Training supplements

yomchi

Hopefully the Mod won't mind me plugging something here...?

The Irish company Nutrition X, who make whey proteins, creatine, glutamine, and pre-training supplements are putting on special discounts for MAist. I've been putting them under pressure to drop the prices a tad for our good selves, one of the directors is a friend of mine.

Just off hand is anyone here into taking pre/post whatever supplements and if so would anyone like to avail of discounted supp's?

Dragan

I do product testing for Nutrition X. Love there stuff!!

Roper

They do viagra?... for a mate like...

What sort of discount?

whitelightrider

Ive been taking their supplements for a while now and they are top class. Came recommended from one of the guys on the fitnessireland forum. Top class products and very reasonably priced.

Im a martial artist and take the ProX after training and find it great.

dlofnep

I've been supplementing myself pizza. I should start this diet I've promised myself soon.

celt2005

Have to say I think ProX is poor ..... They are far from Top Class

tried it , and thought towards CYTOPro, Optimum Nutrition etc.... it was a poor grade of Protein , BCAAs.

Was wondering , what Proteins were to taking before ProX and what specific benefits did you get from it.


A friend of mine took ProX trying to gain lean muscle, and drop bodyweight, he lost 4lbs of lean mass, and bodyfat went up !!!!!

Best Proteins on the Market are Mauro Pasquales MD products, they are dear but worth it, he trains Bob Sapp etc ....

If you are lookin, for cheap ...
http://www.athletes.com/fun/topicoftheweek33.htm

Dragan

celt2005 wrote:

A friend of mine took ProX trying to gain lean muscle, and drop bodyweight, he lost 4lbs of lean mass, and bodyfat went up !!!!!

To be honest, the only thing I can question is his diet. It's not possible to add a protein source to your diet and lose muscular weight because you added it. If he could do that he would be a walking science study.

Also, with the minor ammount of calories per serving of pretty much any Whey Protein he would need to be eating this all day, every day to add bodyfat because of it. Throw in the fact that excess protein is not stored as bodyfat but rather it is excreted from the body and you have a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about or what he's doing!!!! Tell your friend to hit the net and start researching his nutrition!

Tell your friend to check the rest of his diet. He is either lacking carbs, protein or healthy fats or he is lacking overall calories.

They would be my two best guesses as to how this happened.

If you want to tell your mate to either give you his diet to post over on Fitness, or to just post it himself I will be more than happy to have a look at is for him.

celt2005

Dragan,


He does,nt need help, he is a certified strength and conditioning coach and has years of experience with diet / supplementation.He regularly cycles the proteins / suppements he takes.


Maybe I did not clarify, he used ProX because his usual Protein / BCAAs
were unavailable, and had a negative reaction, as for walking medical study, with the amount of sugars/sweeteners in ProX, he would have no problems putting on weight.

Dragan

celt2005 wrote:

He does,nt need help, he is a certified strength and conditioning coach and has years of experience with diet / supplementation.He regularly cycles the proteins / suppements he takes.

So state this in your post , instead of saying "my friend" because quite frankly your post made him look like a rookie. And with all his experience then i imagine he should have spotted a drop in lean mass and a 4 pound increase in BF a bit quicker than he did. I'm assuming he was taking it for 8+ weeks?

celt2005 wrote:

Maybe I did not clarify, he used ProX because his usual Protein / BCAAs were unavailable, and had a negative reaction, as for walking medical study, with the amount of sugars/sweeteners in ProX, he would have no problems putting on weight.

No maybe about it, you didn't. Oh yeah, and at 20 excess calories per serving it's just packed full of sugar alright! ( excess calories being those derived from sources other than the unflavoured whey... so that would be flavourings, bulking agents etc )

Dragan

celt2005 wrote:

He does,nt need help, he is a certified strength and conditioning coach and has years of experience with diet / supplementation.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that i assume this means his a personall trainer/gym instructor?

celt2005

Dragan,


He,s not a fitness instructor, it was in 2 weeks he noticed the muscle waistage, only thing changed was moving from ON / MD Products to ProX.

My question still stands, what supplementation regime did/do you have, and what benefits have you noticed (keep it specific).

I have no interest eitherway in ProX, The only reason I promote nutrition companies is they are good.

whitelightrider

Before ProX, I took Whey Protein and Maximuscle products.

If you feel that ProX is so bad, then what would you recommend as a protein supplement?

Dragan

celt2005 wrote:

He,s not a fitness instructor, it was in 2 weeks he noticed the muscle waistage, only thing changed was moving from ON / MD Products to ProX.

Wow, i would be worried about that alright, but not for supplemental reasons. Even if he stopped taking supplemental protein completely there is no way stable muscle mass should break down that fast. It should normally take something like 4 to 6 weeks for an amino acid deficeit to have enough effect to actually affect your bodily mass. I could maybe understand size, but not mass.

Weird.

I had been taking Maximuscle. I'm not into fancy stuff , i'm just a protein and creatine kinda guy. So anyway, after changing to Pro X i noticed a nice increase in LBM, maybe as much as about a pound ever two weeks for the first 3 months. SO that abouts 6 pounds added to a trained athlete in 3 months. It's not like i was just starting or anything. All in all, i just think taste wise, mixing wise and results wise that this is a very good product!

Other qualtiy stuff of course is ON ( optimum nutrition like you already mentioned ) and of course Reflex, which are great but can be a little pricey to pick up over here!

celt2005 wrote:

"The only reason I promote nutrition companies is they are good."

Good for you, i don't promote anyone though, I just chat about it on the internet. If i thought i was promoting i would be charging!!

Dragan

whitelightrider wrote:

Maximuscle products.

When i started lifting i fell for Maximuscle too, you really can get products that are just as good if not better for a lot less money!!! Reflex, ON, ProX is you like it. I would stay away from Nutrisport and the Title stuff though!

whitelightrider

Yeah, ProX was recommended to me by one of the guys on the fitnessireland forum. It's easy to mix, tastes great, and when I was taking it properly, was getting great results. Plus it's not overpriced.

Hoping to get back into things this weekend so it's back to the ProX and CellX for me!!!

Unless anyone can recommend anything better I think I'll be sticking with it.

Bronco

"Wow, i would be worried about that alright, but not for supplemental reasons. Even if he stopped taking supplemental protein completely there is no way stable muscle mass should break down that fast. It should normally take something like 4 to 6 weeks for an amino acid deficeit to have enough effect to actually affect your bodily mass. I could maybe understand size, but not mass."

Sorry Dragon but you are wrong here, your body can experience an amino deficit within a workout, if you put poor quality protein into your engine then the engine will find a better source of quality protein. Meaning your engine it will eat itself.

And this "When i started lifting i fell for Maximuscle too, you really can get products that are just as good if not better for a lot less money!!! Reflex, ON, ProX is you like it. I would stay away from Nutrisport and the Title stuff though"

I would be intrested to know what type of lifting you are talking about, what type of training are you doing?

It sounds to me like you fell for the ProX
"So anyway, after changing to Pro X i noticed a nice increase in LBM, maybe as much as about a pound ever two weeks for the first 3 months. SO that abouts 6 pounds added to a trained athlete in 3 months. It's not like i was just starting or anything."

Firstoff you have misplaced 6 lbs somewhere. and secondly this is nothing special, what did you weigh before and what do you weigh now.

Dragan

Bronco wrote:

Sorry Dragon but you are wrong here, your body can experience an amino deficit within a workout, if you put poor quality protein into your engine then the engine will find a better source of quality protein. Meaning your engine it will eat itself.

Indeed you can, but your body will not instantly become catabolic to the point of you weighing less that you did when you started? Taking into account that most people merely supplement with protein but still eat a lot of protein based foods i.e meat, it would be reasonable to assume that most people could give up Whey pretty much altogether and go for a decent period of time without noticing a huge drop in lean body mass. I thought my post was pretty clear on what i was talking about with the "no way STABLE MUSCLE MASS should break down that fast"

I'm not talking about blood levels of amino acids. Sorry if you were able to get that impression or if i was unclear on where i was going.

As for what sort of training i do when i started I was primarily doing "body building style training. These days it's a mixture of hypertrophy and strenght training, involving isolation work, powerlifts and crossfit style training. Oh yeah, and sparring of course!

Bronco wrote:

It sounds to me like you fell for the ProX
"So anyway, after changing to Pro X i noticed a nice increase in LBM, maybe as much as about a pound ever two weeks for the first 3 months. SO that abouts 6 pounds added to a trained athlete in 3 months. It's not like i was just starting or anything."

Firstoff you have misplaced 6 lbs somewhere. and secondly this is nothing special, what did you weigh before and what do you weigh now.

If i gained roughly a pound, every two weeks for 3 months, and 3 months = 12 weeks, by 2 equals 6 then where have i misplaced 6 lbs???????

BTW if you would like to continue the conversation just post up your question on Fitness board and i will be glad to have a chat with you. I don't like taking up the OP's post like this.

Dragan

Bronco wrote:

Sorry Dragon but you are wrong here, your body can experience an amino deficit within a workout.

Oh yeah, and where did i say how quickly or slowly the body can go through an amino acid deficeit? All i did was describe one of the effects of such, and give a rough time scale as to when this should happen in a subject who had dropped dietary protein from a supplemental source but kept there wholefood sources.

So don't say I'm wrong when you don;t even read what i wrote correctly.

celt2005

White,


Earlier in post I sent link with some good low price product, think supp. shops in Capel St. / Georges St. supply some .... , have tried and highly recomend.

Dr. Mauro Pasquale MD products can only be bought on his site , I think ... , but are fully screened by Olympic council, and are of highest quality, but if ya want the best ya have to pay.....


Dragan,

Thanks for reply, think you would be better getting good supplementation, 2lbs( less than a KG) a week is not very good, what Protein do you consume, how do you stage it, what other supp. do you ingest to stimulate muscle development etc .....

Dragan

celt2005 wrote:

Dragan,

Thanks for reply, think you would be better getting good supplementation, 2lbs( less than a KG) a week is not very good, what Protein do you consume, how do you stage it, what other supp. do you ingest to stimulate muscle development etc .....

Your trying to tell me that a TRAINED person, making one dietary change and adding 6 pounds of muscle from just that change is a bad thing? Come on, how long have you been lifting and how long do you expect to stay making big gains?

Oh yeah, and add in the fact that the one change was simply in Whey Protein, not adding L-Arginine, Creatine Ethel Ester or anything else to the mix.

Jesus lads, take it to the fitness boards if you want to know more.

Bronco

But if you miss your window of oppertunity for protein then your catabolic pathways are already established.

Strength training causes immediate amino acid deficit and microtraumas to the muscle being worked, without the proper nutrition to give repair the body will eat itself. The point here is that ProX is a poor quality protein which doesn't provide enough the essential aminos to produce repair.

During an isolation/ Hypertrophy workout the muscles being worked use protein in the form of amino acids as a fuel source. These are taken from muscles that are not directly involved in the workout.

If the volume of training is high enough, then the deficit can be great enough to cause rapid weight loss. more so if the workout lasts for over 1 hour.

To countreact this I have also used some of the MD products, resolve and his amino acid combinations, and combined with his protein then the results are well worth the extra €.

And weigh yourself prior to training and after, even with rehydration you can still weigh less.

It is very possible to loose LBM quickly, this will depend on workload and nutritional habits.

Bronco

and yes, 6 lbs in 3 months is still not so great.

Even for a trained person

Dragan

Bronco wrote:

And weigh yourself prior to training and after, even with rehydration you can still weigh less.

The two most telling factors to lose of weight during and after anywork out are loss of glycogen and loss of water.

Obviously you can rehydrate all you like but it's only by taking in a good source of glycogen that you will truly replenish this lost "weight" as for each gram of glycogen that is stored 2.6 grams of water is also stored, so no gram of glycogen equals no gram of water.

Now then, thanks for putting up the post on how all this stuff works, even though i already know it i'm sure other people will find it useful.

As for your part about how the amino acids to fuel muscles is taken from non working muscle, this will only be in the event of blood level amino acids being depleted, so something simple like a shake before your workout can stop this, or eating a wholefood source of protein about an hour before your workout.

Now then , this is all still pretty moot to the point that your originally tried to make, which is that you lost enough LBM to notice so within a mere two weeks.

Once again this was simply down to three things, overtraining or undereating or under recovering.

I'm sure that the products you are recommending are good ones, they must be if you can lose that sort of weight so quickly without them!!!!!

Now, this is my last post to this thread, for the FINAL TIME, if you have anything else then please bring it to FITNESS.

VERY sorry to the regular MA board posters. :cool:

celt2005

Dragan,


This post was started in the MA forum, and was titled Training Supplements, we have previous mails regarding Paleo, whats the difference ??

Do not see why you are apologising, this is a vital part of all TMA/MMA training programme, and generally the most ignored .....


Thread has expanded, but surely this is the point of discussion.

yomchi

celt2005 wrote:

Have to say I think ProX is poor ..... They are far from Top Class

tried it , and thought towards CYTOPro, Optimum Nutrition etc.... it was a poor grade of Protein , BCAAs.

Was wondering , what Proteins were to taking before ProX and what specific benefits did you get from it.


A friend of mine took ProX trying to gain lean muscle, and drop bodyweight, he lost 4lbs of lean mass, and bodyfat went up !!!!!

Best Proteins on the Market are Mauro Pasquales MD products, they are dear but worth it, he trains Bob Sapp etc ....

If you are lookin, for cheap ...
http://www.athletes.com/fun/topicoftheweek33.htm

CYTOpro is American protein its not bad stuff. However you are incorrect about the BCAA profile. The American proteins have a weaker BCAA profile than Irish. Shannon proteins have a much higher quality protein and are regarded throughout Europe as one of the, if not THE best proteins.

Pro-X has higher quality L-Tyrosine, L-Lucine, L-Isolucine, L-Valine, Glutamic acid and especially IGF-1. The IGF-1 in the American proteins is over filtered and considered a lower quality. This is what determins it anabolic make up as a protein. This is all fact and can be researched if time permits.

You say your friend 'noticed' lean muscle wastage... noticed? If he was taking it correctly, this is impossible unless his metabolism reacts differently to everyone else. Several of the leading BBers in the country use Pro-X and to great effect. Including Eamonn Manning who ranks 3rd in the WORLD Natural BBing stakes.

Whatever price you buy your supplements at in the shops at, I can get it cheaper for you. Heck I'll even deliver it you!

This is only for the MA world though, we have to look after each other IMO.

yomchi

The point here is that ProX is a poor quality protein which doesn't provide enough the essential aminos to produce repair.

Compared to what exactly?

celt2005

Jon,


I have to question your assertion that BCAAs in Americas are poor quality towards Irish / European counterparts, and would ask you to show where you researched, and came to this assumption.

The highest grade BCAA is Pharmacutical standard, are ProX at this standard ?? , The BBs you mention checked all supplements and come to the conclusion that ProX is best ... or do they get it free/cheap ??

Milos Sarcev, one of the Worlds top Bodybuilders once called body builders "athletic manequins", I agree with this statement , hence their relevance to MA is neglible, What athletes use your Product ??? , do you have any specific information regarding ProX apart from price ......

As for Poor quality towards what , the MD products mentioned earlier are used extensively by Olympic athletes throughout Americas.

http://www.metabolicdiet.com/clients/default.asp


You state muscle waistage through training is impossible, he replaced ON / MD with ProX and continued his training schedule as normal, they were results he noticed.

yomchi

celt2005 wrote:

Jon,


I have to question your assertion that BCAAs in Americas are poor quality towards Irish / European counterparts, and would ask you to show where you researched, and came to this assumption.

The highest grade BCAA is Pharmacutical standard, are ProX at this standard ?? , The BBs you mention checked all supplements and come to the conclusion that ProX is best ... or do they get it free/cheap ??

Milos Sarcev, one of the Worlds top Bodybuilders once called body builders "athletic manequins", I agree with this statement , hence their relevance to MA is neglible, What athletes use your Product ??? , do you have any specific information regarding ProX apart from price ......

As for Poor quality towards what , the MD products mentioned earlier are used extensively by Olympic athletes throughout Americas.

http://www.metabolicdiet.com/clients/default.asp


You state muscle waistage through training is impossible, he replaced ON / MD with ProX and continued his training schedule as normal, they were results he noticed.

Celt,
I don't want you to think im stating this in order push 'my' product. It isn't my product, I have no financial interest in Pro-X or any other product, I am not part of ay compnay. I was just stating what I know to be fact - thats all.

I will endeavour to produce the facts about the BCAA and the higher standard in Europe.

You ask do I have any specific information regarding Pro-X apart from the price?
Again you assume im pushing my product. I came on here to offer everyone here a cheaper deal on some good supplements. We are meant to be the one community. What information would you like me to get for you?

I do know that Pro-X is flying off the shelves in most Supp stores around Ireland - it ain't cheap in the stores trust me.

The whey protein used in Pro-X is Irish, made at shannon proteins, where Twinlab, ISS, and Universal get their proteins too.

celt2005

Jon,


As I have stated previously, these threads are good for people to voice their opinions on areas that affect our MA training, so I am not trying to tarnish your reputation, or insult with my opinions, just to add to the debate.

I believe we have differing opinions on this, and as they say thats life.

You have my opinions now, anything others can add would be good....

yomchi

celt2005 wrote:

Jon,


As I have stated previously, these threads are good for people to voice their opinions on areas that affect our MA training, so I am not trying to tarnish your reputation, or insult with my opinions, just to add to the debate.

I believe we have differing opinions on this, and as they say thats life.

You have my opinions now, anything others can add would be good....

Agreed!

Bronco

Jon wrote:

Celt,
I don't want you to think im stating this in order push 'my' product. It isn't my product, I have no financial interest in Pro-X or any other product, I am not part of ay compnay. I was just stating what I know to be fact - thats all.

But you have previously stated that you are selling and delivering ProX.


I do know that Pro-X is flying off the shelves in most Supp stores around Ireland - it ain't cheap in the stores trust me.

Again, are you seeking customers here.

The whey protein used in Pro-X is Irish, made at shannon proteins, where Twinlab, ISS, and Universal get their proteins too.

It is not essential to know where the products are made but what else the factory makes. Some of the products by the above companies are not suitable for athletes who can be drug tested as any cross contamination of banned products can result in positive test results.

A point made by Celt was that all of the MD + products are independantly tested for banned substances, and these products cary a guarantee that athletes on these products are safe to test.

You also mentioned in an earlier post that ProX carries higher quality IGF-1, this product is most definately on the WADA Banned List.

If it is flying off the shelves then you are selling products that are not safe for athletes.

I am not trying to tie up this thread but I am not willing to allow Tits, free reign to promote **** while saying it's tiptop.

ProX is an inferior product that spends more on advertising that it does on quality, always a sign of a wolf in sheeps clothing.

trollybus

Hi Bronco, Have you ever heard of the pot calling the kettle black, this is in reference to you calling jon a "tit". IGF-1 is naturally occuring in all whey proteins worldwide so from your ingenious powers of deduction all whey products must be on the WADA and IOC banned list! The companies Jon listed are made in an enviroment where every ingredient is tested entering and leaving the factory, each batch produced has a sample taken and is sent to an IOC/WADA registered lab to be tested for all varients of banned substances. Someone like yourself is not intelligent enough to be giving out advice and opinions on the internet, I strongly suggest you do some research before making a "tit" out of yourself in public again!
As for Nutrition X spending too much on marketing, well its obviously working because 4 out of every 5 proteins purchased in Ireland are made by them!

yomchi

Bronco,
I don't think there was any need to stoop to name calling. Thanks trolly bus for the info and thanks to everyone else was interested and PM'd me.

Glad I could help some

Jon

Bronco

Jon

I got to the name calling as I became enraged with the fact that you stated that you will give all better prices for ProX and you even offered to deliver it.

And then you stated that you were not working for or involved with ProX. Am I missing something here.

This got my back up, so to speak.

Trollydolly

IGF-1 is naturally occuring in all whey proteins, but the problem is that it is IGF-1 is a polypeptide consisting of 70 amino acids. It has a very poor oral bioavailability as most doesn't survive digestion intact, and what little that might is too large to be absorbed.

The point I was trying to make was that if the protein is enhanced with IGF-1 there would be problems. Seams as jon said that there was higher amounts I saw it necessary to post my reply.

Another thing you stated is that the supplements are tested by a IOC/WADA registered lab. Seams as there are no IOC/WADA registered labs in Ireland and two in the UK, who don't test your products, then you may want to enlighten us as to who is doing your so called testing.

BTW MD+ products come with a guarantee that they are strictly complient with all drug testing parameters. In addition to that Dr. Mauro Pasquale is an IOC expert witness in drug testing matters. As he has written over 1,000 pier reviewed papers on the subject of drugs in sport.

So my research is done,

now trollydolly it's time to put up and shut up.

Perhapse you would like puff the majic dragon to come back to the thread and bail you out with some statement about L-Arginene or Creatine ester....

Dragan

Bronco wrote:

Perhapse you would like puff the majic dragon to come back to the thread and bail you out with some statement about L-Arginene or Creatine ester....

Any time you want to stop making things personnal just give me a shout dude!

(( Editing out the first few question here! Sorry but thought Bronco was Celtfire's "Strenght and Conditioning Coach" friend - last question still stand i suppose! )) So why is 6 pounds of muscle gained in 3 months ( remember, that would be 24 pounds in 12 months if the rate kept up ) in a trained athlete poor?

And you back tracking of the IGF-1 is simply priceless to be honest. You went from ( "IGF-1 is banned and shouldn't be in whey protein" to "sure it's in there, but i thought you meant they were adding more" )

If you had read Trollybus' post correctly you would see the word's "each batch produced has a sample taken and is sent to an IOC/WADA registered lab to be tested for all varients of banned substances." So i don't see why your jumping all over the fact that no labs in Ireland do IOC/WADA testing as this is not what was implied.

Now then, finally, I don't know why you would mention L-Arginine and Creatine Ethel Ester as a defence for something, as the only time i mentioned those was as part of a description of what i was NOT taking at the time i changed my Protein source.

To be honest dude, all i have found you to be is rude and ignorant. All you have really done is plough on with your opinions, post the very basics of sport nutrition from an angle of amino acids and proteins and general make a bit of a plank of yourself. There really is no point in treating this like an argument as it really isn't one.

It's a bunch of people giving there opinions of stuff. You have yours and your entitled to it and hey, i'm happy for you. But please leave the personnal stuff out of it.

No need to stoop to simple name calling because you are on the internet. I can only assume that we you face to face having a conversation with some one you would have more manners, so please act that way here too.



Signed,
Puff!

Cabelo

Lads, small question here from a little quy who has keeping his weight reasonably low in his best interest (so I've neer caught on to the whole supplementy thing) but... what's the deal with protien supplements et al? If you're eating properly (more or less meat depending on what you're focussing on like) then surely you'll not see a massive protien supplement need?

Maybe I'm wrong, just thought I'd ask.

Dragan

Cabelo wrote:

Lads, small question here from a little quy who has keeping his weight reasonably low in his best interest but... what's the deal with protien supplements et al? If you're eating properly (more or less meat depending on what you're focussing on like) then surely you'll not see a massive protien supplement need?

Maybe I'm wrong, just thought I'd ask.

Your pretty much spot on there dude, most people don't really need to supplement with protein to a huge degree, although quite a few people could do with adding a bit more wholefood protein to there diet!!!

Now then, quite simple put protein is a better source of calories than carbs of fats for people looking to keep the weight down as

a) lean protein sources are pretty low calories
b) protein itself has a slight thermogenic affect as it takes more calories for the body to digest protein than other macronutirents
c) excess protein will not be stored as bodyfat ( unlike carbs and fat itself ) it will simply be excreted from the body.
b) red meat sources are also high in B vits and Zinc to keep those test levels high.

Depending on your activity levels each day, and what your current diet is like you may need more or less food. However, as the saying goes, if your happy as you are then it's all good!!! If you think you need to add some lean mass, or loss a little bit of adipose then just post up you regular excerise and diet and we should be able to come up with something for ya!!!

celt2005

Dragan,


Thought you said ya were leavin, tha thread

Also it was my "Personal Trainer" friend who ingested the 14,000 calories when he changed to ProX, seems some people are smarter when it comes to slagging people off.

Without getting too far into this , I have seen nothing from ProX stating they batch test their products with any internationally recognised labs, if you or anyone else has information stating they do, please post.

Dragan

celt2005 wrote:

Also it was my "Personal Trainer" friend who ingested the 14,000 calories when he changed to ProX, seems some people are smarter when it comes to slagging people off.

Oh, sorry about that, I assumed that Bronco was him as he only seemed to be involved after you mentioned it! Maybe you could have your friend post here and explain then? To be honest i truly am curious as to how this happened.

Oh yeah, and i had to come back after Bronco decided to cheap shot me!!

celt2005

Ha! Ha!


No my friend does,nt have a computer, this is why I have to defend him on this post !!


Hope your friend TrollyBus posts his second mail soon !!!!

Dragan

celt2005 wrote:

Ha! Ha!


No my friend does,nt have a computer, this is why I have to defend him on this post !!


Hope your friend TrollyBus posts his second mail soon !!!!

You don't need to defend him at all dude he himself has not said anything at all!!!! You are simply passing on second hand info. To be honest though I really am curious so if you could put it to him that would be sweet. It's just that as far as i am aware the only reason to add weight is to overeat above your calorific needs. As one pound of added weight means you eat roughly 3500 more calories than you need in a short period of time this would mean he should have over eaten by about 14,000 calories to add four pounds of bodyfat in two weeks!!!! If there is something other than over eating that can cause this and he can figure out what it was, i think the health and fitness community ( hell, everyone!!!! ) would be highly grateful!

As for Trollybus, have no idea who he is though I am assuming he is in someway connected to the conversations theme.

yomchi

Bronco wrote:

Jon

I got to the name calling as I became enraged with the fact that you stated that you will give all better prices for ProX and you even offered to deliver it.

And then you stated that you were not working for or involved with ProX. Am I missing something here.

This got my back up, so to speak.

Trollydolly

IGF-1 is naturally occuring in all whey proteins, but the problem is that it is IGF-1 is a polypeptide consisting of 70 amino acids. It has a very poor oral bioavailability as most doesn't survive digestion intact, and what little that might is too large to be absorbed.

The point I was trying to make was that if the protein is enhanced with IGF-1 there would be problems. Seams as jon said that there was higher amounts I saw it necessary to post my reply.

Another thing you stated is that the supplements are tested by a IOC/WADA registered lab. Seams as there are no IOC/WADA registered labs in Ireland and two in the UK, who don't test your products, then you may want to enlighten us as to who is doing your so called testing.

MD+ products come with a guarantee that they are strictly complient with all drug testing parameters. In addition to that Dr. Mauro Pasquale is an IOC expert witness in drug testing matters. As he has written over 1,000 pier reviewed papers on the subject of drugs in sport.

So my research is done,

now trollydolly it's time to put up and shut up.

Perhapse you would like puff the majic dragon to come back to the thread and bail you out with some statement about L-Arginene or Creatine ester....

You call me tit because of this? Me thinks it might be going against the grain of your own business.. otherwise I can't for the life of me think why this would 'enrage' you.
Check out the meditation threads dude.

No I don't work for Pro-X, I work for myself. So no your not missing anything.

Something so simple got your back up? - am I missing something here?

Seems you are wrong, I said it had a higher quality IGF-1. You are correct the lower grade stuff doesn't make it past the digestion tract. Thanks for re-enforcing my point.

Ah ha! You work for MD+ Products.. seems as though your pushing their stuff quite a bit, don't worry its a free world dude, I won't get my back up.

yomchi

I got to the name calling as I became enraged with the fact that you stated that you will give all better prices for ProX and you even offered to deliver it.

And then you stated that you were not working for or involved with ProX. Am I missing something here.

This got my back up, so to speak

Jeez.. I really CAN'T believe this !!

Im glad I don't work for Pro-X other wise I'd be found in the canal :rolleyes:

yomchi

If it is flying off the shelves then you are selling products that are not safe for athletes.

BTW are you going to retract this?

I hope you deem it prudent to do so mate

Clive

Jon wrote:

BTW are you going to retract this?

I hope you deem it prudent to do so mate

I don't think he's in much danger, since that's pretty much the Irish Sports Council's line on it too. I won't go into what quality processes XYZ company does or doesn't use (since I don't have a clue!), but the ISC, along with virtually every other relevant body (USADA, ASADA, UK Sport etc) won't recommend that any athlete takes anything that doesn't have a PA number or equivalent.

Unless things have majorly changed recently and nobody told me, of course.

yomchi

Clive wrote:

I don't think he's in much danger, since that's pretty much the Irish Sports Council's line on it too. I won't go into what quality processes XYZ company does or doesn't use (since I don't have a clue!), but the ISC, along with virtually every other relevant body (USADA, ASADA, UK Sport etc) won't recommend that any athlete takes anything that doesn't have a PA number or equivalent.

Unless things have majorly changed recently and nobody told me, of course.

Good point, the ISC will say you are respponsible for what you buy and take. But I think PA numbers are limited to Vitiman and Mineral supplements, and very few will carry them anyway. AFAIK

celt2005

Few things to catch up on ....

Dragan,

To be clear, He was in a 4 week hypertrophy phase, this means increasing calorific intake (Food ,Supplementation), he started on MD+,ON , and had to move to Pro-X,Mass-X, but rest of plan was maintained, Glycine,Glutamine,VitC,03 Oils etc ... and general diet remained the same, in week and a half with other proteins, he gained mass, when moved on onto second course of Proteins, his weight gain increased, but was fat, not muscle, the Protein he was taking was poor quality, leading to fat gains....

This is why I requested info on independent batch testing (If you know, please fill me in), and testimonials from Athletes (Again, fill me in).


Jon, Clive,

John Treacy , Head of ISC holds this stance, he is wrong , The International Olympic Commitee recognises supplementation, and allows supplement companies to test their products with IOC to see if they meet the standards needed to "Piss in a cup" if you excuse my English, these are generally the same standards used in other sports such as Boxing, Rugby etc .....

Usual ostrich mentality you expect from Irish Administrators.

My point has always been , the quality of Pro-X is poor towards other products on the market.

Bronco

I'm not working for MD+, nor delivering it. I wouldn't mind as a staff discount would be nice. And I don't have any friends who work there or own the company.

I wont retract but I will amend, "If it is flying off the shelves then you are selling products that are not safe for athletes". Should have read "If it's flying off the shelves then they are selling products that are quite possibly unsafe for athletes"

Jon, I apologize for calling you a tit, I guess you are just an all round nice guy who will deliver protein for the karma.

The idea of taking the mick from some of the other posters on the thread was to inject some venom and get some folks back on the thread.

Nutrition/supplementation is a huge subject and there is conflicting opinions everywhere. It is near impossible to know all there is to know about it.

But I am at the working/implementation end of the nutrition/supplementation market.

So this is what I know and see,
Not all calories are equal, you will store what you eat most of.
Eating a truck load of calories in the form of carbs or sugars will get you to store fat.

If you eat lots of calories in the form of bad fats then you will store fat. On the other hand, if you eat loads of calories of good fats your body will use it as an energy source.

This is because the important thing here is not only what you eat, but also how your body react to what you are eating.

If you switch your diet to inferior food sources/supplements then you will get less than optimal results. Body fat not lean muscle mass.

If anyone wants to research the physiology of what I am saying then there is an abundance of information out there, I would recommend that you find a reliable source and stick with it.

I will refrain from taking the mick...

celt2005

Jon, Dragan,


Another question, it was stated that Pro-X Protein was supplied by Shannon Minerals, when I checked their site, there is no mention ...

http://www.shannonminerals.ie/english/protein/products.htm


Awaiting your reply .....

Dragan

celt2005 wrote:

Dragan,

To be clear, He was in a 4 week hypertrophy phase, this means increasing calorific intake (Food ,Supplementation), he started on MD+,ON , and had to move to Pro-X,Mass-X, but rest of plan was maintained, Glycine,Glutamine,VitC,03 Oils etc ... and general diet remained the same, in week and a half with other proteins, he gained mass, when moved on onto second course of Proteins, his weight gain increased, but was fat, not muscle, the Protein he was taking was poor quality, leading to fat gains...

Seet, cheers for the info dude! Now it makes more sense, as in fairness the way you were previously saying all he had done was change his whey source, so it would be pretty much impossible to gain as much fat as he did within the two weeks from just this change.

There simple are not that many excess calories in Whey, ANY Whey pretty much. And if he was taking in too much Protein, the excess should simple be excreted and could not be turned to fat. This is just the way the body works!!!

However, MASS X would be a different story, this is an Mass Gainer, and would contain a lot of added carbs and i believe about 600 calories per serving. I'm not big on Mass Gainers, I prefer to manipulate carbs from wholefoods where i can! All in all what you were saying is now making a lot more sense.

Would have been much easier had you said he was taking the Mass Gainer from the start though!!!! From what you had said i was under the impression that all that had changed was the Whey Source!

Cheers dude!

Dragan

celt2005 wrote:

Jon, Dragan,


Another question, it was stated that Pro-X Protein was supplied by Shannon Minerals, when I checked their site, there is no mention ...

http://www.shannonminerals.ie/english/protein/products.htm


Awaiting your reply .....

Sorry dude, you seem to be taking things the wrong way here. I have said nothing about and in fact i know very little about the company itself.

I merely do product and mix testing for them is all! I don't need to know anything about a product to be able to test it, i simply incorporate it into my diet as per instruction and if i notice gains during the testing i will keep it in upon it's release. Obviously i have faith in the guys to not give me anything that might set back my training, and i only test products in final stages, when they are looking for a completely independant view of things!!!

As for why Shannon Minerals may not have there products listed :

"SMG produces products for sale in sixteen countries on three continents and in the majority of cases these products are both Country and customer specific. The listing below is a brief summary of some of the products we produce, however we are prohibited from compiling a complete listing due to confidentiality agreements with our customers. "

You seem to think that i feel the need to defend the company and other posters, despite the fact that i mentioned two other companies than i fully support at the start of this thread!!! One in Optimum Nutrition who i think we can both agree do some quality stuf, the other is Reflex who you really should check out ( Progen bars are lovely , and they have activated barely as a carbs source so super healthy by all appearances! )

My questions to you were based purely on the fact that it would be pretty much impossible to add 4 pounds of fat in two weeks from taking Pro X alone and this turned out to be correct, as your buddy was also taking a Mass Gainer.

"A friend of mine took ProX trying to gain lean muscle, and drop bodyweight, he lost 4lbs of lean mass, and bodyfat went up !!!!!"

THis wasn't the case ( as we recently found out with you saying he was also taking a Mass Gainer that he had never taken before and not just a Whey Protein ), and to be honest led me to believe that you were talking sh*t and didn't really know what you were on about!

Now that you have given me the full facts about what changes were made i can see your point and understand what may have gone awry!!!!

All in all, it's been nice talking to both you and Bronco, and Jon.

The only think i would ask is that for future threads where simply human physiology is involved that you just give all the facts at the start!!!