Four bullets

fuzzbox

PP 6-max 5/10
Stacks of about 1k.

Villain has just joined the table, and I dont really know him.

Preflop
Folded to hero on button with 8d9d, hero makes it 35, SB calls, villain calls in BB.

Flop (115)
Jd 5d 6c
check, hero bets 100, sb folds, bb calls

Turn (315)
Ks
check, hero often checks here, but decides to bet this time, 225, call

River (765)
2s
check, hero pushes for 650ish.

comments?

5starpool

When this works this is great, but since you don't know your opp at all, it is a risky move. Personally I need to have some knowledge that this is a player that can lay down here without a big hand before I try this.

Maybe at this level this play pays off more but I find at .5/1 or 1/2 this doesn't work near often enough to make this play profitable.

The one good aspect of this is that it is more than reasonable to put your opponent on a draw with all the check calls here and this being the case he has no option but to lay down in this situation. Doesn't mean he isn't playing a big hand passively though. I love covering my bases it seems.

califano

Its ballsy and for that reason i like it!. Im not sure if these moves are a feature of your play but youve posted similarly risky ones like this. If so i'd say you suffer a fair bit of variance?.

fuzzbox

5starpool wrote:

When this works this is great, but since you don't know your opp at all, it is a risky move. Personally I need to have some knowledge that this is a player that can lay down here without a big hand before I try this.

Maybe at this level this play pays off more but I find at .5/1 or 1/2 this doesn't work near often enough to make this play profitable.

The one good aspect of this is that it is more than reasonable to put your opponent on a draw with all the check calls here and this being the case he has no option but to lay down in this situation. Doesn't mean he isn't playing a big hand passively though. I love covering my bases it seems.

I prolly try this about zero % of the time at .5/1 or 1/2.

ianmc38

I don't agree about this never working at 1/2. I'll often fire triple or quadruple barrel bluffs successfully at that level, just not against a calling station.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I don't agree about this never working at 1/2. I'll often fire triple or quadruple barrel bluffs successfully at that level, just not against a calling station.

Well at the .5/1 or 1/2 level I am more likely to get paid off if I check behind and hit a flush/straight

Plus, I'm more likely to get called by J7o.

So I dont do it very often at that level.

- EDIT -
I dont do it all that often at 5/10 level either, it just appears that way cos the boring ones where I check turn and he bets river and I fold ... dont really warrant a post.

delanec8

If he was a solid player he would only think about calling you with KJ or better. Its hard to put him on a set because generally on that board he would raise the flop or turn to protect himself against hands like yours drawing out on him.

It looks like he has similar hand to you and he has to fold but with no knowledge of the player i dont like the move. If he was on the draw he would obviously fold for 400 but if he wasnt drawing what hand would he lay down here that he has called off almost 400 for already(maybe AJ or small two pair). I like betting 400 here because it gets rid of probably the same hands an all in will and in many ways it looks stronger than an all in. You save yourself 250 from the hands that he will call an all in from anyway or raise all in himself.

I think he probably called with KJs if youve posted it.

careca

delanec8 wrote:

I think he probably called with KJs if youve posted it.

I think he folded.

Its a good bet because the flush draw is out there. If he hits a set or two pair or even TPTK, he really has to raise either on the flop or the turn as he is giving you a free card each time. By simply calling each time, it looks like hes drawing to the nut flush and can't possible call the river bet. As someone else said "ballsy though".

delanec8

careca wrote:

I think he folded.

Its a good bet because the flush draw is out there. If he hits a set or two pair or even TPTK, he really has to raise either on the flop or the turn as he is giving you a free card each time. By simply calling each time, it looks like hes drawing to the nut flush and can't possible call the river bet. As someone else said "ballsy though".

It looks like a draw alright. Thats why i think 400 on the river is the better bet because it gets rid of those hands and on the off chance that he was slowplaying a set, you save yourself €250. There isnt a hand i can think of that he would call 400 and not call an all in.

careca

delanec8 wrote:

It looks like a draw alright. Thats why i think 400 on the river is the better bet because it gets rid of those hands and on the off chance that he was slowplaying a set, you save yourself €250. There isnt a hand i can think of that he would call 400 and not call an all in.

very true

MrPillowTalk

I like betting the river as villain looks very mush like he is on a draw, but why bet 650 if he is on a draw 300 bet would get it done and if he is stupid enough to be trapping with a set on that board you save some dough.

300 would be amore frightening bet to me than the 650.

jimbling

AKd?

Bandana boy

I dont know
Lately with 2 pair TPTK i have called down in this spot and called the river bluff bet off.
I love guys who 3 bet a bluff
I much prefer if you check the turn
And raise the river bet that this will induce

3 Betting 650 is too much
What will call 300 will call 650

I think he folded but i think this pretty risky strategy

fuzzbox

Guys - the pot is 750, betting 650 is hardly "HUGE".

Bandana - why do you love guys who can 3-barrell bluff ... I hate them.

FWIW - at the time, I was sure he had a pair.

MrPillowTalk

I dont think the bet is hugh I just think its not needed.

delanec8

fuzzbox wrote:

Guys - the pot is 750, betting 650 is hardly "HUGE".

FWIW - at the time, I was sure he had a pair.

650 isnt huge but i think it doesnt do much more to get rid of one pair as 400 would(perhaps even less). If he is willing to call 400 on the river with AK,QQ or AJ he will more than likely call 650 so the times he does call youre losing 250 less. I think 300 is a little too small considering you bet 225 on the turn.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Bandana - why do you love guys who can 3-barrell bluff ... I hate them.

I second that. I absolutely hate opponents that can 3-barrel bluff.

handsfree

i really don't like this move, i'm pretty sure the villian puts you on a flush draw and knows you've missed. he didn't give you calling odds on the turn and the all in bet on the river screams don't call me. although its good for your table image and you should play you next monster this way.

fuzzbox

handsfree wrote:

i really don't like this move, i'm pretty sure the villian puts you on a flush draw and knows you've missed. he didn't give you calling odds on the turn and the all in bet on the river screams don't call me. although its good for your table image and you should play you next monster this way.

*I* bet every street.
Villain didnt do anything.

Why do you think villain puts me on a flush draw?

handsfree

sorry misread. still don't like it that much but its hard for the villian to call with anything less than 2 pair. this play used to cost me alot of money so i stop doing it

fuzzbox

Results:
Villain called me with AsJc.

*sigh*.

FastMachine

Never underestimate the ability of an unknown villain to call off his stack with a flopped top pair. Or even a known one for that matter.

fuzzbox

FastMachine wrote:

Never underestimate the ability of an unknown villain to call off his stack with a flopped top pair. Or even a known one for that matter.

I bet he folds to precisely the same action when I have a set ....

Bandana boy

fuzzbox wrote:

Guys - the pot is 750, betting 650 is hardly "HUGE".

Bandana - why do you love guys who can 3-barrell bluff ... I hate them.

FWIW - at the time, I was sure he had a pair.

I find (now granted i am playing 1-2 ) that once i spot a 3 barrell bluffer he is very profitable
and when i have called him down/ raised him on river once or twice they tend to put my aggresive action with my Big hands as counter play to there aggresion.
Plus the river call against them with TPGK is more than profitable

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

I find (now granted i am playing 1-2 ) that once i spot a 3 barrell bluffer he is very profitable
and when i have called him down/ raised him on river once or twice they tend to put my aggresive action with my Big hands as counter play to there aggresion.
Plus the river call against them with TPGK is more than profitable

If the guy ALWAYS bluffs, then its fine to check and let him bluff, but if he bluffs sometimes, and sometimes has a hand, then its much much much harder.

AmarilloFats

Hey Fuzz,
I check this turn with this hand the vast majority of the time.
obv. in this hand if you check the turn a river bluff will work approx 0% of the time..

But how do you like a turn check, and a >half pot bet on a balnk river??

If you check turn it's more difficult to get paid off if you hit your flush.

I'm not sure wot I prefer on turn...
Did you decide to commit to hand on turn regardless of river????

What about if river was an Ace?

cardshark202

AmarilloFats wrote:

Hey Fuzz,
I check this turn with this hand the vast majority of the time.
obv. in this hand if you check the turn a river bluff will work approx 0% of the time..

But how do you like a turn check, and a >half pot bet on a balnk river??

If you check turn it's more difficult to get paid off if you hit your flush.

I'm not sure wot I prefer on turn...
Did you decide to commit to hand on turn regardless of river????

What about if river was an Ace?

fuzzbox wrote:

Turn (315)
Ks
check, hero often checks here, but decides to bet this time, 225

I would assume Fuzz makes this river bet in this spot regardless of wether an Ace hits.

handsfree

did you post this because people were giving you hassle over posting winning hands too much. i have noticed that in the last week you have posted one really passive play and one overly aggro play. is this an attempt to mix it up?

in each scenario you have lost but what have you learnt other than overly weak loses you money and throwing more money into a pot where the villian has called 2 large bets, where he obviously has a bit of the action and doesn't believe you have him beat.

I personally enjoyed the posts where you won and it helps improve players to go through scenarios where there is a tight call rather than a misplay. though you could go through plays where you made a tight call and lost.