Next move.....

shaydy

Deep into a large

Blinds have just hit 600/1200 and you have roughly 20k.

You are dealt 78d seated 2 right of the button. So here I made a semi bluff at the blinds and raised it up to 3500, all fold to the BB who thinks for a while and calls......hhhhmmm. Flop comes down 3410 all diamonds:eek: !!

whats your next move??

Shay

edit to add BB has around 2k more than me

Bp!

100% push

Any time Blinds are a good percentage of a players stack leaves no room for messing about. "Trapping" is out of the question as the hand is so vunerable and you were lucky to hit the flop so hard.

If you can pick up the $7,600 in the middle uncontested all the better

smurph

Well you had a bluff, got a dream flop, All in and pray

ianmc38

Push every time.

5starpool

Do you really want to 'trap' and see the 2d come up?

Get your hands behind those chips and heave. I presume you wouldn't lay this down if he went all if you checked, and your hand is far from outdrawable. If you are unlucky enough to be behind already then nothing you can do, if he outdraws you and you gave him the odds to then that isn't clever.

Put your chips in and either gratefully increase your stack by 4100 (by winning the 7600) or make him make the wrong move when he isn't getting the odds to.

careca

I think the question is do you want him to call with a draw. If he has an overpair which includes a diamond or Adx, do you want him to call or are you happy to take it now. If you push he could fold a draw, but if you bet the pot or close to it he might put you on a steal and call when hes drawing dead.

I would probably bet the pot here and hope he comes along. If he reraises then they go in and so be it.

ianmc38

careca wrote:

I think the question is do you want him to call with a draw. If he has an overpair which includes a diamond or Adx, do you want him to call or are you happy to take it now. If you push he could fold a draw, but if you bet the pot or close to it he might put you on a steal and call when hes drawing dead.

I would probably bet the pot here and hope he comes along. If he reraises then they go in and so be it.

I don't think anyone would fold Aces with the Ad here.

fuzzbox

Pot is 7k or so, and you have 17k of so left.

Bet 3500/4000 on the flop and hope he calls/raises.
No need to drive him off with a push here.
But I bet something 100% of the time.

careca

ianmc38 wrote:

I don't think anyone would fold Aces with the Ad here.

I didnt say Aces.

5starpool

ianmc38 wrote:

I don't think anyone would fold Aces with the Ad here.

No, but if he knew what he was facing he should. Moot point though really since he doesn't. I would still hate this spot with a push before me, even with the Ad in my hand.

fuzzbox

Why does everybody want to shovel 17k into a 7k flop when we have a made flush?

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I don't think anyone would fold Aces with the Ad here.

But they might fold AdKx

Or JdTs
Or QdQc
Or ..... etc

Why do we want him to fold?

careca

careca wrote:

I. If you push he could fold a draw, but if you bet the pot or close to it he might put you on a steal and call when hes drawing dead.

.

Not everyone

Culchie

last live game I had exactly same scenario on the bubble, with K9 sooted.

Sigh:(

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

But they might fold AdKx

Or JdTs
Or QdQc
Or ..... etc

Why do we want him to fold?

A push here looks alot like a steal though a continuation bet looks good as well.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

A push here looks alot like a steal.

Unfortunately, the "steal" will work, an awful lot of the time.

Why not see if villain wants to "re-steal".

delanec8

He is first to act so it depends on what he does and what you know of him. If he is someone who would bet a set or two pair or the Ad on that flop and he checks to you then i would bet about 2/3 of the pot because he may be close to drawing dead but may come along with an overpair without a diamond.

If he bets into you shove them in and hope youre not drawing dead.

Bp!

careca wrote:

I think the question is do you want him to call with a draw. If he has an overpair which includes a diamond or Adx, do you want him to call or are you happy to take it now. If you push he could fold a draw, but if you bet the pot or close to it he might put you on a steal and call when hes drawing dead.

I would probably bet the pot here and hope he comes along. If he reraises then they go in and so be it.

At this late stage of a tournament, Im happy to take the pot here, we were lucky to hit that flop so good considering we were just trying to steal the blinds, the extra 3.5 BB's we now have is a great result.

The only time i would want a caller chasing another Diamond is if we are under the averge stack

Bp!

fuzzbox wrote:

Why does everybody want to shovel 17k into a 7k flop when we have a made flush?

Fuzz IMO the only reason i suggest playin it so hard (defensively) is becasue its the late stage of a tournament, I would not suggest playing it this way in a cash game or even the early stages of a MTT, however nearing the end, every BB is important for so many reaons, (surving, fold equity etc).

It is so frustrating, playin for 3 hours in a MTT and going bust with 2 tables left thinkin "Why did i try get so crafty, and not just pick up the pot when i was ahead"

Also as Ianmc states the All in does look like a steal and 9/10 times the bare Ad will call you but this way at least you played it right and if your outdrawn well so be it.

At this stage of the tourney ill feel lucky the BB let me see the flop and lucky i hit it so hard, im sure when the BB clicked call pre flop the OP wasnt too happy

shaydy

careca wrote:

I think the question is do you want him to call with a draw. If he has an overpair which includes a diamond or Adx, do you want him to call or are you happy to take it now. If you push he could fold a draw, but if you bet the pot or close to it he might put you on a steal and call when hes drawing dead.

I would probably bet the pot here and hope he comes along. If he reraises then they go in and so be it.

fuzzbox wrote:

Pot is 7k or so, and you have 17k of so left.

Bet 3500/4000 on the flop and hope he calls/raises.
No need to drive him off with a push here.
But I bet something 100% of the time.

Ok, so I pushed here to take it there and then and he almost timed out before calling with Adx and hit the 4th diamond on the turn to knock me out. Afterwards I wasnt sure if a 5-7k bet would have been better for me to get off the hand after the turn if he called. I felt he would have come over the top of me here if I bet the pot so that leaned me over to the push.

Tricky spot but I felt there is good arguments for both actions.

On the other side if you were in his postition would you have called allin here.........I think most people fold a draw like this to an all in raise in front of them here right??

Shay

califano

Bp! wrote:

At this stage of the tourney ill feel lucky the BB let me see the flop.

He raised the bb.

shaydy

Bp! wrote:

9/10 times the bare Ad will call you

Personally I dont think id risk all my chips in his position on a diamond draw with a stack of 17k here. I'd be surprised if 9 out of 10 people would also in this scenario, maybe im wrong:rolleyes:

breadmonkey

You got it all in while you were ahead. Can't do much more than that. You were just unfortunate to be outdrawn this time. Surely you'd be happy go up against his draw every time as 70% to win?

Bp!

shaydy wrote:

Bp! wrote:

9/10 times the bare Ad will call you

Personally I dont think id risk all my chips in his position on a diamond draw with a stack of 17k here. I'd be surprised if 9 out of 10 people would also in this scenario, maybe im wrong:rolleyes:

Ive seen it so many times towards the end of a tournament, people feel they need to take these gambles to win the tournaments that they will take the shot, im not surprised at the call, the stacks arent that deep as well.

Im more surpised that he just smooth called your preflop raise and I wold have expected push or fold to be taken place here (is what i meant he allowed OP to see flop).

shaydy

breadmonkey wrote:

You got it all in while you were ahead. Can't do much more than that. You were just unfortunate to be outdrawn this time. Surely you'd be happy go up against his draw every time?

im not unhappy with my play here, I just thought it was an interesting hand and wondered how people would have treated it.

Ste05

I agree with Fuzzbox here TBH, I don't like the push here at all. I'd make it maybe 5-7k, if he wants to push let him, I'll call. The range of hands that will push into a raise is alot wider than the hands that will Call an All-In, therefore IMO a raise is a much better play than a push. There are more hands that will go All-In on the flop. More hands = weaker hands = +EV (don't want to do the maths)

As it played out, basically the only hands that are calling are ones containing the Ad (possibly the Kd) and a slim chance of a set or a made flush.

As for the suggestion that a push will look more like a steal than a raise would. It makes no odds what it looks like, if he has a hand he can call with he'll call. He's not going to call for basically all his chips hoping you were at it???

The C Kid

I agree with Ste and Fuzz, in fact I'd go so far as to say that pushing is beyond horrible here.

At this stage of the tournament I don't want to play defensively, I want to double up. You should have no interest of limping into the cash, you want a stack that will allow you to challenge for first place.

You have flopped a huge hand, why on earth would you want to move a massive 16k into a 7.5k pot is beyond me. Leading for 4000-5000 is perfect and pray he goes over the top. I'm more than happy for him to move in with the bare ace. If he just calls and the fourth diamond falls on the turn you have the added bonus of perhaps being able to get away from the hand with a somewhat playable stack. In this case it makes no difference as he's moving in on the flop anyway I'd imagine.

Its at this stage of the tournament where people are beginning to think defensively like some of the responses on this thread, where you can accumulate the most chips.

One quote I like from Amir Vahedi in this kind of situation is, "in order to live you have to be willing to die".

shaydy

Ste05 wrote:

I'd make it maybe 5-7k, if he wants to push let him, I'll call.

The C Kid wrote:

I agree with Ste and Fuzz, in fact I'd go so far as to say that pushing is beyond horrible here.

Leading for 4000-5000 is perfect and pray he goes over the top. I'm more than happy for him to move in with the bare ace. If he just calls and the fourth diamond falls on the turn you have the added bonus of perhaps being able to get away from the hand with a somewhat playable stack. In this case it makes no difference as he's moving in on the flop anyway I'd imagine.

I dont agree that its that horrible a play. You both state you are willing to get all your chips in the middle with this hand by betting out and calling his allin, as you will agree im sure thats what he is more than likley going to do on a post flop bet of 4 or 5k, any bet higher than this and im almost pot committed so why not push. Even though I have flopped a flush its still a dangerous board to me and I dont want to blow half my stack by giving him a free card here.

So here's two questions to both of you;

1. Whats your move if he calls your post flop 5k bet when the 4th diamond hits? check? What do you do if he goes allin? He now has control here.

2. If you were the BB, would you call all in, in his spot for all your chips on a diamond draw here?

Shay

The C Kid

I think you missed my point, when this flop comes down you should have only one thought in your head.

How can I get all mine and all my opponents chips in the middle on this flop?

For me, pushing is probably the least optimum way of achieving this and allows him to fold out hands that you want in the hand.

As it turns out though, you got all your chips in by pushing so it worked anyway!

Bp!

The C Kid wrote:

I agree with Ste and Fuzz, in fact I'd go so far as to say that pushing is beyond horrible here.

At this stage of the tournament I don't want to play defensively, I want to double up. You should have no interest of limping into the cash
In this case it makes no difference as he's moving in on the flop anyway I'd imagine.

where people are beginning to think defensively like some of the responses on this thread, where you can accumulate the most chips.

Couple of things , where did i say anything about limpin into the cash? And Im not suggesting play defensivly either. Also the OP asked for peoples opinion, granted you think differently on how to play the hand, i think neither play is horrible

lets look at this scenarino. Its ok to say bettin 17,000 into a 7000 pot is unnessecary, it does sound slightly OTT.

However what kind of hand is your Opponent going to call a raise on a 3 suited flop here with, if you bet 5,000 will he call with any lower card than the K/A of diamonds, a low pocket pair or a staright draw with no diamonds? I dont think so, so he wont be calling, he'll either fold or decide he wants to see 2 cards and push all in on a semi bluff (holding the Ad pushin you off a hand minus a diamond)

So i would prefer to tell him from the get go, that im willing to bet it all (and be the aggressor) and let him take the gamble and play for most of his chips on his draw. I dont suggest playin defensivley at all. Im just saying that either way all the money is going in here, why not be the aggressor and put it in. I also think if i was the player with the Ad in my hand and see the other player put 17,000 into the 7,000 pot it would make me more inclined to call.

i see Fuzz and Ste and your own point at give him a bit of rope to hang himself with if he has nothing and wants to bluff the pot which is a good point

shaydy

Ah yes, sorry C Kid, I agree this is the better way to extract chips.

I was looking at it purely from a 'how could I have won this hand' response. The turn diamond makes this hand hell for me and looking back the only way in my opinion to take this pot down was to put all the pressure back on the BB to call for all his chips on a draw. My approach here was to keep control of the hand and keep the pressure on the BB

cardshark202

Just seen this thread, we don't want him to fold here too often, in fact I'll happily go against A bigger flush draw here. Pot is 7.6k I think so make it 4.2k on the flop and tank it on any non-diamond turn.