Button Limping Vs Button Raising

NickyOD

It always amazes how so many player's habits are set in stone. For some reason if its folded to certain players on the button and they wish to enter the pot they feel compelled to open the betting with a raise instead of limping.

Under what circumstances might button limping be a better option in a multi table NLHE tournament?

Lately I have taken to open limping on the button a lot more than raising. The main reason is usually because the blinds aren't worth stealing early in the tournament but also becuase my hand might not be worth creating a raised pot with. Q-7 suited for example is hand I will open limp with on the button when stacks are relatively deep. I think this is a much better option than folding or raising, since I take advantage of my position by entering the pot on the button and I don't commit too many chips with a marginal hand. I would most likely raise with any Ace with a kicker 9 or better and any decent King, but limp with hand as low as 45 suited. I might even open limp with hands as bad as 69o. When the blinds get worth stealing though I would probably only enter the pot with a raise.

Thoughts?

connie147

Nicky,I'm of much the same opinion.,specially when the blinds are small.Only time you wanna be raising is when you wanna build a pot.Ive written this before ive seen any answers to your post but i'll be very interested in the replies.Unless youve a genuine raising hand when the blinds are small.I think its pointless open raising off the button with sh***..nice post Nick

Hectorjelly

Why would you not raise? You havent given a good reason not to. You raise so as to make life hard for the blinds, (they can either fold preflop and give up the blinds or be forced to play a raised pot out of position), and because of the advantage that position gives you means that taking almost any 2 cards in that situation is going to be profitable. If you raise preflop you vastly increase the chance of winning a big pot. Also importantly the more you splash around preflop the more action you will get with your big hands.

The only time open limping on the button makes sense is if you are against a very aggressive player in the blinds who is likely to reraise any raise, or for deception with a big hand.

TacT

anytime you have tens, Jacks or better when some maniac is in the blinds with A7 SOOTED?

ntlbell

huh?

Daithio

You need to mix it up. Any one strategy is never going to work. In general though I think limping on the button alot will only work against weak tight players, in which case you should be trying to just take down their blinds without seeing a flop.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

since I take advantage of my position by entering the pot on the button and I don't commit too many chips with a marginal hand.

I think you are suggesting that raising on the button somewhat nullifies the advantage you have of being in position. In fact when the stacks are deep the opposite is true.

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

You need to mix it up. Any one strategy is never going to work. In general though I think limping on the button alot will only work against weak tight players, in which case you should be trying to just take down their blinds without seeing a flop.

Open limping isnt a strategy, its a leak.

pok3rplaya

raising gives you two ways to win.

NickyOD

It's probably more to do with the tournaments I've playerd recently and the oposition I've faced that this has come into play. If you ever open limp in a large buy in event against good poker players you usually get your head cut off and probably rightly so. In fact its very rare in a tournament full of good player that you would get the oportunity to open limp on the button whent he blinds are small.

Let me make it clear that I'm only talking about open limping on the button, not any other position and only when the blinds are relatively small in comparison to your stack.

For example a hand like 5-7s whent he blinds are 10-20 with a stack of 1500. I have zero interest in creating a raised pot with this hand but I don't want to give up my button. If the players in the blinds are bad/loose then I'm even less inclined to button raise because they will often build a pot for me any way and I'd like to see a flop first before they do that.

I also don't want to give myself the image of a "button raiser". If I raise with these hands early in a tournament and they are shown I lose respect when blind stealing becomes important later on. Yes, I could be doing it with Aces later but I'm much more likely to be doing it with 9T-KJ. I have been a compulsive obsessive button raiser in the past and I've found it only leads to having your continuation bets snapped off and getting check raised continuaously. There's nothing worse than button raising, never taking the blinds and constantly missing the flop. Like Dave said you have to mix it up.

Button limping can often throw people off. I remember a hand I played in the the €500 event at the IPT in Dublin. Where I had about 40 blinds half way througth the tournament and both the stacks in the blinds were also well stacked. It was folded to me on the button and I have 78o. It's not in my interest to get involved in a big pot with either of these players but I don't want to give up my button. I know that they will be more suspicious of a limp than a raise so I limped. SB completed. BB checked.

Flop comes X-9-J. SB leads out with a pot bet for 1800, BB folds and I reraise to about 4000 on my gutshot which won the pot. If I button raise in this spot the most likely outcome of the hand would have been a lead out from the SB which I can't raise because the pot has been inflated OR I might have been check raised.

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

For example a hand like 5-7s whent he blinds are 10-20 with a stack of 1500. I have zero interest in creating a raised pot with this hand but I don't want to give up my button. If the players in the blinds are bad/loose then I'm even less inclined to button raise because they will often build a pot for me any way and I'd like to see a flop first before they do that.

You are better off folding than limping here - its very rare that you will end up with a strong hand, and even rarer that the blinds will have a hand good enough to pay you off with. Your hand is rubbish in this scenario.If you raise preflop you increase the chance of stacking someone AND make it easier to win the pot. By raising you win the pot unless the blinds make a hand on the flop, by limping the reverse is true

NickyOD wrote:

I also don't want to give myself the image of a "button raiser". If I raise with these hands early in a tournament and they are shown I lose respect when blind stealing becomes important later on.

How often do these hands get showdown? How often are you on the same table when the blinds constitute a sizable proportion of your stack? Just be aware of your image and you will be fine.

NickyOD wrote:

I have been a compulsive obsessive button raiser in the past and I've found it only leads to having your continuation bets snapped off and getting check raised continuaously. There's nothing worse than button raising, never taking the blinds and constantly missing the flop. Like Dave said you have to mix it up.

Mixing it up doesnt mean deliberatlly playing badly - it seems that you are button raising too much and then continue betting far too much - the answer to that is not limping 7 hi on the buttonm its folding and creating a less exploitable strategy

NickyOD wrote:

Button limping can often throw people off. I remember a hand I played in the the €500 event at the IPT in Dublin. Where I had about 40 blinds half way througth the tournament and both the stacks in the blinds were also well stacked. It was folded to me on the button and I have 78o. It's not in my interest to get involved in a big pot with either of these players but I don't want to give up my button. I know that they will be more suspicious of a limp than a raise so I limped. SB completed. BB checked.

Flop comes X-9-J. SB leads out with a pot bet for 1800, BB folds and I reraise to about 4000 on my gutshot which won the pot. If I button raise in this spot the most likely outcome of the hand would have been a lead out from the SB which I can't raise because the pot has been inflated OR I might have been check raised.

This example is totally beside the point. Limping when the blinds are bigger because you think your opponents will put you on AA or KK is not what we are talking about, and there are plenty of scenarios where you wish you hand raised preflop - if you had raised and the flop was 456 you are much more likely to have stacked someone.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

For example a hand like 5-7s whent he blinds are 10-20 with a stack of 1500. I have zero interest in creating a raised pot with this hand but I don't want to give up my button.

I don't understand this. You think it is profitable to play an unraised pot on the button here. So why is it unprofitable to play a pot 3 times as big against the same players with the same hand?

Most likely either it is profitable to play a bigger pot, or it wasn't profitable in the first place.

smurph

NickyOD wrote:

It always amazes how so many player's habits are set in stone. For some reason if its folded to certain players on the button and they wish to enter the pot they feel compelled to open the betting with a raise instead of limping.

Under what circumstances might button limping be a better option in a multi table NLHE tournament?

Lately I have taken to open limping on the button a lot more than raising. The main reason is usually because the blinds aren't worth stealing early in the tournament but also becuase my hand might not be worth creating a raised pot with. Q-7 suited for example is hand I will open limp with on the button when stacks are relatively deep. I think this is a much better option than folding or raising, since I take advantage of my position by entering the pot on the button and I don't commit too many chips with a marginal hand. I would most likely raise with any Ace with a kicker 9 or better and any decent King, but limp with hand as low as 45 suited. I might even open limp with hands as bad as 69o. When the blinds get worth stealing though I would probably only enter the pot with a raise.

Thoughts?

Just say the flop is 2 5 7 rainbow and you have Q7 and let the big blind in for free and he had say 5 7 offsuit or 2 7. Raise if you are going to play, then a small flop wouldn't be as scary, or might not get you into trouble.

Mind you in a tournament couple of weeks ago, I raised preflop to 250 with blinds 25 50, with pocket JJ's, go 5 callers. Flop K Q 5, needless to say the monster that is K5 diamonds, won.