An honest question....

Dragan

Hey guys, on the board lately we have seen a lot of stuff about RBSD and MMA and TMA translating to fights on the street ( sorry to the RBSD boys, but specific train all you want, if you never been in a scrap then it's still a learning curve you need to go through! ) and i have seen every sort of argument and point made about the benfits of all three training styles to any possible street situation.

However, i just have one question. I assume that we can all agree that the time people are at the most likelihood of attack is when out having pints, yes no? People are always more likely to let tempers flare, or strike out, or just get drunk and not realise they are being a d*ck who might annoy someone enough to throw something at them, be it boot, fist or pint glass!!!

Now then, my question is simple ( and stems from the "train in street clothes thing." ). Hypothetically, if someone is training for the circumstances they might be attacked in on the street, what about alchohol???

I mean lets be honest, be as smooth and quick as you like either on the mat or running your drills but alchohol will have it's wicked way!

So, how much of a nullifying effect do you think alchohol will have on your skills?

Anyone who wants to answer can, and i am also trying to convey a point also!

Hank_Scorpio

You never know what's going to happen on the street or in a pub. You just have to hope that you use your skills appropriately to keep it from getting out of hand.

I've been drunk before and can honestly say I could not possibly of defended my self against a sober person.

TapouT

Hank_Scorpio wrote:

You never know what's going to happen on the street or in a pub. You just have to hope that you use your skills appropriately to keep it from getting out of hand.

I've been drunk before and can honestly say I could not possibly of defended my self against a sober person.

I've never had a street fight while I was drunk. I've been working doors over 15yrs now so I've had my share of fights.

I did however come close in Templebar recently. I'd a liberal amount of Guinness and whiskeys onboard and got the nod from a scumbag. Of course being full of gargle I stepped up to the plate!. But in all honesty had it went off I wasn't in a position to box eggs, let alone win a street fight!.

Mick Coup

I've often run training sessions using alcohol as an impeding factor - very amusing at times, but there has to be sober people in control for safety, coaching and overall control.

I generally add this on to the latter portion of workshops covering situational and positional tactics, plus training is conducted in a wide variety of enviroments - try your pad drills inside a car for example - and arms/legs/hands are strapped up to simulate injuries, goggles can be worn smeared in vaseline to simulate partial blindness etc etc.

Just introducing fatigue as a stress simulator is enough to see the skill levels drop way down - plus power and speed are reduced dramatically also as soon as the effects from the body's 'chemical cocktail' are felt.

All the above underlines the importance of simple gross-motor skills for combat, and exposure to it is an innoculation of sorts - don't let the first time that you experience the adverse effects of such performance-reducing factors be the time you are in the real thing.

Just my thoughts.

Mick

Hank_Scorpio

I wouldn't mind trying the drinking method as long as the alcohol is free

Boru.

Excelletn question Dragan and I agree 100%. Its why

1) I don't drink
2) I don't go out to pubs or clubbing if I cna avoid it - besides I'm busy training;)

As regards to your suggestion about drinking I've had students do it once or twice. But more often that not we're happy to simulate in in other ways. Try this one. Blindfold someone, spin them around to their nearly sick and really dizzy, whip off the blindfold and have somone attack them full force and watch what happens? - Wild swining, loss of balance, poor coordination, inability to focus, the regular Staurday night for some of them...:)

Harley Man

Interesting question.

The impacts of alcohol to the body vary from person to person. I've seen my share of easy going drunks, funny drunks and aggressive drunks. Alcohol impairs motor skills but it can also make the person feel invincible. IMHO this is a very dangerous combination. You can think you're a great fighter, but by the time you find out your not it's too late.

But...

For well trained fighters/martial artist who have practiced to the point where their techniques are burnt into their muscle memory and are second nature to them, could having a little buzz on improve their ability by removing any inhibitions they may have about being in a fight and just letting their muscle memory take over?

Just a thought...

Scubadevils

Seems a possible thought but then of course we walk without thinking but when drink is involved that can go a tad wrong

I have seen drunk fights where martial arts have been used and its not a pretty sight, in fact its horrible to watch.

Odysseus

Hi all, new to this board. As stated above its an interesting question, my own understanding of being attacked when you have had a few drinks is that that it is likely that it would be a case of social violence. By this I mean, the person attacking is likely to be drunk themselves, and for some unkown reason has taken offence to you.

Not that this means the attack is any less violent. As the attacker may have some mates willing to join. Of course there is the point that this may not be the case, and the attack may be about some form of robbery, i.e. mugging. Don't get me wrong "social violence" for want of a better word, can be just as vicious as criminal violence.

Self defense for me is more than a set core moves, though this is important. It is additionally about a mindset. Being aware as far as possible in relation to your environment, and what is happening there. Therefore, whilst I do enjoy a drink, I will limit my drinking when I out, stop all together, or leave a place if I do not like the feeling I'm getting. Still does'nt mean you won't be attacked, but it may limit the damage.

I have never trained under the influence, but the points made about in relation to whilst fighting fatigued are spot on. There is nothing better to remind you how vunerable you can be that seeing everything turning to sh*t, when your tired out. Which means to me that you must constantly experience this, and the pressure of being attacked by your fellow trainers, i.e more than one, in order to experience the fatigue, the pressure, and the effects it has on your body.

Hope this made some sense. Cheers.

memphis

I personally wouldn't be able to fight my way out of a paper bag with booze in me, without even considering having a chance of winning a street fight.

I was jumped after the night club once, and though I tried poorly to defend myself I guess it'd be fair to say I came out the worst end, with a very nasty black eye (guy was kicking me while I was down).

I gave up the drink for Lent, and though not drinking I did go out with friends. It was amazing how I respond to things in the pub when sober. I saw many a fight or arguement start, and I just stood back and kept outta the way. With drink in me I'd probably be more foolest, and do something stupid like ending up tryin to break it up and gettiing a smack for my efforts.

Like the alcohol idea during training. Wouldn't mind tryin it in TKD, just to see what it'd be like. Though most of the class are kids.... can imagine them falling over on the smell of the stuff!!! hahaha

pma-ire

This is why if you have to do something to defend yourself in the real world you better use the K.I.S.S. method!!

Keep

It

Simple

Stupid

I've many young TKD'ers try to backside kick or spinkick or throw high turning kicks and sidekicks land on the floor cause they were acting the langer with drink in them.

So if any instructor teaches SD which looks very complicated then that instructor has'int thought out the reality of fighting. I try to keep things down to as few moves as possible with a safe result for me while keeping within the law.

GalwayorBust

I have been buzzed and drunk a few times when I show up to training back home. I'm much more relaxed and do very well when drunk. I don't know about blocking a punch from a sober scumbag.

topdog8

Its a tough one cos people are more likely to do crazy stuuf when drunk like glass u etc.. I dont drink for this reason plus i got a couple of crazy mates that if u go out with them ur garunteed a fight. so im like a babbysitter for them if they step out of line its the back of the hand

EPO_MAN

A doorman (retired) for years and I know that i could sneeze and knockout a drunk ( who probably was a champion MMA fighter but with a few beers and he's muck)

I think with booze on board it becomes primal and most (not all though) ma training goes out teh window and usually boils down to who'd handle themselves better in prison.

soma

Dragan wrote:

Now then, my question is simple ( and stems from the "train in street clothes thing." ). Hypothetically, if someone is training for the circumstances they might be attacked in on the street, what about alchohol???

The one & only time I have used my training (silat) in a self defence situation, I know that the main (possibly only) reason I actually pulled it off was that I was completely sober & the guy who went for me (unprovoked, on a flight of stairs believe it or not) was v drunk.

ShaneT

Just thinking a little from the other side of the coin. I've also done a fair bit of work on the door. It's worth considering the effect that alcohol has on your opponent. Particularly if the techniques used against them are based on pain compliance.

Suddenly, finger locks don't work. Fingers just break and the idiot just keeps on swinging. "Knock out" shots don't work quite as well as expected since Junky Joe is already "punch drunk" and your own motor skills are reduced to mush etc. etc. etc.... Just worth thinking about. Not worth delivering a load of low kicks if your opponent can't feel his own legs....

Not only does alcohol decrease our own ability to perform but it increases the pain tolerance of the opponent.

I must admit, in my younger days on the door I would giggle to myself watching a couple of lager louts knock seven shades of the brown stuff out of the eachother (once safely removed from the premises of course) for prolonged periods of time because neither can feel the shots landing.

I've grown up since though and just don't find it funny anymore... :rolleyes:

-Shane.

Baggio...

It's a good question mate...

Unfortunately I do like the odd Whiskey or three. And after a liberal amount of alcohol I couldn't kick my way out of a paper bag. So the message is simple... don't drink too much when you are out (easier said than done though:D ).

Hmm.. be interested in having one of those training sessions with Mick. Although I fear my dinner would also be making an appearance:eek: .

Roper

ShaneT wrote:

Just thinking a little from the other side of the coin. I've also done a fair bit of work on the door. It's worth considering the effect that alcohol has on your opponent. Particularly if the techniques used against them are based on pain compliance.

Suddenly, finger locks don't work. Fingers just break and the idiot just keeps on swinging. "Knock out" shots don't work quite as well as expected since Junky Joe is already "punch drunk" and your own motor skills are reduced to mush etc. etc. etc.... Just worth thinking about. Not worth delivering a load of low kicks if your opponent can't feel his own legs....

Not only does alcohol decrease our own ability to perform but it increases the pain tolerance of the opponent.

I must admit, in my younger days on the door I would giggle to myself watching a couple of lager louts knock seven shades of the brown stuff out of the eachother (once safely removed from the premises of course) for prolonged periods of time because neither can feel the shots landing.

I've grown up since though and just don't find it funny anymore... :rolleyes:

-Shane.

Good post Shane. I was at a seminar with Matt Thornton and he used the example of Randle "Tex" Cobb, a boxer turned actor who went 14 with Larry Holmes. When he was a truck driver some guy hit him from behind with a baseball bat to the head and Tex just turned around and beat the snot out of him. How can you depend on your knockout punches if you're fighting him or similar, especially since there's none of us who's a Larry Holmes!:D I've seen guys take an awful lot of damage when drunk and still fight on. We came across a guy with his bottom lip hanging off one night after the guy he was fighting had bit him... and he was the "winner".

Dragan

So is the general concensus that for all the time spent training, the situation we are most likely to require it may render the whole thing useless?

ShaneT

Dragan wrote:

So is the general concensus that for all the time spent training, the situation we are most likely to require it may render the whole thing useless?

I wouldn't necessarily say useless. Particularly if our own intent is "self protection" not "opponent destruction". But, yes - if we consume more alcohol than our bodies can process and get ourselves into trouble - it's very likely that our training would be rendered useless.

Baggio said it best;

Baggio... wrote:

..the message is simple... don't drink too much when you are out...

I wouldn't wander the streets blindfolded waving my wallet in the air. And I hope that my days of wandering the streets "blind drunk" waving my beer bottle in the air are also over.

Roper wrote:

How can you depend on your knockout punches if you're fighting him (Cobb) or similar, especially since there's none of us who's a Larry Holmes

I liked that comment. It's something us "martial artists" tend to forget. Am I a boxer? Yes. Am I Tyson? No. Am I a full contact martial artist? Yes. Am I Wanderlei Silva? NO! Hell No!

And with a little luck... ...due to my distinctly jolly disposition I'll never need to be!

Roper wrote:

I've seen guys take an awful lot of damage when drunk and still fight on. We came across a guy with his bottom lip hanging off one night after the guy he was fighting had bit him... and he was the "winner".

Ditto. It's sad to see the Saturday night heroes that just don't know when to quit.

-Shane.