expenses to go with it. I agree with you its a crap measuring system and does not reflect real life here

darkman2

gerrycollins wrote:

i dont see how, we live on borrowed money and disposal income for many is not disposal its borrowed look at the national credit card debt. also GDP if im correct (and i stand corrected) does not incluse VAT of 21 and 13.5% one of the highest in the EU. its just that we earn more than many other countries but we have the expenses to go with it. I agree with you its a crap measuring system and does not reflect real life here

But maybe we dont realise how good we do have it at the moment:rolleyes: ? The Irish do like critiscising themselves in fairness.

Dirk Gently

just a quick question, the poll states that we have very high income per person in the country, does it also take into account our out goings. are we really that much better off considering that alot of people are spending more than they're earning, getting into debt with mortgages / bills / credit cards / double taxes and so on. So were earning more than ever but were also forking out more than ever to.
Also, not disputing the poll, but is the figure an average of all earnings in ireland, i.e. a few people earning millions and a lot of people earning less than the stated figure.
Do we really live in a low tax country when you take into account bin charges / property management companies / health insurance and so on. Is it not just a low corporate tax country.

junkyard

It's all smoke and mirrors, people, it's all a big bluff which, unfortunately most people have fallen for and are now trapped in a time bomb that has to blow sooner or later.

gerrycollins

darkman2 wrote:

But maybe we dont realise how good we do have it at the moment:rolleyes: ? The Irish do like critiscising themselves in fairness.

i disagree with the critiscing bit, i think we are never happy, we had a recession a few years back the government of the time came up with PPF and that put the sh1ts up the rest of us. It was keeping up with the jones if the shop worker got it the train driver wanted it,if the train driver got it the nurses wanted it and up and up we went with the increases getting bigger.
I remember many years ago only getting €3.86 an hour in my first "real" job,when i got paid i had enough to last the week.now i earn 6 times that amount and have very few extra expenses(i gave up going out too expensive) and im still broke at the end of the week.
the increases in wages put up the prices of items and the increase in items put up the wage cost cause people could not afford it and the vicious circle begins and still hasnt stopped.
I personally think we are better off than before by a long shot but there is still that extra expense on the purse strings every week pensions savings mortage that increase every year so we put pressure on our employers to increase our wages and round and round we go

darkman2

clown bag wrote:

just a quick question, the poll states that we have very high income per person in the country, does it also take into account our out goings. are we really that much better off considering that alot of people are spending more than they're earning, getting into debt with mortgages / bills / credit cards / double taxes and so on. So were earning more than ever but were also forking out more than ever to.
Also, not disputing the poll, but is the figure an average of all earnings in ireland, i.e. a few people earning millions and a lot of people earning less than the stated figure.
Do we really live in a low tax country when you take into account bin charges / property management companies / health insurance and so on. Is it not just a low corporate tax country.

Yes definatley this is one of the lowest taxed countries on earners in the world. The UKs tax burden is far higher for example and in countries like Denmark its around 50 per cent everytime you get your payslip!

We have plenty of jobs and alot of opportunity now for young ppl that wasnt there a decade ago.
P.S we havnt had a recession in a decade or more. We had a slow down in 2001 but even then growth was way ahead of all EU countries so.....do we want to be poor again and go back to the 'good aul days'....dont think so:rolleyes:

Dirk Gently

I agree we have a low rate of direct tax on our earnings, but think that stealth taxes which are near impossible to avoid result in a high overall tax rate. i.e. the government takes alot more than the low rate of direct income tax off us.

projectmayhem

the sign of prosperity (imo) is the fact that without a qualification etc., you can very easily go out and get one then go on and make something of your life.

ok, we've a nasty health system, questionable government decisions and so on and so forth. but lets be honest, in general most of us are happy. also, compared to other countries (namely the US), our system is far superior

Ford Prefect

To be fair, the govt. are effectively giving us the money and telling us to spend it as we choose. But at the expense of the minorities in society. We could be paying (slightly) more tax and getting better health and education. These are two things which may not immediately affect the majority of young-20/30 somethings in society.

But if you've got a disability (or your immediate family have) it's fight fight fight just to get rights. That's not right.

"but lets be honest, in general most of us are happy."

I'm alright Jack?

That's great. I've got a 5 year old autistic kid. We fought for the diagnosis (since he was 3 1/2 years) and 1 1/2 year later we're still fighting with Dept Of E/Sci to get him the education he's entitled to by our constitution. Now they've fecked him out of "the system" and because he doesn't fit in their scheme of things he's to stay at home and lose out on the education he's been getting for the last 8 months.

I won't go into details. We've written to the minister and she passes the buck to some ci,vil servant effectively giving that CS more power than she has? What's the point of electing politicians when the civil servants say who gets what and why?

We might be splashing around in money but if you know someone on the fringe of society (on a trolley in A&E, in special needs, etc.) ask them what they think of the Celtic tiger and they won't be so happy. Worse still. We had to bring our lad in to kids A&E after (previous experiences) planning to wait till 3/4am so that it wouldn't be busy we rang Cumlin and Tallaght hospitals to see what the waiting times were. Crumlin was 3/4 hours. For a kid. For an autistic kid. We went to Tallaght. The place was black. It would have been 7/8 hours only they saw he was severely dehydrated. They tried to put him in a ward. This was 10pm at night. Other kids were up watching TV. Our fella (autistic) didn't know any of this. No discredit to the nurses. When we brought them around to his way of thinking they even moved another kid out of a private room to make room for him. They are the underspoken, (in our experience) invariably foreign angels, of the paediatric nursing world that made an already difficult life that little bit easier for our lad.

But if you're happy to see the A&E crisis persist and the minority elements of society fall by the wayside as long as "in general most of us are happy", I hope you're happy. Because if that's all that matters, you're in the best country. And I hope you've got a good pension lined up because all the tax euros you're paying now, you probably won't see again in any fruitful way
because the best you'll get out of it is a bus pass.

I would not bring my kids up in this country and I'm on my way out of it. I don't have the heart to bring my kids up here only for them to PAYE it when they come of age. They deserve more than the current Irish govt. (and any of the alternatives) has/have to offer and I don't want them contributing to it in its current state.

psicic

Yeah, I had typed out a long, long speech regarding the current state of the country - but it was really inappropriate and too specific. As a Civil Servant I have personal experience of the workings of several government departments, and in some pretty unique(but low-grade) capacities to give me an overview of how money is spent and planned to be spent in the near future, and I can only sympathise with Ford Prefect. It would almost make you cry sometimes.

The study referred to in this thread is as about as meaningful as Microsoft doing a study and finding "Wow! XP is the second bestest operating system - only Vista is better!" It's effectively meaningless to the ordinary person. A coke, chips and a Kebab are still going to run you €10 in Dublin City Centre...and the till you're standing at is still going to crash because it's running XP linked to some central sever in England across the Intranet for no particular reason other then the Microsoft rep recommended it. :eek:

I want to be able to say the solution to the current major problem in this country is to sacrifice our standing in such inconsequential tallies 'increase taxes, centralise control, get rid of all these external influences in Departments and unseat some of the craven and corrupt politicans and policymakers', but the fact is, too much power rests in the hands of politicans and others who got to where they are because they know how to play the system as it currently is.

Therefore, they're not going to change the system that empowered them. It also means the Civil Service is so castrated that 'the incorruptable has become corrupted' - i.e. it'll never be able to provide a proper service for the vunerable until there's more votes in it then tax-cuts.

The State isn't a business. The State is about looking after people. It isn't about turning a quick profit or always choosing the cheaper option. Should we avoid overspends, make sure the State doesn't accumulate too much debt or start encroaching on areas where private business make their money? Yes. Yes most definitely, but not to the detriment of the people. The State should provide for the lowest common denominator. The State should spend enough so not only the wealthy can afford the basic human right of decent health care and education. The State should invest in the Military and Police so they aren't a public embarrassment. The State should force politicans to deal with issues now rather then later. The State should be something we're not just vaguely proud of, but something that so tangibly sound, so all encompassingly beneficial that when we find ourselves in a bind, no matter what it is, we should get that moment of relief when we realise that something is already set up or in place or will be put in place by the State to help us cope. This means the State should increase taxes - or persue other methods of finance - to help keep the books balanced.

But to do that, we need a set of nation-builders and all we have now - and have had for a long time - are a set of merchants with their hands in the greasy till, adding cent to the public purse and euro to their own.

I love Ireland, but damn this country and damn anyone who says 'It's not that bad.' :mad:

jrey1981

Cormic wrote:

Do you honestly think that other countries are any different? Look at the UK or the US...

Other EU countries are higher taxed, but at least they have health and transport systems that work.

Ireland has become like Britain in the 1980s, which is kind of ironic when you think about it.

Its very good for a few people at the top, relatively good for quite a few people in the middle, and much the same as before for a minority at the bottom.

kwinabeeste

darkman2 wrote:

A country of such contradictions, a crap health service, a questionable road network, an incapacitated military, an asylum problem, rampant criminality and corruption at the highest level to name a few but we are the 4th richest country in the world If someone had of said just 8 years ago we would be in such an envious posisition we would have cracked up laughing. Then again we did have a statistic last year saying we were 'the best country in which to live in the world'


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_percap

The survey is income! We are new money and have had years of lower income growth than most other countries. This prevented the various governments to spend and improve the infrastructure of the country. Since the late 80's Ireland's growth has been better than most countries and have STARTED to catch up, but we are still not there....YET!