knife fighting

judomick

just would like to know if everyone agrees with the general point of this video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3314413849946719103&q=paul+vunak&pl=true

TapouT

judomick wrote:

just would like to know if everyone agrees with the general point of this video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3314413849946719103&q=paul+vunak&pl=true

Well I can't say I'm an authority on knife fighting/defence but I tend to agree with the guy on one thing. "you have about 3 seconds to do something", I believe that most street fights (regardless if there's a knife used or not) are won and lost in the first three seconds.

Other than that I wouldn't know what else to say.

I have fought one chap with a knife before. If you remember a story 'The Star' newspaper ran last year about a post office robbery in Phibsboro and a guy from the Congo tackling the robber in the shop. Anyway, the article mentions a soldier coming to the aid of the African preacher. I was the soldier. The robber was armed with a knife and fake gun, the gun fell away pretty quick but the fight continued on the ground with me trying to wrestle the knife from his fist. Thank god I wasn't cut, but I was in short sleeves like the guy in the video and I've no doubt had he cut me the situation would have turned against me pretty fast. The Afraican had lost alot of blood from a head wound and had passed out, passers by were stepping over and around me and the robber, despite me wearing an army uniform. Luckily the guards came before I was stabbed, but had I been stabbed anywhere, I think I'd have been fvcked.

Btw, the guy recently got 13yrs in prison for that and other charges (including attempted murder with a knife on another person).

MarkBrophy

im not sure what his point is. With the drill he uses his guy gets slashed four times and accomplishes nothing. Is he trying to say that all knife defense is pointless? Obviously i agree that the better option is always to run away. But maybe the technique he says doesnt work at the begining would be better if it at least has a possibilty of disarming the atacker instead of dancing around getting slashed four times in 30secs

TapouT

Mark I should say in relation to my story. I think had I been in different circumstances I think I'd have made a hasty escape and thanked my god for my escape.

But if like the victim in the video your left with no alternative but to stand and fight, I think 99% of people would be up to their necks in it. Although the 'wounds' inflicted on the victim in the video were defensive in their nature and probably not fatal so the victim stay had time to beat a hasty escape (if the oppertunity arose).

I'd be interested in anyone whose done a knife defence course, and hearing from anyone else whose faced a knife in real life too.

MarkBrophy

I did the carl tanswell stab program. Thought it was pretty good. My point is that at least with karls system you might be able to control your attacker and disarm them. what i saw in that video seemed to be just postponing the inevitable.

dlofnep

i can't hear it so i don't know what the point he is making is.. But my opinion on knifes is, if you get stabbed, it's usually when you're not expecting it. Like a sucker punch.. A boxer trains to avoid punches all the time, but if he is sucker punched, he will be hit. I think the same applys for knife defense.. you might be able to train in a way to stop knife attacks you know are coming.. but I think mostly, you'd get stabbed when you least expect it - and by then, it's probably too late.

uberpixie

MarkBrophy wrote:

im not sure what his point is. With the drill he uses his guy gets slashed four times and accomplishes nothing. Is he trying to say that all knife defense is pointless? Obviously i agree that the better option is always to run away. But maybe the technique he says doesnt work at the begining would be better if it at least has a possibilty of disarming the atacker instead of dancing around getting slashed four times in 30secs

Think he was just making the point that if you tackle a person with a knife you get cut badly.

That you will not get close enough to remove a knife from a person without getting cut badly.

He just wanted to show how easy it is to get cut by a knife, where you get cut by the knife and why fighting someone who has a knife when you don't is a bad idea.

To be fair he gets the point across

padraigcarroll

i agree with the general point of the video, which i take to be, that , if you stay engaged in a tussle with a someone trying to slash you with a knife, you will get cut, and it wont be pretty.

Baggio...

Howdy,

I agree with Vunak's general concept, knives are very dangerous and that you will probably receive some form of injury (if you survive). But his technique looks very contrived and Dojo based. There is no way a real opponent would attack you like that. Therefore I don't think his stuff would work at all. Nice cuts on the beef though...mmmmmmm.

As Mark pointed out that the guy had 3 or 4 defensive wounds on the inside of his forearms. That's a really bad place to get cut with all those arteries and tendons, etc. The best knife defenses that I have seen all involve trying (again the emphasis here is on TRYING) to parry the blade with you palms facing in so you would get cut on the outside of the arms. There is more meat for protection and no vitals.

Not to sure what the best approach would be, parry and strike at the same time? Don't know... It's easy to say “do this and that”, but when the time came can't say how I'd really handle it.

I'd be interested to hear how Mick's system (C2 Core Combatives) might handle such a situation.

Cheers,


B.

FiannaGym.com

I thought that was a pretty good video. That dude attackign with the magic marker looked like neapolian dynomites brother, maybe he is training to be a cage fighter after all.

When we did stab loads of people were doing that type of sparring, where as we took double neck tie and dropped twenty or thirty short (chalk) stabs to the neck. I think your lucky if you get a dude that has been so indoctrinated inot Martial Arts that he will dance around like your having a semi contact spar.

Peace

Ballisong

If all your going to do is slap at the attackers hand like that and keep backing away then of course your going to get cut :rolleyes: . The attacker only has to worry about attacking, if the other guy tapped properly and started to fight back, the knife guy can no longer just attack he has to defend, so the level of his attacks decrease and your chances of survival increase.

Not sure if i agree with his statement about you going into shock from a cut to your forearm and how you deal with it, that depends on your training and how you deal emotionally with that kind of thing. The meat cuts are good and I've done something similar while testing blades, what he's not saying is that the cut will depend on a number of things, how sharp your blade is, what your wearing and how well you can tap a knife attack.

Baggio...

Good point to make about the body going into shock, it's not quite as straight forward as Vunak makes out. There are many reports of soldiers/cops continuing to fight after receiving far worse injuries. I guess it depends on the individual, and the will to fight.

Quillo

Much as demonstrations showing the damage a blade can do to a side of beef are eye-opening, I can't help but feel that this is a bit bit like the good old demonstrations showing poeple breaking bricks and boards with there hands.

Yes, both show what damage can be done to a static taregt but neither factor in the difficulties of doing the same damage to a moving and resisting target.

Ballisong

Much as demonstrations showing the damage a blade can do to a side of beef are eye-opening, I can't help but feel that this is a bit bit like the good old demonstrations showing poeple breaking bricks and boards with there hands.

Yes, both show what damage can be done to a static target but neither factor in the difficulties of doing the same damage to a moving and resisting target.

Exactly, who the hell is just going to stand in front of a Live blade. Cuts on meat are generally done to test blades and to make everyone have a little bit more respect for what a knife can do, alot of knife systems get very complacent using training blades and forget what kind of damage a knife can do, meat cutting is one way of stopping the rot setting in. The "sparring" in the clip is the type of training that would get you killed. And gives FMA a bad name. :mad:

cletus

I have never done any knife defense courses, all my training has been for enjoyment rather than self defence, so I know very little about it, however fianna's comment about semi contact sparring is, to me, very relevent.

I have always been of the opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong please, that sombody who intends to stab you or hit you with a weapon, is less likley to brandish said weapon around like a knife fight in the movies. They are more likely to blind side you and stab you without ever showing the weapon, which leaves very little time for parrying, locking up the attackers arm etc.

just my 20c (cause the euro isn't worth sh1t:D )

Quillo

cletus wrote:

I have always been of the opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong please, that sombody who intends to stab you or hit you with a weapon, is less likley to brandish said weapon around like a knife fight in the movies. They are more likely to blind side you and stab you without ever showing the weapon, which leaves very little time for parrying, locking up the attackers arm etc.

Marc MacYoung has a saying:
"Stabbers don't show and showers don't stab".

Lot of good stuff on his website:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com

Mick Coup

Baggio,

Apologies for not posting sooner mate, just been a little snowed under with teaching and the like.

Knife fighting? What's that? I saw a musical once called 'West Side Story' that had a bit of knife fighting in it - between the Jets and the Sharks - but for real, in all the years that I've been in harm's way, I'm struggling to recall incidents involving two men both with knives having a fight!

Before I get into this further, I'd like to cover a couple of points first.

Terminology can be a tricky deal - it can programme certain mental imagery that can be wholly inaccurate and in turn can establish various mental processes that are represented by physical actions during training, which is why I am so particular about using the right terminology.

Before I lose anybody with this seemingly pedantic point, just bear with me for a while - I'll get to the exciting stuff soon enough!

How many guys out there use the terms 'attacker' and 'defender' during training? Most of you I'm guessing, or something very similar. As simple and innocuous this may be, you are conditioning yourselves to playing a role - one that won't work if you're the 'defender'!

The 'defender' waits for the 'attacker' to make his move - a strike or grab usually, whatever - and then leaps into action to save the day. Getting out of trouble is always more difficult than staying out of trouble, by conditioning yourself to 'wait' for an attack you are learning to be second - no matter how 'pre-emptive' you think that you are being, guess what? The attacker is the 'pre-emptive' guy in the room - not you!

If I can suggest a touch of mental 're-wiring' here - stop thinking about fighting like it's sparring! Remove the 'rules', stop referring to the enemy as an 'opponent', drop the 'start' position and get rid of the 'fighting stances'. Don't think of yourself as being the 'defender' - this is spelt v-i-c-t-i-m!

If I may be a little melodramatic, and use some positive visualisation, if you are in a highly charged confrontation, with no means of escape obvious or accessible, then don't do anything less than be fully prepared to attack all out - have your mental 'finger' on the 'trigger', have the 'gun' aimed and ready - don't leave it in the holster to try out your fabulous 'quick-draw'!

Pick up on the cues that tell you that the situation isn't getting any better - there will be more than you might realise, and situations rarely do get better once they go past a certain point. I've had the misfortune (actually some of it was quite profitable!) of witnessing, receiving and utilising virtually every form of violence possible - from hands to bullets, headbutts to hand-grenades, with every sharp/pointed/jagged/caustic object thrown in for good measure - and all I can say is that there are always indicators prior to combat.

Try to think more in terms of 'Anti-knife' than 'Counter-knife' or 'Knife-defence' etc. Imagine a timeline of events regarding a situation that involves facing a man armed with a knife. The longer the event plays out, the worse it is for the unarmed man - simple as that. Somewhere on that timeline the weapon is accessed - they really don't just appear in the hand - yet why is everything we see only concerned with this point on? Do you get my point? It always ends up as that scene from the above-mentioned musical! Think back to the 'loaded gun' thought process - the sooner you pull the trigger, and keep pulling the trigger, the better.

As for the actual mechanics of what to do physically - don't have different tactics for knives and weapons, just do what you would do anyway, do it first and keep doing it. Don't get obsessed with trying to stop the moving parts of a dangerous machine with your bare hands, turn the thing off at the mains instead - if you chase the knife, you're the one who will get caught!

While you are obsessed about not getting cut and stabbed, he is obsessed about how to cut and stab you - and he'll find you eventually. When you are obsessed about 'switching him off' with heavy repeated shots to the head and neck, guess what he's obsessed about now?

Classic 'counter-knife' drills with training weapons and marker-pens are always of the 'catch the knife' variety, and always yield 'but I got you there' comments - try using a pair of boxing gloves on the unarmed man and good heavy head protection (like a FIST/motorcycle helmet) on the knifeman instead. Start with a typical confrontation scenario, but the knifeman (bad guy - BG) should have the weapon hidden from view, and the unarmed man (good guy - GG) should be in some form of 'active' posture, lining the BG up for a basic hand shot, like a punch/palm heel or similar straight highline strike. Use footwork, introduce a dynamic element to the drill, maybe use verbalisation - whatever. Initially, the BG should just suddenly 'show' the knife at his side - this is the 'trigger' for the GG to immediately engage the head with two repeated shots, no hesitation, no grabbing for the weapon, just two instant applications of kinetic energy to the head of the BG.

Once this phase of the drill is up to speed, and focus is firmly on the attacks to the head and not the knife, as soon as it comes into view, then progress to the BG 'presenting' the knife to the front - again from out of sight. The GG should still engage the BG as soon as the knife is seen - not when it gets to the 'present' position, and should still focus only on attacking the head - not chasing the knife. If chasing the knife is posing a problem, just arm the BG with 2 knives - then it becomes impossible and you are forced to engage the head by necessity, problem solved!

The final phase of this drill, so long as everything is still instantaneous on sight of the weapon (or general sudden movement of the arm more like) is that the BG should actually attack with the knife, from out of sight initially. By now you should have noticed the BG getting more and more reluctant to actually 'show' the knife - depending on how hard he's getting hit, have the Aspirin handy - and as the shots make contact it is usual for him to be propelled backward and to forget about having a knife in the first place! The GG would in effect continue this attack until the BG was completely incapacitated - again, not obsessing about chasing the knife but turning the BG off at the mains as soon as possible. Simple straight shots to the head area are best for this purpose, and be generous with them!

I think that should do for now - hopefully I'll be over at some point in the near future to show you more.

Mick

Musashi

Nice post Mick!

I think what a lot of people are calling knife fighting is actually known as "Duelling". Both guys similarly armed, both knowing the other is armed, and agreeing to fight as if they were Jim Bowie.
I think the reality is more akin to "knife offense" where the knife guy uses his tool to take away any advantage his target might have. You don't stack the odds like that then tell the guy you've got a knife, you just give him the good news and by the time realisation dawns the damage is done.
Verbal distraction and deception puts the bad guy in range to launch a commited attack, while the intended victim is still trying to get his head around what's happening, I've brought this up before in a thread on the "OODA Cycle" and decision making process.If he has a knife in hand and concealed, once he's in range I couldn't stop him if I had a gun, I would not get time to decide and act before he's on me.
That's why keeping your eyes open and evaluating people is important, as is not letting strangers come too close before you verbally challenge them to stop and explain themselves.

Got to run, work time, nice thread though and some good points made!

Ger Healy

Mick Coup wrote:

Baggio,
Knife fighting? What's that? I saw a musical once called 'West Side Story' that had a bit of knife fighting in it - between the Jets and the Sharks -
Mick

Just for you Mick



BTW I like your post

TapouT

Mick Coup wrote:

I've had the misfortune (actually some of it was quite profitable!) of witnessing, receiving and utilising virtually every form of violence possible - from hands to bullets, headbutts to hand-grenades, with every sharp/pointed/jagged/caustic object thrown in for good measure - and all I can say is that there are always indicators prior to combat.

Seriously, you've fought with bullets and hand grenades?.

Let me guess, your from Limerick?.

Dragan

TapouT wrote:

Seriously, you've fought with bullets and hand grenades?.

Let me guess, your from Limerick?.

Nope, i believe he was in the army????

As for Limerick , it's really not as bad as people try and make out. It's normally local scumbags hitting local scumbags.

TapouT

Dragan wrote:

Nope, i believe he was in the army????

As for Limerick , it's really not as bad as people try and make out. It's normally local scumbags hitting local scumbags.

I'm kidding about Limerick of course, but I'm dead curious about the bullets and hand grenades!.

Maybe he lives in Blanchardstown!.

Mick Coup

TapouT,

I spent a while in the military, and have worked extensively in the private sector since - in all kinds of capacities. I'm taking a break from operational work at present, in order to concentrate more on teaching combatives and threat management - I'm currently establishing several training groups in the UK and running an instructor programme, once all that is in place I'm off to top up my tan and earn some money again!

Mick

TapouT

Mick Coup wrote:

TapouT,

I spent a while in the military, and have worked extensively in the private sector since - in all kinds of capacities. I'm taking a break from operational work at present, in order to concentrate more on teaching combatives and threat management - I'm currently establishing several training groups in the UK and running an instructor programme, once all that is in place I'm off to top up my tan and earn some money again!

Mick

Cool, thanks for the answer, I was just curious as I've twenty years service in the military myself and have been offered private security work oversea's on retirement (next year).

ShaneT

Mick Coup wrote:

Knife fighting? What's that? I saw a musical once called 'West Side Story' that had a bit of knife fighting in it - between the Jets and the Sharks - but for real, in all the years that I've been in harm's way, I'm struggling to recall incidents involving two men both with knives having a fight!

...
...
...

I think that should do for now - hopefully I'll be over at some point in the near future to show you more.

Mick

Outstanding post. Possibly the most useful thing I've seen posted since I started checking this board.

My compliments to the Chef.

-Shane.

Musashi

have been offered private security work oversea's

Sandline International type work? I hear the money can be very good, and that's what Kelly McCann is working at, not sure which consulting group he's with though?

Just have to ask Mick, if you don't mind, is knife assault that common in your experience or are people better off finding more realistic things to worry themselves about?

It's come up here a few times that a coronary is more likely to end you than a knifer. I guess people working doors or Police in bad areas stand a higher chance of encountering knife crime, but presumably are more aware of that risk so can head off trouble more readily? From what I've seen, having a knife pulled on you (working a door at least) is more often someone you've refused entry to at some point returning with a weapon to air his grievance.
I would doubt any Military trains knife "fighting" much, as a sustained feed of SS109 would settle that quickly.

So, are the only ones getting into blade encounters the ones who "obsess" on the possibility? It was suggested that RBSD and blade style MA'ists are the most likely to encounter this, in some sort of self fulfilling prophecy kind of way? Cheers for your input on the board, hope to see more of you online and eventually in Person.

C'mon Baggio, you know you want to host a Seminar mate!

Baggio...

Hey Musashi,

Myself and Mick did some blade work on Saturday (very nice weather in Cardiff to BTW). Again, Mick really “boiled it down”, makes so much more sense to me now. Originally I was too concerned with the knife and trying to “Mc Cann” it if you will as opposed to just attacking the guy brutally, knife or not. He showed me some very cool drills. Hopefully you will get a chance to see them soon yourself.

Me host a seminar... Not too sure about that:) , but here is something in the pipeline, over the next coming weeks, if all goes well;) .

Bagg.

Roper

Musashi wrote:

Sandline International type work? I hear the money can be very good, and that's what Kelly McCann is working at, not sure which consulting group he's with though?

Jesus man I think a little decorum is in order. Next you'll be asking him how much he'll be earning.

I've got a rant on here but before I do, I'll just say that each man makes his own choices as to what's best for him. Anyone working or considering working for one of these companies can do as they please, they're not the decision makers, but I don't know how someone can morally justify it to themselves.

Musashi,
Call a spade a spade and say mercenary. "Consulting group", "Private military contractors", mercenaries mercenaries mercenaries. Unaccountable, ungoverned, mercenaries. Sandline no longer exists in any case, I think they're rep was just unsalvagable after they helped bring down the government of Papa New Guinea, and broke an arms embargo in Sierra Leone. They also had remarkably coincidental links to mineral and mining companies, and by sheer coincidence, Papa New Guinea's conflict was over a mining problem:rolleyes: . Quite what they were doing in Sierra Leone (among other African nations) is beyond me, as everybody knows Africa isn't minerally rich:rolleyes: . They've ceased to operate but the good news is they've just set up in another name so you can hire them to crush the rebels in Waterford anytime, just don't expect them to hang around for the tribunals...

But still, they use guns and have cool gear...

Dragan

Roper wrote:

But still, they use guns and have cool gear...

I reckon i could have the lot of 'em, in John Woo, Matrix Bullet Time, death by lollipop stick to the jugular style if enough people ask me nicely!!!

Roper

And I think they're legitimised by people with hard-ons for the military.

Mick Coup

Musashi,

In my experience knife attacks are not as common as some people would lead you to believe - neither are any other kinds of attack for that matter!

I have to admit to being amused by the whole 'tactical lifestyle' approach that is quite prevalent amongst the 'combatives community' - I like the fact that most of them readily embrace the need to buy yet another 'tactical folding knife' or high output 'tactical flashlight' but seem to overlook doing a few pushups on occasion, or other basic physical preparation. I sometimes don't know how I manage to survive day to day, without having a 4-cell Maglite immediately to hand at all times, and I even sit with my back to the door in restaurants - I'm living on borrowed time obviously!

Perspective. There's a word. I've worked extensively in hostile environments where, quite literally, people have tried to kill me at least once every single day - by either direct or indirect means - therefore my routine is different there than it is in sunny Cardiff at the moment! I've also done a serious amount of security work in more 'civilised' locations, such as UK and Europe, and also faced serious attempts on my well-being, as well as times when I've been in social settings, so the 'threat' cannot be ignored - but taken into 'perspective'.

Regarding heart-attacks vs. knife attacks - absolutely true that they are a bigger risk, and yet people don't put as much effort into 'coronary-defence' as they do into 'knife-defence'! I work within the close-protection industry, and have done for a number of years, and can state quite categorically that the highest threat for any client - even heads of state - is going to be some form of medical emergency closely followed by a road traffic accident. Nothing sinister, no lone assasin - the odds for that are nothing near - but that is commonly held as the image associated with the role.

As I said above, the extremes must still be addressed - Murphy's Law of 'Anything that can go wrong will go wrong' has to be applied - but emphasis must be laid with the major issues.

Real attack formats must be addressed - something often overlooked in my observation of current training practices - as you are far more likely to encounter a 'big right hand' or to be blitzed with a combative version of the 'front crawl' than face a man in a stance (coincidentally the same as your own?) throwing a punch that looks like he practices your particular style!

My advice? Don't have any 'special' moves for knife attacks - have modified tactics for knife 'threats' (running is good, so long as you can run faster than him or you'll just wear yourself out and still have a knifeman to deal with!) but once it's a 'go' you must just focus on switching the man off. Real attacks using a knife look identical to unarmed attacks, so deal with them the same - you won't have a choice to be honest, you'll only realise a knife was involved afterwards in most cases.

I make the assumption that everyone I face in a confrontation has 2 things with him - a knife and 2 friends - so I factor this assumption into everything I choose to do. Not to be paranoid, or to contradict what I have said above, but to keep me from being complacent when engaging with potential or actual violence - this is what keeps me off the floor in a fight, and is what stops me grabbing hold of a person - unless I'm working in a security capacity - and is what keeps me hitting hard and often, and first.

Roper,

It would appear that you don't have a very high opinion of my chosen profession, and you don't seem to have an especially objective argument either.

If you are a pacifist or consciencious objector by nature then I wholeheartedly support your choices and points of view, but if you're not - and I suspect that this is the case - then you have a very limited view on issues of global conflict.

By definition I do work as a mercenary on occasion, and have always been fine about admitting this, what is wrong with that? Unaccountable? No, you should see the paperwork involved. Ungoverned? Absolutely not - sorry to spoil it for you mate, that's not the way it is. As for justifying it to myself - spare me, do you think that the deals that are done at the highest level, between governments using 'official' armies, are with pure noble intent?

If you only want to quote the horror stories - fine, but that's why I state that your argument is not objective. Some mercenary operations in the past have been undoubtedly wrong, but these are the ones that make the headlines - many have facilitated standing up to oppression and have allowed for good to be done when there has been no other way.

Moral standards can be highly subjective - after all, history is written by the victor is it not?

Mercenaries have been employed since the origins of warfare, and due to recent issues in the Middle East their utilisation is more accepted, needed, and regulated than ever before. This is how they are legitimised mate, by necessity.

Mick

Baggio...

Fair play Mick... Again people can always paint a picture of what they want to see by listening to some of the crap that goes around about private security.

Regarding your statement about knives I'd totally agree with you. It's not as likely as people would have you believe. More likely it going to be that drunken hay maker. Again I feel its no harm to train for the worst case scenario. Me being very paranoid:) .

1) You will be fighting under the worst possible conditions.
2) He's armed.
3) He's got compadres
4) And has Real intent to do you damage.

On the whole "tactical lifestyle" it's very overrated in my opinion to.
That said, I feel very safe nowadays. As I now carry a plastic - but deadly Bic Biro under my tie. A Razor sharp Key, a black tactical flash light. Oh... and I nearly forgot, and that 80's style "brick" mobile phone. Safe as houses now:D !

Cheers,

B.

Better watch out mugger or here comes "the Bic".

Mick Coup

As the 'experts' say mate, you can turn anything into a weapon.

I agree, pity it's usually a crap weapon that is worse than your bare hand! Sells books and DVDs though!

I wrote a whole load of stuff on the Geoff Thompson forum on this subject, a search under my name will dig out the posts, plus a load more, if anyone is interested.

Mick

Roper

Mick Coup wrote:

Roper,

It would appear that you don't have a very high opinion of my chosen profession, and you don't seem to have an especially objective argument either.

If you are a pacifist or consciencious objector by nature then I wholeheartedly support your choices and points of view, but if you're not - and I suspect that this is the case - then you have a very limited view on issues of global conflict.

By definition I do work as a mercenary on occasion, and have always been fine about admitting this, what is wrong with that? Unaccountable? No, you should see the paperwork involved. Ungoverned? Absolutely not - sorry to spoil it for you mate, that's not the way it is. As for justifying it to myself - spare me, do you think that the deals that are done at the highest level, between governments using 'official' armies, are with pure noble intent?

If you only want to quote the horror stories - fine, but that's why I state that your argument is not objective. Some mercenary operations in the past have been undoubtedly wrong, but these are the ones that make the headlines - many have facilitated standing up to oppression and have allowed for good to be done when there has been no other way.

Moral standards can be highly subjective - after all, history is written by the victor is it not?

Mercenaries have been employed since the origins of warfare, and due to recent issues in the Middle East their utilisation is more accepted, needed, and regulated than ever before. This is how they are legitimised mate, by necessity.

Mick

I just think its funny that when a man who is foreign to Iraq and has a beard and reads the Koran fights in the war, he's a terrorist. When another man foreign to Iraq firstly registers a company and then fights in the war he's a Private Military Contractor.

Your standards are yours Mick, and I wholeheartedly defend your right to do what you have to do to make a living. More power to you. As you say there are military contractors involved in UN programmes where no nation will intervene. There are also military contractors in Iraq being filmed shooting at passing motorists for fun. They are by their nature less accountable for their actions than the military services of a sovereign nation.

Mick, I'm not a pacifist or a conscientious objector, and yes I'm quite subjective when it comes to employees of corporations being given the right to enter another country for the purpose of military action. To my mind it's a very disturbing development. What you say about state armies is also true though, I accept that.

I don't agree with it Mick. I can't. But then again, I can't bring myself to agree with most military action of the modern age. (not that ye olden times were more noble!)

Cheers,
Barry

Mick Coup

Barry,

Private contractors don't fight in any war in Iraq, they protect innocent engineers and the like, who are involved in the reconstruction of the country, from getting abducted and having their heads cut off on TV - and I can certainly see a big difference in what I was doing over there and what the insurgents were doing.

Just to clarify the video footage that you mention - shooting at vehicles for fun? Not at all mate, anyone with experience in such a role, in the same theatre, will attest that it's a necessary part of the job. Without getting too tactical here, when travelling in 3-4 vehicle convoys the rear-vehicle gunner has a vital job of maintaining 6 o'clock integrity - some very naughty people over there like to fill a vehicle with artillery shells and gasoline, put a brainwashed person behind the wheel and direct them to get amongst such a convoy and detonate - in the hope that they will BBQ all involved, therefore adding to the instablity of the country, so that they can keep doing it.

That rear gunner is the guy who will wave back fast-approaching vehicles, or others that are getting too close - granted not all are suicide bombers, but some are, and some are testing the responses of particular teams in order to select future targets.

In Iraq, the escort teams are obvious and the Iraqi citizens know to give them a wide berth - those that don't are warned, using dayglow signage, hand signals, flares, warning shots and finally the vehicle is engaged to immobilise the engine - in that order. It is a common occurence - hard to comprehend sat in a cosy house in the UK - but the only mistake that video shows is that it was filmed at all, and broadcast online set to music, I agree that it was highly unprofessional and the company involved took serious action against the parties responsible.

Countries like Iraq are very dangerous, and highly unstable, but wasn't every country at some stage? It will definately take a long time to resolve, and will more than likely get worse before it gets better - and yes, various countries will make a lot of money from the process, but don't forget that the Iraqi people will get something out of it too.

But enough of the politics I reckon, wasn't all this about knives or something to start with?

Mick

Roper

Yes, it's a topic for another day Mick. I disagree with some of your points above but then I'm sure you know that. Glad we could keep it civil though;).
There's a topic on the politics board for this very purpose.