Whats my move?

connie147

€300 MTT 3 hours into the tourney(50 runners). average stack approx 9,000.lost half my stack early on with JJ on a flop of 9-6-4 rainbow.(pre-flop raiser bet out for 1000,I reraise to 3,500,he(good solid player)goes all-in over the top and I have to lay it down.Build my stack up again to approx 9,000 when this hand happens(my table image wiould probably be tight aggressive so far).
Blinds 150-300 im in the BB. UTG(average player) flat calls,good player in MP flat calls,SB(good player well known to me) completes and then I look down at two black aces.I make it another 1,000 to play and all 3 join the party!
Flop comes Qc,5s 8h. SB checks and I bet out 3,000 into the 4,000 pot. UTG and MP folds while SB reraises all-in(hes sitting on approx 12k). If i fold here im left with approx 4,000 which is still playable but gutwrenching,If i call and win ill have 18,000 and obviously if I call and lose Ill be on the sidelines.
My thoughts on his hand range --I rule out A-Q as knowing Dave,he woukld definately have raised from here pre-flop.Same thoughts on QQ or KK.I have layed down to a big reraise earlier(not to Dave But he seen it) so him making a move is not out of the question if hes putting me on A-K or a small pair.
Whats my move?(live game)

RoundTower

You have more than half your stack in there. Don't fold now.

delanec8

Given your read on the player i think 90% of the time he will have 88 or 55. Even though you know he is capable of making a move he must realise that you are pretty pot committed and have shown a lot of strength in the hand. There are no draws out there so the only hand which he may do this with which you are ahead of is AQ or KK but KK is very unlikely so AQ is really the only hand you can beat.

I think you should fold but if it was me i would probably end up calling regardless of the fact that my brain would be telling me to fold, my chips would more than likely end up in the middle. It would be hard to lay down with almost half your chips in but with blinds at 150-300 you will still have a little room to work with.

With no read on the player i would shove in and hope for the best.

ZZR1100

fold u dumbass

handsfree

call, i think this a blatent move. he's seen you make a big laydown and i'm sure the only hand that he could possibly have considering the reraise preflop is QQ which you have already ruled out.

delanec8

handsfree wrote:

call, i think this a blatent move. he's seen you make a big laydown and i'm sure the only hand that he could possibly have considering the reraise preflop is QQ which you have already ruled out.

You dont think he calls another 1000 preflop into a pot of 4200 with 55 or 88 preflop?

fuzzbox

Raise more preflop (say 2000/2500 to go), and push any flop.

As for now - call - its too late to wonder.

The Ace Face

fuzzbox wrote:

Raise more preflop (say 2000/2500 to go), and push any flop.

As for now - call - its too late to wonder.

Fuzzbox,

Why raise so much preflop?
Are you happy to get table to fold and you get 900 in chips?
Or are you trying to takeout all draws,small pairs etc to isolate with maybe KK,QQ,JJ or AK? Surely 5BBs would takeout most crap?

Ray

Ste05

Raise more Pre-Flop, (Ace-Face - the reasons = UTG obviously has a hand he likes and and he's never folding for another 2BB's seeing as he's getting lovely odds now. When he calls, you are pretty much guaranteed everyone else will call too. Therefore you have to play a big Pot OOP, with multiple Villains. So you need to charge them more.)

As it played out you have to call. I assume you lose, hence the post. But again next time raise more Pre-Flop.

eggie

Get your chips in there. If he does have a set then tough cookies, possible he hasnt. Either way you have too much to lose by folding and everything to gain if ya win. Too committed at this stage of the tourney to fold IMO. If he has a hand that beats ya your on the rail, but at least he'll be weary of calling ya in future meetings with marginal hands knowing ya dont lay down every time to a re-raise.

connie147

Ste05 wrote:

Raise more Pre-Flop, (Ace-Face - the reasons = UTG obviously has a hand he likes and and he's never folding for another 2BB's seeing as he's getting lovely odds now. When he calls, you are pretty much guaranteed everyone else will call too. Therefore you have to play a big Pot OOP, with multiple Villains. So you need to charge them more.)

As it played out you have to call. I assume you lose, hence the post. But again next time raise more Pre-Flop.

Yes Ste,I did call and yes I did lose to a set of 5,s.I knew straight away that i didnt raise enough pre-flop.really I was hoping the small blind had K-Q or J-Q which was a possibility cause he was always going to call once the others did.I had half my stack in and I couldnt imagine folding to a reraise in that situation.Only reason i posted it up is I was chatting with Dave afterwards and he thought I could have put it down.I didnt think so and I wanted some opinions.

Daithio

I think the raise is fine. Making it 1300 when blinds are 150-300 is a pretty stiff raise.

NickyOD

Daithio wrote:

I think the raise is fine. Making it 1300 when blinds are 150-300 is a pretty stiff raise.

Normally I would agree but considering how loose the table was, and connie knew this, I think he has to raise more. He really only wants one caller. Connie had an aggressive table image and was making the same raises out of position without big pairs. As it stands the hand may have played out the same but I think on a loose table andthing less than 1500 in an underraise in this spot. I really like making it 2K in here if your table is loose and you have an aggressive table image.

fuzzbox

Daithio wrote:

I think the raise is fine. Making it 1300 when blinds are 150-300 is a pretty stiff raise.

Agreed - and opening the action to 1300 would be great.
Or making it 1300 after one limper would be ok too.

But here - we have four players in the pot, and we are out of position. And 1200 chips are out there, which represent about 15% of our stack. We dont want them all to call, and we know that we are giving good implied odds, because our hand is strong, so we want to try to make them pay to outdraw us.

I like making it 2000 here. If they all fold, then we have increased our stack by 15%. Good for us.

If we dont make it big enough, then the first person calls, now the next person has to call 1000 to win 3200 ..... and if HE calls ... then the next person has to call 1000 to win 4200. It has a snowball effect really.

connie147

NickyOD wrote:

Normally I would agree but considering how loose the table was, and connie knew this, I think he has to raise more. He really only wants one caller. Connie had an aggressive table image and was making the same raises out of position without big pairs. As it stands the hand may have played out the same but I think on a loose table andthing less than 1500 in an underraise in this spot. I really like making it 2K in here if your table is loose and you have an aggressive table image.

Nicky,youve already stated in another post that this was a tough aggressive table and I agree,I felt there was some great poker being played actually,
And as soon as I got dumped I realised straight away that my raise was too small.But that is the beauty of hindsight.I was hoping to keep one player in the pot and I paid the price for it. Guilty as charged!! lol

connie147

fuzzbox wrote:

Agreed - and opening the action to 1300 would be great.
Or making it 1300 after one limper would be ok too.

But here - we have four players in the pot, and we are out of position. And 1200 chips are out there, which represent about 15% of our stack. We dont want them all to call, and we know that we are giving good implied odds, because our hand is strong, so we want to try to make them pay to outdraw us.

I like making it 2000 here. If they all fold, then we have increased our stack by 15%. Good for us.

If we dont make it big enough, then the first person calls, now the next person has to call 1000 to win 3200 ..... and if HE calls ... then the next person has to call 1000 to win 4200. It has a snowball effect really.

Thats exactly what happened Fuzz,and it just goes to show that one mistake is all it takes.Once utg called ,everyone got value thereafter.I wanted to make it look like I was just raising because they had just limped in so they mightnt put me on such a big hand.(and of course if an ace came on the flop we wouldnt be discussing this at all.)
But i Know what my mistake was,I just wanted confirmation that I was right to throw in the rest of my chips after the reraise.

ZZR1100

i still dont think you were right to throw in your chips after the allin reraise.you had 4700 left and the only hand you were beating was KQ or a move.I think your biggest mistake besides the small raise preflop was not to think about it.It was Allin call.I have AA.Hope this gets u tilting for tonights game