Help wanted-position of rads in extension

FrankGrimes

I need to plan the location of the radiators in an extension I am putting to the side of our house. You can see in the attached images that there will be a kitchen/dining room with a study to the front of the extension. The kitchen will have a flat ceiling as it is in the existing house and the dining part of the kitchen/dining room will be in the extension so it will have a pitched roof (side wall of extension will be a gable end as in attached image). Study part of extension will have a flat ceiling.

Total area of kitchen/dining room is 27 sq metres (290 sq ft) and its volume, including the pitched ceiling in the dining room part is 90 cubic metres (3179 cubic foot). I estimate a total of ~9,000 BTU required for this room.
Total are of study is 10.64 sq metres (114 sq ft) and its volume is 27.6 cubic metres (974 cubic foot). I estimate a total of 4,000 BTU required for this room.

I’m currently planning on putting a vertical radiator at point A in the kitchen part. I’m also thinking of a second vertical rad at point B in the dining part with a horizontal rad at point C under the bay window in the study. There will be a dresser and shelves running along the wall at point D, but a vertical rad could possibly fit in a point D.

I suppose I could run feeds to all four rad points in the image (A, B, C, and D) which would give me the option to decide on location of the rad in the dining room (B or D) when the walls are built. What do you think of the proposed locations and would it be wisest to run pipes to both point B and D?

There are ¾ inch copper pipes running from the boiler to Rad A (red lines). I am joining ¾ inch qualpex barrier pipe to these copper pipes and running it to point D (pink line – showing one for simplicity). I would then branch of this with ½ inch qualpex to run pipes to point B and point C (green lines). Is this the best way to do it or should I use ¾ inch pipe all the way to point C?

Seriously indebted to anyone who can give some suggestions or advice on this.

rooferPete

Hi Frank,

My first thoughts are that you will be reducing the pipes to 1/2" at the point where the longest run is to rad "C", that could leave you with difficulty balancing the radiators.

I know you will be connecting into the rads with 1/2", I can't remember exactly why but I do recall a problem in the past where flow and return appeared to ignore the 1/2" tees when there were other rads served by the main flow and return.

.

karltimber

Hi frank,

here's my 2 cents worth .
I will be doing something very similar.
I would stay with 3/4 to all rads and goto 1/2 at the rads themselves.
Vertical rads sound nice - make sure they blend in well and look good.

maybe this is wrong but thats what I had planned for mine.

hope this helps.

karltimber

rooferPete wrote:

I know you will be connecting into the rads with 1/2", I can't remember exactly why but I do recall a problem in the past where flow and return appeared to ignore the 1/2" tees when there were other rads served by the main flow and return.

.

how can this be corrected ??
my oil system here just coverts from 3/4 to 1/2 to all rads and it works fine.
if frank coverted to 1/2' at point A -would that help/fix it.

FrankGrimes

thanks for the input.

I've got a tight schedule and need to buy the gear in the morning (pouring the slab on Friday).

So I think I will run 3/4 inch pipes horizontally to all 4 rad points (what are your feelings on the locations?) and then only break them out into 1/2 inch pipes when coming vertically up from the slab to rad location. I'm planning on bringing the rad feeds out from the wall to the valves as opposed to up from below.

I'm not sure what the problem would be caused if I used 1/2 inch pipes for the horizontal runs but it seems there's less chance of problems with 3/4 inch pipes so why not use them right? I assume running the last foot or so to the rads in 1/2 inch pipe will not cause a problem?

If it helps, some of the rads in the house are fed off 3/4 inch pipes (broken into 1/2 inch at the rads), while others are fed off 1/2 inch all the way. Actually, I think all of upstairs is 1/2 inch if I remember correctly.

That said, the plumber was a total cowboy and we have been having non stop problems with pressure dropping (though I can't find any leaks) and trapped air in the highest point (vertical towel rad in upstairs bathroom), so maybe these symptoms are consistent with what rooferPete said might happen.

flocker

If space is a problem in the kitchen dining area you could use a kickspace heater. This fits into the space beneath the cupboard where the kickboard is. It runs using a flow and return from the CH and has an integral fan that kicks in when the water reaches a certain temperature.

If the kitchen has a breakfast bar dividing the kitchen/dining area you could mount a rad under the counter. (if you understand) I have seen it done on island units and it is very effective especially in the morning when your having you breakfast.

For pipe runs from B to C or D to C you can reduce from ¾ to ½. EG the fitting at B would be ¾ x ½ x ½. One ½ would feed rad B and the other rad C. No need to take ¾ to C.

FrankGrimes

That idea of a rad at the breakfast bar sounds intriguing - we do plan on having a breakfast bar between kitchen and diner.

As the pipes in the kitchen area will still be exposed for another few weeks after I pour the slab in the extension we still have time to consider this so I will definitely keep the option open.

Even if I can get away with 1/2inch pipes to point C, is there any possible downside in using 3/4 inch to all points? If this may solve any potential problems with 1/2 inch withouth having its own downsides then it might be the best option.

flocker

Frank,

if you have over hang on the worktop bar area the radiator can go the back of the press. ( make sure that it can support the rad ). It can save space and you have heat beside you when eating your breakfast. On the couple l have seen fitted they dont prevent the heat from circulating into the rest of the room. They are partially hidden too. A tall vertical rad can look good but they can be expensive.

On the pipe size, you are going to have to reduce to ½ anyway so no need to bring it all the way down in ¾.

rooferPete

Hi Frank,

A late post but I agree with flocker, if you take all the pipe work from A in 1/2" there should be no problem, most ground floors were piped in 1/2" because even with Solid Fuel systems (gravity feed) the pump was needed to service downstairs because the hot water rises.

The only benefit there is in using 3/4 all the way is to make balancing the system easier.

I have fitted the rads flocker described under the kitchen units (Smiths UK I think) they worked very well and were fan assisted when the heat reached 60 degrees Farenheit.

So you still have options.

FrankGrimes

Really appreciate the advice.

I will be converting to 1/2 inch at point A and will be running all pipes from there to points B,C, and D in 1/2 inch, with the possible inclusion of pipes for a new point E at the breakfast bar.

Any pics or links on the style of rad to go under the breakfast bar would be a great help in explaining it to the better half

karltimber

lads,

the rad under an island -- is this horizontal ?
Does it sit flat with a fan heater at the side of it ??

I was going to run 2.5sq cable to this position and out in an electric kick heater but the standard water rad sounds good.

any links etc

thx


good luck Frank

FrankGrimes

Thanks Karl, heading off to get stuck into that plumbing now.

If I find any info on the rad for the breakfast bar I'll give you a shout.

flocker

Karltimber,

the link below may help you. This unit only needs 1.5 cable going to it, it's not a heavy load, just driving a small fan.

kickspace heater

This fits into the Kickspace its approc 100mm high x 500mm wide x 500 deep it comes complete with flexible hoses so that you take the unit out if it ever needs maintainence. It has different coloured front grills to suit you style of kitchen and is available in different outputs.

The kickspace heaters can be a little expensive compared with a conventional radiator. A standard radiator can be fitted to an island unit in the standard way. Very good for a breakfast bar situation on a cold winters morning, sitting right beside the heat.

Hope this helps.

karltimber

Flocker,

they look excellent -- was going to put in a Consort electric one in the new island but will now consider the Duo model (central heating + electric).

Do you know who supplies these here or from the UK and basic cost.
The consort one was about euro150 odd.

Thx

flocker

Karltimber,

I'm not familiar with the Duo model, l imagine that hey could be hard enough on electricity (3kw).

The last myson kickspace heater 600 cost approx €300. You should be able to get them in any plumbing suppliers or specialist kitchen appliance supplier EG KAL

There are probably other brands available, but we have never had any trouble with the Myson brand, although we have'nt fitted that many of them.

You will get them in Ireland, no need to go to the UK for them.

netwhizkid

One suggestion,

Don't put Radiators under any windows. I see it done in every house in the country and it is the biggest mistake ever. When the curtain are pulled it channels all the heat up behind them and up to the ceiling where it is lost and useless. Plus some beds are put up against a wall and this sandwiches the heat up further! It is done this way in my house and it is like a dungeon in the winter. Keep those rads away from the windows anyway.