10/20 PLO - ummmmm kinda in two minds

fuzzbox

I dont know if I played this good, or played it bad.

Lets see what you guys thing.

10/20 PLO
I have 2.3k in the blinds with A776 ss clubs to the ace
Villain covers behind me somewhere.

Preflop
Limped pot - 3 to the flop

Flop (60)
As Ks 7d
I check - villain pots, folded to me, I just call (question the first)

Turn (180)
5c
I check, villain pots, I repot (question the second), villain calls

River (1500)
2h
I check (question the third)


Ummmmm.

ianmc38

Why not bet the river? Any non-monkey is raising you preflop with AA/KK

fuzzbox

I am intending to call a bet on the river.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I am intending to call a bet on the river.

I should hope so.

I dont think a missed draw or AK will fire another shot after you check-raised the turn, hence I lead the river.

5starpool

This is a tricky hand. my line in this would be check call flop and turn and pot/call raise on river.

It is hard to put opponent on trip aces due to no preflop raise and you having one of them. If he has trip kings he would likely have repotted you again, unless he is the type of guy to see if the draws would miss before comitting all his stack. I think his likely holding here is at least 2 if not 3 broadway cards with spades, or possibly top 2.

Turn and river should not have helped in any way so if you felt you were ahead on the flop you are still ahead. Basically bet the bejaysus out of it on the river here once you arrived here. There are only 2 hands you are in trouble against (unless backdoor 3,4 - unlikely) and as I said AA seems unlikely. Then again this guy may not raise preflop with any holdings, but i have to assume he would.

careca

You can definetly rule out AA here as he would have re-repotted the turn, well I would anyway but thats just the fitz omaha coming out in me.

I wouldnt rule out KK but again I would have expected a raise on the turn if only to see where he is.

I would certainly bet the river whether I pot it again or just bet about 7/800 is another matter.

Tricky one really.

Lafortezza

I think you played it perfectly. Villain would likely have raised AAxx or KKxx preflop, and he should have definitely have raised you again on the turn if he had AAxx or KKxx.
Checking the river allows him to bet AKxx, the missed flush draw and the missed QJTx type hands.

Worst case scenario is that he was freerolling with AAxx or KKxx suited in spades and decided to play it slower. If you had less than a half pot bet on the river I'd probably throw it in at the end.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I should hope so.

I dont think a missed draw or AK will fire another shot after you check-raised the turn, hence I lead the river.

Will either of those hands call a river bet?

fuzzbox

Results:
He bet 750 and I called, half expecting to see KKxx.
He turned over AK86, for top two and a oesd.

Dunno if he calls a river pot.

RoundTower

I don't like the flop, I would lead or check raise here every time. Once you got to the turn as you did, I think check raise is good. Not sure about the river, you probably aren't getting paid by a worse hand either way though.

What impression do you think an average opponent gets when you check raise the turn and check the river? Would you give up on a complete miss here? To me it looks like a missed draw with some showdown value, maybe an ace. On the other hand, if you bet you could have absolutely nothing.

fuzzbox

RoundTower wrote:

I don't like the flop, I would lead or check raise here every time. Once you got to the turn as you did, I think check raise is good. Not sure about the river, you probably aren't getting paid by a worse hand either way though.

What impression do you think an average opponent gets when you check raise the turn and check the river? Would you give up on a complete miss here? To me it looks like a missed draw with some showdown value, maybe an ace. On the other hand, if you bet you could have absolutely nothing.

RT -
Yeah, often I lead - but this is the kind of flop that I can get pushed off easily, and maybe my hand is good.
Check/raising with lots of money left to bet, on a highly charged flop, out of position is not something I relish - I basically make it 240 to play with 2k behind, and I hate every turn card ... and I might already be screwed.
So i fancied keeping the pot small for a street, to see a turn and increase my equity Vs draws, and maybe get a better read on his hand.

Plus a turn c/r gets more money in relative to stacks, and might get a fold from a goodish draw/middle set (yeah right). My c/r could be viewed as a big draw gone wrong ... or as an obvious check/call a bluff. Or maybe I have twopair, and dont think he can call a bet.

I lose value Vs AK, but maybe ... just maybe - he bets a missed draw. Or (as he did) value bets AK.

Do you think he calls with AK if I bet a grand?

RoundTower

I'm not sure if he calls with AK if you bet, it depends on a lot of things. But I thought he would check behind with AK a lot, and obviously he didn't.

Benglian

Hmmmm…. I was thinking about this hand in bed and just had to get up again and write about it.
I am gonna post what I think before I read through the thread so I don’t taint my thinking…

This hand is more interesting than it first appears and really got me thinking.

Here we go...

"10/20 PLO
I have 2.3k in the blinds with A776 ss clubs to the ace
Villain covers behind me somewhere.
Preflop
Limped pot - 3 to the flop"

Crap hand, but played out of the blinds you need to hit hard...one of my rules is 'you need a premium hand to play out of position'

"Flop (60)
As Ks 7d
I check - villain pots, folded to me, I just call (question the first)"

Now a bet here might just be a steal, as I assume it's a button bet.
On the other hand it could be Aces, or Kings afraid of the flush/straight draw.
If the limp was from early position it could easily be aces...I tend to limp aces from early position, as 1) I can't raise enough to drive anyone out, 2) I'm out of position, 3) if i miss it's cost me the minimum, and 4) If I hit it's disguised.
If the late position limped then this chance decreases a bit.

I don't like the call. It tells you nothing. I think with deap stacks i would re-raise here. I HATE bottom set. Bottom set can easily cost you your stack unless you find out where you are pretty sharpish. If he re-re-raises you then you can put it down, and you have to tread very very cautiously if he calls too.

He could be betting with QJT and the nut spades (the Q) but with position why not just take the free card, and let YOU 'bluff' if something comes....? After all, if he is on a draw what's he aftraid of? The board pairing? At least he knows his draw's dead then.....if you suddenly start to bet at him.

"Turn (180)
5c
I check, villain pots, I repot (question the second), villain calls"

A blank comes and he bets...? If he doesn't have QJT with the spades what does he put you on? A crap spade draw? and/or Two pair? No, no he puts YOU on the draw, and wants you to pay for it. ie - he has a set/two pair and you are staring down the barrell.

If he is on the draw then he checks behind for the free card....

So you re-raise....a bit late, but at least we will get some (costly) information out of it now.

DISASTER! He calls.... What can he have now? Fair enough for the initial bet could have been betting his draw, but to call your re-raise? with MAX 16 outs and you unlikely to pay if he does hit...not exactly very +EV. No. He has a set, and a bigger one than you. You are in trouble here. You cannot call a bet on the river...and he knows what you have...and you're OOP...oh dear oh dear.

I assume that players at this level can actually play PLO?

"River (1500)
2h
I check (question the third)"

Another blank and of course you have to check, hoping against hope that your Re-raise on the turn will convince his (only thing you can beat) top two/busted nut flush draw to check behind you.....meanwhile he is sick as a dog that he didn't set you in on the turn.

Actually, that could be a flaw in my thinking....why DIDN'T he set you in on the turn? Could you fold to a re-raise there for another $1600? Sure you could, but what about a min-raise....? Hmmmmmm....

This is one of those hands that really is quite interesting.....and involved...and of course I could never perform this sort of analysis in the time it takes to decide what to do....and I play at 1/2 with the occasional dabble at 2/4...so cannot comment on the 10/20 game, but like i said I assume that these players can actually play PLO?

Me myself, I only play PLO, as I seem to really suck at Hold'em.

Now I will post this and then read the rest of the thread, presumably finding out that he bet 1/3 pot, you re-raised, and he called with top two...? Thus shooting my detailed analysis out of the water, and making me look like a complete muppet. Again. (I still haven't even figured out how to "quote" another post!)


LOL

Benglian

I knew it!

Bloody top two! I hate it when my top two get called down by bottom set!

Doesn't anybody else know they are supposed to fold bottom set?

You got away lucky here.....could easily have been AA or KK....

But then what do I know?

Bah! Humbug!

fuzzbox

Hi Benglian - thanks for your input - perhaps I left out some info.

I was in the big blind (thus in for free)
Villain open limped in LP somewhere.

RoundTower

Ian it sounds like you are used to much less aggressive games. I don't play this high, or at least I try not to, but even the bad players are much more aggressive than at the smaller stakes. It's definitely possible villain is bluffing or semi-bluffing (and it could be a lot less than QJT + nut spades).