Obnoxious Players

MrPillowTalk

Brief rundown:

In Drogheda on Sunday and I was seated at a table with a couple of locals (I assume) and I have to say some of the table talk was quite obnoxious. There was one player who was playing live for the first time after some online experience he was a complete newbie and to be honest was playing dreadfully but got lucky in a few pots, one or two against me. At the beginning of the game he put in a string bet and a couple of the players leaped on him as if he just assaulted their mothers, I have no problem with the rules being enforced however there is a way to do things and seeing as everyone knew he was playing live for the first time explaining the rules nicely would have been afar better approach. Anyway after he put a bad beat on me (to which my only response was nice hand) a couple of the locals started ribbing him asking how can he make a call like that? etc. I told them it was cool as I still had plenty of chips but for the next hour or so snide comments about this guy were being passed off as jokes everytime he played a pot.

I didnt say much to these guys at the time basically because I was getting some great information in to how these guys played from their talk. The new guy got knocked out in due course and I am pretty sure he is never going to play live poker again, which is a shame because he was terrible. Thinking about it afterwards I felt I really should have stood up for this guy as allthough I was not participating in ribbing him I was probably an acomplice through my silence.

I am no saint dont get me wrong I complain about bad beats and bad play but I never do it to someone at the table ie if I got knocked out of a tourney on a beat I might turn around to a freind afterwards and say "did you see what that donkey had etc etc". And I will often rib someones play if they are ribbing others at the table.

I know people say that it is watching poker on tv that gives the impression that its ok to be an arsehole to newish players however I see this all the time online in fairly bigbuyin cash games from "professional" players, I often see players who make a ton of money out of bad play from worse players ridiculing these same bad players for doing exactly what is paying their wages! This isnt just from faceless players Ive seen well known pros who will remain nameless rubbing down worse players which to be honest shows a complete lack of class in my eyes.

So my question is this: How do you deal with obnoxious players? Do you say nothing and get on with it or would you have spoken up for the newbie?

I really do feel it is a problem which will inevitably restrict the flow of dead money into the game.

5starpool

I had a similiar experience at the CityWest last month. One well known player (won't name) was involved in a hand when I moved to the table and he went on to win the hand. He then talked nonstop for nearly 10 minutes about how he outplayed the other guy and why the other guy played it wrong.

The other guy is a player I have played with several times and one I know to be a terrible player. I talked to him the next week in the Fitz and he was saying how he felt ready to punch the 'advice giver'.

No one else contributed to the conversation at all either, but like you did above, if I do not know either of the parties involved I will usually stay schtum.

Edit: I think your humanity really shines through when you are saying that you only feel bad because he is a terrible player who won't play again, not because you felt bad for the abuse he was getting.

El Stuntman

Excellent post, Mr PillowTalk.

Was discussing this earlier with Smurph under the transgender thread (don't ask!) and we came to the conclusion that this was a societal issue. It's getting rougher out there - look at 9 y/o kids screaming abuse at soccer refs a la Keano, young fellas refusing to give their seat up on the DART to grannies, getting shouldered off the pavement by commuters, v-signs being flashed from every second car etc etc. It's not just pokah where bad manners rule the roost...

The best thing you can do is smile at these idiots and gently relieve them of their cash - bear in mind anyone who points to a fish that he is fishy is almost certainly a fish themselves! Unfortunately the player in your example will just have to look after himself - it's sink or swim in this training pool.

smurph

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Brief rundown:

In Drogheda on Sunday and I was seated at a table with a couple of locals (I assume) and I have to say some of the table talk was quite obnoxious. There was one player who was playing live for the first time after some online experience he was a complete newbie and to be honest was playing dreadfully but got lucky in a few pots, one or two against me. At the beginning of the game he put in a string bet and a couple of the players leaped on him as if he just assaulted their mothers, I have no problem with the rules being enforced however there is a way to do things and seeing as everyone knew he was playing live for the first time explaining the rules nicely would have been afar better approach. Anyway after he put a bad beat on me (to which my only response was nice hand) a couple of the locals started ribbing him asking how can he make a call like that? etc. I told them it was cool as I still had plenty of chips but for the next hour or so snide comments about this guy were being passed off as jokes everytime he played a pot.

I didnt say much to these guys at the time basically because I was getting some great information in to how these guys played from their talk. The new guy got knocked out in due course and I am pretty sure he is never going to play live poker again, which is a shame because he was terrible. Thinking about it afterwards I felt I really should have stood up for this guy as allthough I was not participating in ribbing him I was probably an acomplice through my silence.

I am no saint dont get me wrong I complain about bad beats and bad play but I never do it to someone at the table ie if I got knocked out of a tourney on a beat I might turn around to a freind afterwards and say "did you see what that donkey had etc etc". And I will often rib someones play if they are ribbing others at the table.

I know people say that it is watching poker on tv that gives the impression that its ok to be an arsehole to newish players however I see this all the time online in fairly bigbuyin cash games from "professional" players, I often see players who make a ton of money out of bad play from worse players ridiculing these same bad players for doing exactly what is paying their wages! This isnt just from faceless players Ive seen well known pros who will remain nameless rubbing down worse players which to be honest shows a complete lack of class in my eyes.

So my question is this: How do you deal with obnoxious players? Do you say nothing and get on with it or would you have spoken up for the newbie?

I really do feel it is a problem which will inevitably restrict the flow of dead money into the game.

Hi Mr. Pillowtalk,
Good to meet you, I was sitting beside you on Sunday at the first Table. Not sure if That is the table you were talking about. There was a young player who did a bit of string betting, and was called up on it. I felt that the dealer should have said it to him, but the dealer didn't seem to know what the story was. Also twice an older player, who seemed quite inexperienced didn't double an initial bet, and the dealer didn't say anything, I had to say it. The crowd at the First table we were at all knew each others play inside out and play in cards 2 - 3 times a week together I would say. The first time I went down there I found it a little bit strange. Im used to the Fitzwilliam where maybe the dealers are a bit more experienced, so the enforce the rules and explain to a new player exactly what is going on. The dealers in Drogheda and all good dealers, but maybe need to explain to new players about doubling the initial bets etc., etc.,

Playing in the Fitzwilliam €270 game and there was a player at my table, actually he got moved with me to every table and I know he finised somewhere in the top 5. He was still in when I got knocked out in 6th. I thought he had very bad manners, young guy with baseball cap (big baseball cap). someone asked him how much chips he had and he replied "More than you". He pushed a korean guy off a big enough pot with a big bet, and then after he took in the chips he asked the guy "What did you have". The Korean guy says "I had a pair, what did you have" to which he replied, None of the board..... which I absolutely did not believe. Now maybe i was wrecked tired and you would probably have had to be at his table, but I certainly found him rude, when there was absolutely no need to be.

If you beat someone in a pot, take in the money and be happy enough with that. More and more now, people are making smart comments, and being morans.

MrPillowTalk

Was good to meet you too smurph.

That was the table I was talking about, and it was the group who knew each other that I felt were a bit obnoxious, there was a bit of an undertone at the table as a result for a while. A prime example you might remember, I move all in a couple of hands after losing a race, the older guy calls and shows QJ to which I am overjoyed as my A6 is ahead, I didnt say anything disparraging and neither did you but we were both thinking how can he call that? but then a couple of the others start asking why he called, laughing etc and he goes bright red.

If you pay your entry to a tournament its your choice how and when you put your chips in, thats my view anyway.

Did you make the money in the end?

AmarilloFats

I rarely play live. When I do these rude "deluded experts" seem to be ubiquitous. Bring a newbie friend into a casino and watch how he is torn apart by tossers who think they know how to play because AK = good, K2 = bad.

smurph

Yeah came 16th €350, was shortstacked for most of the last hour, so it was sh*t or bust. At the first table, there was a couple of comments like "I hope you keep playing like that" and God I hope i get cards against you. A couple of times the guy was missed out on the betting sequence aswell. I do think however that he knew alot more than he let on. He took a pot off the Northern guy to his left and gave a little wink to me, so I think he was a better player than he was letting on. It is a good tournament and like any other one has a massive range of players. The young guy for instance who was doing a string betting, gave me most of his stack with a pair of 10's, when I re-raised him, and raised him and every turn of the cards, with my pocket Aces. His mate came over to him and asked him how he was getting on, and he said he had a bad beat with his pocket 10's. I think though that the tournament is well run and managed, and there were some serious poker players there, Ivan Donaghy, Kevin Fitzpatrick, Paul "The Hangman" Roper, Paul Leckey, and of course "Junior" to mention but a few. Great value for money with the starting stack and the length of time you get each level.

AmarilloFats

Hi Mr PT, Smurph,
I introduced 2 friends to the fitz recently. The €20 rebuy was the game. An elderly gent(and he was a gent) softly spoken, and looking a little down on his luck was playing. He bought in maybe 5times. He was bad, or should I say his choice of play was not optimum if winning was his concern..
But two players were discussing his play, and refering to him as an idiot, in earshot!! Bad form, bad manners..babd badandandljad kants.

CodeMonkey

I know there really are a lot of obnoxious and rude players out there but I wonder if it's not a valid or good strategy to intimidate your opponents so they're easier to bluff and push around or to get them to not think straight and make mistakes.

riddik

sure the worst i ever saw was in the fitz at a free roll a few months ago, some guy kept puttin his hands down his trousers n fiddlin around with himself, then would start rubbing the chips. i was two seats away from him n i could only see it after some guy left, but i dont think ne1 else cold see. i went all in wit 2,6 just to get the hell out of there

5starpool

AmarilloFats wrote:

Hi Mr PT, Smurph,
I introduced 2 friends to the fitz recently. The €20 rebuy was the game. An elderly gent(and he was a gent) softly spoken, and looking a little down on his luck was playing. He bought in maybe 5times. He was bad, or should I say his choice of play was not optimum if winning was his concern..
But two players were discussing his play, and refering to him as an idiot, in earshot!! Bad form, bad manners..babd badandandljad kants.

I know who that guy is, very polite. Always says excuse me, thank you, etc.

He is a terrible player though and I have played with him in the Fitz several times. I think it is a disgrace if anyone is doing this. I will sometimes exchange a smile or shake of the head about another player, but not if there is any way they will be aware of it.

The only time I insult someone at the table is when it is one specific person, maybe 2. And they deserve it, and are not beginners, but idiots.

riddik

haha i hope u dont mean the cock rubber!

ecksor

It is an odd phenomenon I think, but one thing I've noticed is that although I see a lot of bad plays and a lot of people make awful calls and give out bad beats I've strangely noticed that I'm making a few of those awful calls and giving a few bad beats myself so there's no point in throwing stones in the glass house ...

I'm sure plenty of people aren't that bothered about correct play, they might just want a social alternative to having a few pints or whatever and the money they put down to play with is part of their entertainment budget. That doesn't make them an idiot. I wonder if the same people who make such remarks at the poker table sit behind blackjack players and give them grief for sub-optimal play there.

Mind you, one pet peeve I have although I rarely see it, are the guys who come along and play badly, suck out terribly on someone and then get all smug about it as if they outplayed the other guy. They rarely last very long though so not a huge problem and I just keep my mouth shut.

5starpool

riddik wrote:

haha i hope u dont mean the cock rubber!

I inserted the post I was replying to, as context can be a terrible thing

Culchie

CodeMonkey wrote:

I know there really are a lot of obnoxious and rude players out there but I wonder if it's not a valid or good strategy to intimidate your opponents so they're easier to bluff and push around or to get them to not think straight and make mistakes.

That's making excuses.

If people want to show agression, then they should use their cards to speak, there's no need for obnoxious people at a table.

There's some good examples out there of players who take their beats well though, and they get my utmost respect, the likes of IonaPaul and Rounders123 come to mind.

ianmc38

There's nothing I find more annoying than people commenting on how bad someones play is, what they should have done, why their check, raise or fold was incorrect. it really grinds my gears.

Play your own game.

Playing a game the other night, a shy enough guy called a big mouths all-in preflop with 77. Big mouth had AQ and then started abusing him, asking how he can make the call with 77. The guy with AQ actually thought he was ahead! To make things worse he said, its ok to do it in a tournament but not on a cash table.

I felt sorry for the quiet guy so I butted in and explained why calling was right.

Every table I'm at seems to have at least one professional coach at it who insists on giving a running commentary on every hand.

The C Kid

I don't have a problem with this kind of talk at a table.

It is very helpful. When you get a person tapping the glass and dishing out advice, most of which is normally wrong, I just mark them down as a donkey. They normally play weak-passive, have a very small raising range, and just because they have read Hellmuth on Hold'em think they are the next Phil Ivey.

I love these guys.

Bp!

Hammer Boy on PPP , Jeeesh that guy is obnoxious ! Followed me from table to table yesterday eveing for about 3 hours callin me everything under the sun cause i beat him heads up in a $50 STT by callin his minraise with 10 5 catchin 2 pair by the turn and callin his check raise all in and filled up on river

Every table he kept typing "This FISH called me with 10 5 heads up..my A K should have won..take this fishes money"

or any time i didnt play a hand "Waiting for 10 5 BP? FISH...."

It was funny at first but after the 3 hour i had to get in contact with the Manager...the guy has issues!

I had even made myself private but he went through every table till he found me :rolleyes:

careca

Scandinavian player in the fitz cash game on Sat night. He was doing really well and showed a few good bluffs but had to comment on every hand and I mean every one, regardless of whether he was involved. He caught me bluffing and must have told me why he called about ten times. Then he insulted one of the waitresses who was only picking up his coat. This really pissed me off and I told him so. There was then some talking about a pot which was still in play (players all in) and he gave out **** to me and others about it (rightly so). I apologised for talking during a hand and he then started to give it loads again. I swiftly said "how many fcuking times do you want me to apologise" and he shut up fairly quick. About five hands later I had the nuts and knew he would call my bet (150) which he did. He kept telling me why he had to call and I just kept saying "ah ya, I would have called that too".

One small thing though (about Smurphs post) I hate it when players ask, how much have you got left. Surely thats the reason you put the large chips out front for all to see. And if I'm not mistaken you are under no obligation to count them out. Sammy Farha was asked that in the WSOP and he replied "about 150 thousand" when in fact he only had about 10K. Class.

Iceman78

I have to say that i do like a bit of table talk as it makes the game more fun in my opinion. Not a big fan of these obnoxious players though but they usually get found out eventually.

I find it worse when some mates are at the same table and one gets a bad beat off some quiet fella or a newbie and they start taking the piss. This is a joke and gets on my nerves big time. Usually i just say nothing and wait for a chance later in the game to take these mouths out. I am well able to take the abuse and actually enjoy laughing at these fools when i take them out if they have been abusing people earlier in the game. I have been known to make some smart comments at them too and i know it aint right but feel they deserve it for how they treated players earlier in the night.

Too much watching people like Mike the mouth and Phil Hellmuth on tv is bringing these fools into the game!!

5starpool

careca wrote:

One small thing though (about Smurphs post) I hate it when players ask, how much have you got left. Surely thats the reason you put the large chips out front for all to see. And if I'm not mistaken you are under no obligation to count them out. Sammy Farha was asked that in the WSOP and he replied "about 150 thousand" when in fact he only had about 10K. Class.

Some people ask this when it is obvious they are covered, or have the other player covered. Mostly though, I see it used when players arms are covering their chips, or when big chips are not at the front, which they should be.

There is nothing wrong with asking to know how much someone has behind. Personally though I never do unless I cannot see their chips and are calling their raise or about to raise when they have limped etc.

Usually though I can count stacks fairly accurately, which is a talent an astounding number of players seem to lack. Never mind how long it can take some players or dealers even to count chips once bet.

eggie

If someone catches a draw against ya from playing badly the best thing, imo, is to say well played and be quiet, after all the more it happens the more you will win in the long run.

The guys that starting mouthing off want people to make bad decisions and lose all the time, if they make a bad decision and win their egos cant handle it. I would normally side with a newbie and take time to explain the rules, after all everyone begins from the same point and manners cost very little.

I would make a subtle comment to remind the guys mouthing off that if they were experts they wouldnt be playing these stakes with newbies, stick to making their own decisions and not worry about averyone elses decisions aswell. Sure, if we all played the same way, there would be no point in playing the game in the first place.

handsfree

i really find some of the merrion regulars obnoxious. i mean they love giving advice,most of which was wrong, and when i called one guy in particular up on it he called me an idiot and told me how long he was playing poker for. i ended up just piting him because its all he does and he'll never succeed in it.

another lad in a tournie started going mad at me because i wouldn't call a shortstack all in when i was chip leader in the tournie. he then started slagging saying i needed AK to play. though i worked in my favour because he would never call my bluffs:D

Iceman78

One major problem that i have is when people start to give out or moan about a new player at their table especially when the whole table knows the player is a newbie. I want them at my table every time and am always courteous to them as they will usually throw their chips at you eventually. As well as that, you can usually see very easily when they have a big hand just from looking at how quickly they play their hand.

I always try to help them and be friendly towards them as you want them to think that you would not bully them either so that you know you will get bluffs through them later in the game.

5starpool

smurph wrote:

Hi Mr. Pillowtalk,
Playing in the Fitzwilliam €270 game and there was a player at my table, actually he got moved with me to every table and I know he finised somewhere in the top 5. He was still in when I got knocked out in 6th. I thought he had very bad manners, young guy with baseball cap (big baseball cap).

Was the baseball cap yellow?

ionapaul

The worst for me, as someone mentioned earlier, are those that suck out on you and then sit there with a shít-eating grin like they outplayed you. I go to the other extreme, I usually feel guilty when I dog someone like that!

It can be very hard to take beats well sometimes, we all get upset and fire off our mouths once in a while, but I think it is worth the effort to keep your cool and be mannerly and respectful. I'd rather go through life as a moderately successful person with class than a 'winner' with a bad attitude.

smurph

careca wrote:

One small thing though (about Smurphs post) I hate it when players ask, how much have you got left. Surely thats the reason you put the large chips out front for all to see. And if I'm not mistaken you are under no obligation to count them out. Sammy Farha was asked that in the WSOP and he replied "about 150 thousand" when in fact he only had about 10K. Class.

He was asked how much he had because the way the hand was being played the Guy wanted to know if he called, how much more it would be if the Baseball guy goes all in. You can ask anyone how much money they have. Sometimes the colours are not that distinguisable. I don't mind people asking at all. Sometimes if im at seat 9 at a table, or seat 1 I can't see everyones stack, (joys of being 5ft) so I have to ask people quite a bit. I generally keep a not of exactly how much chips I have, so if someone asks me I just say it quickly instead of having to count it out, (those shaky hands are an awful tell LOL)

smurph

5starpool wrote:

Was the baseball cap yellow?

Yeah and a little fluffy goatie

5starpool

I know him. Pure trash talker.

When I say I know him, I mean I have played with him several times and tangled with him, not in a vicious verbal way though, just in play terms.

ollyk1

smurph wrote:

He was asked how much he had because the way the hand was being played the Guy wanted to know if he called, how much more it would be if the Baseball guy goes all in. You can ask anyone how much money they have. Sometimes the colours are not that distinguisable. I don't mind people asking at all. Sometimes if im at seat 9 at a table, or seat 1 I can't see everyones stack, (joys of being 5ft) so I have to ask people quite a bit. I generally keep a not of exactly how much chips I have, so if someone asks me I just say it quickly instead of having to count it out, (those shaky hands are an awful tell LOL)

You aren't entitled to a count from the player. You can ask the dealer how many chips the player has.

You are entitled to see all the chips someone has, and if they are blocking your view you can ask to see their stack. If I know you and I know that its a genuine request for the chip stack I'll tell you approximately how many chips I have. If I don't know you or I think you are looking for info I'll have my chips visible and let you count them yourself. I can estimate a chip stack + or - 200 at a glance. How hard is it?

smurph

ollyk1 wrote:

You aren't entitled to a count from the player. You can ask the dealer how many chips the player has.

You are entitled to see all the chips someone has, and if they are blocking your view you can ask to see their stack. If I know you and I know that its a genuine request for the chip stack I'll tell you approximately how many chips I have. If I don't know you or I think you are looking for info I'll have my chips visible and let you count them yourself. I can estimate a chip stack + or - 200 at a glance. How hard is it?

Sorry I thought you could ask the player direct, my mistake.

connie147

I own and run the Cue Club Card Rooms in Killarney and this bad mouthing of poor plays is the single biggest pet hate I have.Im constantly telling the regulars that berating players on what they see as bad plays is non productive in many ways.Personally,I think any player who pays to enter a tourney(or cash game) is fully entitled to play whatever way they like.Werent we all newbies onvce upon a time(maybe some people will say Im still a newbie).Ive noticed that a lot of players who come into the club for the first time do not return.We go out of our way to make them feel welcome and if we know they are first timers,we explain basics like string betting and doubling previous bets etc.etc.Ive actually met some players in town who have stopped coming in and generally their reasons are much the same i.e.-we're not good enough to play in the card club and some who even admit that they didnt return because they felt unwelcome at the tables.My buisiness depends on a constant flow of new players so stamping out on this
"abuse" is my goal.This is a worldwide popular game we play and its in all our interest to encourage new players to participate.

p.s.--sorry for ranting on

TrueDub

ionapaul wrote:

I'd rather go through life as a moderately successful person with class than a 'winner' with a bad attitude.

Amen.

DeVore

No I think the technical rule is that you ask the dealer and the dealer counts the players chips. Similarly you are supposed to give a chip to the dealer and ask for change, not take it from your mate to your right
In both cases we all know it doesnt work like that but if you want to force an issue (and I like nothing BETTER then to call rules on obnoxious gits) then you can do that.

As regards the narky feckers, I like to get right in their faces if they are being obnoxious. There are a few old timers who get annoyed when they game isnt played there way too... they can be just as bad as the young guys. I just like an argument sometimes too (particularly if they are quoting chapter and verse regarding odds etc... some of which can be VERY odd...).

DeV.

bill_ashmount

ionapaul wrote:

I'd rather go through life as a moderately successful person with class than a 'winner' with a bad attitude.

I like that, think i'll make that my new motto......:)

Samba

I say nothing, smile and think about my game, there is one young guy who many of the dealers in the Fitz are friendly with, this guy thinks he is table captain, fact is, he is downright rude, obnoxious, loud mouthed and insulting and testament to his own insecurities.

He was openly insulting supposed "friends" including the dealer..... I just can't believe the dealer was laughing at the joke, i could see past his smile and see a small grimace.....

There are jokes and then there are jokes that no matter how much you say it's only a joke, that **** gets to people no matter how thick your skin is, I won't even repeat some of the tripe he was coming out with.

I say nothing, do nothing, just taking his chips or watching him piss them down the tube is enough for me.

5starpool

Samba wrote:

I say nothing, smile and think about my game, there is one young guy who many of the dealers in the Fitz are friendly with, this guy thinks he is table captain, fact is, he is downright rude, obnoxious, loud mouthed and insulting and testament to his own insecurities.

He was openly insulting supposed "friends" including the dealer..... I just can't believe the dealer was laughing at the joke, i could see past his smile and see a small grimace.....

There are jokes and then there are jokes that no matter how much you say it's only a joke, that **** gets to people no matter how thick your skin is, I won't even repeat some of the tripe he was coming out with.

I say nothing, do nothing, just taking his chips or watching him piss them down the tube is enough for me.

I didn't mean anything by it

The Ace Face

Bp! wrote:

Hammer Boy on PPP , Jeeesh that guy is obnoxious ! Followed me from table to table yesterday eveing for about 3 hours callin me everything under the sun cause i beat him heads up in a $50 STT by callin his minraise with 10 5 catchin 2 pair by the turn and callin his check raise all in and filled up on river


Funny if he it wasn't so weird....whats it like to have an online stalker?

Samba

Is that a guilty conscious you have 5star?

Anyway this was on Sat. Night and I don't believe you were at the table......

5starpool

Certainly not. Me no play Hold'Em cash games. And I was getting drunk in the middle of nowhere also.

Thought I would volunteer to accept blame anyhow.......