C Haughey

darkman2

The man himself..... My question is was he actually a good leader behind the corruption. He did do some good things and I kinda feel just a tad sorry fror him now:rolleyes: (awaits onslaught:( )

MrJoeSoap

More of a politics thread so is it not? Why do you feel sorry for him?

darkman2

MrJoeSoap wrote:

More of a politics thread so is it not? Why do you feel sorry for him?

No its a genuine question to the masses on AH:) I dunno why I feel sry for him. He has been destroyed really and he is very old now. :rolleyes: Also I think he did do some good things. The IFSC and cutting 'rates' for example.

Sleepy

Doing one or two good things while lining his own pockets does not a good leader make. If any man deserves prostate cancer, he does.

*Tripper*

That is the most ****ing discraceful thing i've ever heard here. That has to deserve a banning.

darkman2

*Tripper* wrote:

That is the most ****ing discraceful thing i've ever heard here. That has to deserve a banning.

I agree.

johnnyrotten

Sleepy wrote:

Doing one or two good things while lining his own pockets does not a good leader make. If any man deserves prostate cancer, he does.

Shame on you!

Esel

darkman2 wrote:

No its a genuine question to the masses on AH:) I dunno why I feel sry for him. He has been destroyed really and he is very old now. :rolleyes: Also I think he did do some good things. The IFSC and cutting 'rates' for example.

Ah the poor man. Destroyed? €40m for his land (minus house and associated gardens etc) in Kinsealy recently.

What about all the schools, hospitals etc. etc. that could have been built with the tax he and others in the culture he engendered evaded paying? What about all the people who died prematurely due to the absence of a proper health service? All the children who were deprived of a good education? The brain drain the country was forced to endure through the eighties? etc. etc.

He'd still be a hero if Ben Dunne had not gone on a coke binge and triggered all the strife in the Dunne clan, during which his vast gifts to CJ were exposed.

He's been 'dying' for 11 years now of prostate cancer. Guinness Book of Records tbh.

I know a man of 92 who has had prostate cancer for years. His doctor told him he would die with it, not from it.

[edit] spelling

darkman2

esel wrote:

Ah the poor man. Destroyed? €40m for his land (minus house and associated gardens etc) in Kinsealy recently.

What about all the schools, hospitals etc. etc. that could have been built with the tax he and others in the culture he engendered evaded paying? What about all the people who died prematurely due to the absence of a proper health service? All the children who were deprived of a good education? The brain drain the country was forced to endure through the eighties? etc. etc.

He'd still be a hero if Ben Dunne had not gone on a coke binge and triggered all the strife in the Dunne clan, during which his vast gifts to CJ were exposed.

He's been 'dying' for 11 years now of prostate cancer. Guinness Book of Records tbh.

I know a man of 92 who has had prostate cancer for years. His doctor told him he would die with it, not from it.

[edit] spelling

Yes I agree with everything youve said but in fairness poverty breeds corruption. That dosnt make it right but maybe ppl should also start pointing the finger equally at the other beauties around him at the time, none of which wil spend a week in prison:mad:

junkyard

He was in politics for his own good and was rotten to the core, like most politicians.:mad:

netwhizkid

Sleepy wrote:

Doing one or two good things while lining his own pockets does not a good leader make. If any man deserves prostate cancer, he does.

He He, CJ Haughey deserves much worse than Cancer. Capital Punishement is more in order.

The_Minister

He brought in free public transport for pensioners, which was good.

Macker

Firespinner wrote:

He brought in free public transport for pensioners, which was good.

Which was payed for by the tax payer not from his Charvet shirt fund

Cork

Sleepy wrote:

Doing one or two good things while lining his own pockets does not a good leader make. If any man deserves prostate cancer, he does.

This is a disgraceful comment.

The state has spnt millions investigating payments to politicians & not one decision made by CJH has been linked to a payment.

He started socail partnership. He was responsible for the IFSC, Temple Bar, doing up Government buildings etc.

No other modern Day politician has achieved as much. Look at Enda Kenny, Rabbit, Adams, Ahern?

DublinWriter

darkman2 wrote:

The man himself..... My question is was he actually a good leader behind the corruption. He did do some good things and I kinda feel just a tad sorry fror him now:rolleyes: (awaits onslaught:( )

Everyone's knee-jerk reaction is always 'gangster' when it comes to assessing CJH, but I watched the RTE multi-part documentary on him recently and a few things impressed me.

Firstly, he graduated with a BA and qualified both as a Barrister and Chartered Accountant by his late 20's. No mean feat, especially in the light of the near-poverty in which his fatherless family went through.

Secondly, he detested the whole Civil Service 'CYA' mentality and was quite a dynamic Minister in his career and could usually cut through several layers of bullsh*t and redtape to get things done.

Thirdly, he was pretty far sighted in establishing the IFSC, a scheme that provided a blue-print for attracting the likes of Microsoft and Intel over later on.

However, he played both party poltics and parish pump (accidently typed pimp first time, very Freudian!) to the detriment of the greater good of the nation, opposing FG's Family Planning bill and playing to the Hinterland.

Regarding the whole Charvet shirts deal, you know what? I'd rather be done out of a few thousand for a couple of shirts than hundreds of million on failed e-voting and payroll systems.

But as Enoch Powell said, all poltical careers end in failure, and Charlie was no exception to the rule.

stevenmu

esel wrote:

What about all the schools, hospitals etc. etc. that could have been built with the tax he and others in the culture he engendered evaded paying?

To be fair the whole "celtic tiger economy" is largely thanks to his policies. If you think the health, education etc systems are bad now with it, imagine how much worse things would be without it.

That's no excuse for the corruption he is alledged to have been involved in, but in response to the OPs question, yes, I think he was a good leader behind the (alledged) corruption.

casanova_kid

Lining your own pocket while the rest of Ireland is screwed, He deserves no sympathy from the public.

Zebra3

Sleepy wrote:

Doing one or two good things while lining his own pockets does not a good leader make. If any man deserves prostate cancer, he does.

Well said.

darkman2

stevenmu wrote:

To be fair the whole "celtic tiger economy" is largely thanks to his policies. If you think the health, education etc systems are bad now with it, imagine how much worse things would be without it.

That's no excuse for the corruption he is alledged to have been involved in, but in response to the OPs question, yes, I think he was a good leader behind the (alledged) corruption.

I couldnt agree more with that tbh. Despite the criminality he was undoubtedly a man with great vision and foresight.:)

rockflanders

Does he deserve his state funeral then?

darkman2

rockflanders wrote:

Does he deserve his state funeral then?

Well, thats an issue alright. Personally protocol demands it, he was Taoiseach. Now whether Bertie will attend is another question:rolleyes:


I would also like to add that Bertie was Finance minister in the haughey era. He must know something, surely:rolleyes:

Atrocity

He was no rapist or anything, so I don't understand why people would hate him. Having said that, I don't like him. He was a crooked bastard and not a trustworthy man. The godfather of corruption in Ireland. It really annoys me, his type. His position was to serve the people but he still managed to make an extremely good living from dirty money. He still has such a huge following in Ireland, a lot of older people I know look back on him with affection and take pity on him the way he is portrayed in the media. But he never did time for his crimes, he has retired in peace and quiet and he certainly doesn't deserve any affection. As I said, his position was to serve the people in their best interest. Even if he did do a lot of good work, he did a lot of bad work too and we deserve someone who works tirelessly to make the best of the country, without expecting kickbacks and stealing from the country. He was paid a generous wage to do his job and had no right to build his life with our money.

Esel

stevenmu wrote:

To be fair the whole "celtic tiger economy" is largely thanks to his policies. If you think the health, education etc systems are bad now with it, imagine how much worse things would be without it.

That's no excuse for the corruption he is alledged to have been involved in, but in response to the OPs question, yes, I think he was a good leader behind the (alledged) corruption.

So, a few questions:

Did he or did he not have the beneficial ownership of the lands that Beaumont Hospital are built on before the project became public?

If so, where did he get the funds to gain such ownership?

Was he Minister of Health around the time he did so (if he did so)?

How much profit was realised when these lands were purchased by the State?

Where did he get the funds to buy Abbeyville, which was recently sold for €40m - minus the house and certain land?

What other nefarious deals, if any, did he do?

"If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas." Spare me the breast-beating please.

MrJoeSoap

Atrocity wrote:

He was no rapist or anything, so I don't understand why people would hate him.

You don't have to rape or physically hurt people for them to hate you. The man took advantage of a position he was elected to by the public, for his own personal financial advancement. I'm too young to know much about the exact details of his goings-on, but I'd imagine thats where the "hatred" stems from.

4Xcut

Sleepy wrote:

If any man deserves prostate cancer, he does.

Did you actually just say that the man deserves cancer?

Capt'n Midnight

darkman2 wrote:

The man himself..... My question is was he actually a good leader behind the corruption. He did do some good things and I kinda feel just a tad sorry fror him now:rolleyes: (awaits onslaught:( )

He has done to FF what Maggie did to the Tories. Made the party in to a byword for corruption, and tollerance of such.

When in opposition on one occasion he opposed some bill because "the function of opposition is to oppose". CBA digging up the quote but it was a case of trying to score points over needed leglislation that there was no other reason to impede.

In Ireland you could define a statesman as someone who looks beyond the next election. Even on that limited definition he don't rate.

I've heard a story about A german owned land around Kinseally. He tried to get planning permission. He was told "YOU will never get planning permission." So was more or less forced to Haughy who did.

The ESB windmill on his private island. ( private island - think about how he got it)

Look at Garda statistics and you'll see that MOST crimes go unsolved. To me this means that a criminal who is found guilty of more than one crime has almost certainly comitted others that are undetected.

He was a gun-runner, and IMHO personal profit was a major factor.

He took money out of Brian Lenihans liver transplant fund. Whatever about shafting the public "Health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped", doing it to your own is really low even by any standards.

stevenmu wrote:

To be fair the whole "celtic tiger economy" is largely thanks to his policies. If you think the health, education etc systems are bad now with it, imagine how much worse things would be without it.

a/ "Health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped"
b/ Because of their financial policies we lost a decade and a much of a generation - most of the NRA infrastrcuture could have been build them for a tiny fraction of the price, providing employment and the celtic tiger would have paid for it. Instead we got the M50 toll bridge and people spending the equlivant of a day per week sitting in cars.

Cork

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Instead we got the M50 toll bridge and people spending the equlivant of a day per week sitting in cars.

CJH is not responsible for people commuting to work.

He was responsible for the IFSC, Temple Bar, social Partnership, Government Buildings etc.

Compare this to the list of Achievements of say Enda Kenny?

CJH should have not taken money from individuals. TDs of many other political partys did likewise.

Did Garret Fitzgerald get loans written off as well?

Garret Fitzgerald doubled the National Debt during the 1980's.

I think Haughy achieved much that said - he had his faults.

dbnavan

Cork wrote:

CJH is not responsible for people commuting to work.

He was responsible for the IFSC, Temple Bar, social Partnership, Government Buildings etc.

Compare this to the list of Achievements of say Enda Kenny?

CJH should have not taken money from individuals. TDs of many other political partys did likewise.

Did Garret Fitzgerald get loans written off as well?

Garret Fitzgerald doubled the National Debt during the 1980's.

I think Haughy achieved much that said - he had his faults.

How can you compare his achievments to enda kenny, since he is only the leader of the opposition for the last 4 years, maybe when FG actually get into power, you can compare them!

Cork

casanova_kid wrote:

Lining your own pocket while the rest of Ireland is screwed, He deserves no sympathy from the public.

How was the rest of Ireland is screwed?

CJH took donations from individuals such as Dunne. Many politicians did the same.

Yet Haughy brought in Social Partnership, Free Travel For Oaps, Succession Act, Temple Bar, Knock Airport, Did up Government Buildings, etc.

CJH should not have taken private donations. Granted.

But the guy was one of this country's best politicians.

Cork

dbnavan wrote:

How can you compare his achievments to enda kenny, since he is only the leader of the opposition for the last 4 years, maybe when FG actually get into power, you can compare them!

Enda Kenny served as Minister for Tourism and Trade (1994–1997).

When Haughy was Minister - He brought in the Succeesion Act, Free Transport to Oaps etc.

What are Kennys achievements?

I am not singling out Kenny but to highlight the achievements of CJH.

Hagar

We should probably erect a big statue in his honour. Anyone got a 20ft bronze sh1t?

junkyard

No, but I'd sat there's an EU grant available.:)

Esel

Cork wrote:

How was the rest of Ireland is screwed?

See my post on page 1 of this thread!

Cork

CJH has settled his taxes. He was not in power for the majority of the 80's. That was a FG/Labour government that doubled the national debt.

CJH's biggest achievement was to turn this country around.

He introduced social partnership & since then this country has enjoyed employment.

Sure, he has had failings.

But I believe he has been more positive than negative.

We should probably erect a big statue

Dingle (An Daingean) have beat us to it.

Esel

Cork wrote:

CJH has settled his taxes. He was not in power for the majority of the 80's. That was a FG/Labour government that doubled the national debt.

CJH's biggest achievement was to turn this country around.

He introduced social partnership & since then this country has enjoyed employment.

Sure, he has had failings.

But I believe he has been more positive than negative.


Dingle (An Daingean) have beat us to it.

Where can I get a pair of those rose-tinted glasses? They seem to do a good job at keeping reality at bay.:rolleyes:

Cork

esel wrote:

Where can I get a pair of those rose-tinted glasses? They seem to do a good job at keeping reality at bay.:rolleyes:

Reality is that the tribunrerals did not proove that Haughy did favours for one brown cent of monies he got.

Such donations were wrong. That said, he was not the only TD in reciept of donations from individuals.

Im no fan of CJ but in fairness the woman of the keegans that lost her two kids in the stardust did say he was the only politician that ever made time for them to this day and did call a tribunal of investigation the day after the tragedy.

casanova_kid

Cork wrote:

How was the rest of Ireland is screwed?

CJH took donations from individuals such as Dunne. Many politicians did the same.

Yet Haughy brought in Social Partnership, Free Travel For Oaps, Succession Act, Temple Bar, Knock Airport, Did up Government Buildings, etc.

CJH should not have taken private donations. Granted.

But the guy was one of this country's best politicians.

Wasn't actually around myself, but i heard Irealnd was pretty **** back then. Emigration and all that.

Hagar

Deleted User wrote:

Im no fan of CJ but in fairness the woman of the keegans that lost her two kids in the stardust did say he was the only politician that ever made time for them to this day and did call a tribunal of investigation the day after the tragedy.

What was the outcome? And what happened to the Stardust owner, Mr Butterly?

Butterly also happens to be name of one of the biggest growers around the North County Dublin area which was then a Fianna Fail stronghold.
But there's no implied connection there of course.:rolleyes:

is_that_so

I think a lot of what is being spewed here is known as "revisionism". As I posted elsewhere go and read about the man (or see DublinWriter's post) and what he did, especially what was done long before many posters here were even dreamt of.
What will haunt him more than any ill feelings or abuse here is the fact that his legacy has been destroyed by his own corruption. TBH some of the comments here say more about what the posters themelves represent.

If you have so much of a need to vent your spleen on an 80 year old man, ask yourself where your priorities in life are.

He did some good things, a lot of bad things and he will be dead sooner rather than later.
He killed no-one , committed no appalling crimes but was a very corrupt man.

FIN

junkyard

To get to be the biggest fish the trick is not to get caught. I think in fairness Haughey got off very lightly for his sins considering he got so much money for nothing, better men have been sent to jail for a long time for less.

Capt'n Midnight

is_that_so wrote:

If you have so much of a need to vent your spleen on an 80 year old man, ask yourself where your priorities in life are.

He did some good things, a lot of bad things and he will be dead sooner rather than later.
He killed no-one , committed no appalling crimes but was a very corrupt man.

FIN

He killed no one, just like no-one has been killed in the current health crisis. IIRC a human life is worth €1 million to the bean counters as an amount of money to spend to prevent a death. On that basis the money wasted by FF in the Haughy... Also 1979 driver license amnesty, it's clear that the standards of drivers and traffic law enforcement has something to do with our appaling death rate. And the wonderful N-road imporvements, like the one in Mayo that stoped at the edge of Mr Flynns constituency, how many deaths have been caused by diversion of resources in like manner ?

When Poland was invaded by the Russians in 1939 something like 22,000 Polish officers were killed. Far less were killed in the Nuremberg Trials, though Stalin had recomended executing over 50,000 Germans as an example. I've wondered if Yugoslavia would have been any different had any of the perpretrators of the killings actually feared justice. - Unless there is some disincentive to being dishonest we can only expect more of this sort of thing. Going after an 80 year old is not a matter of justice it's about prevention too.

Just because you don't hear about corruption don't mean it ain't happening now. Most of what happened in the past was only revealled far too late.

On another note - he didn't declare a holiday after the Rumania match in the world cup, when the country more or less shut down anyway, but did borrow a lot of stuff from the national museum around the same time for personal use.

Esel

Let us also acknowledge that Adolf Hitler did a lot of good things for Germany. He had the autobahns built, he restored national pride etc. This is in no way to imply any similarity between Hitler and Haughey, just to point out that there are always pros and cons to every situation.

Maybe it's the difference between the words 'implicit' and 'explicit'. Not sure if Hitler explicitly killed anyone (apart from during his service in the First World War). Words he spoke; orders he gave on the other hand....

How many other corrupt people (not only politicians) are there here who luckily do not have a Ben Dunne in the wings waiting to bring down the house of cards? Circles within Golden Circles within . . . . ad nauseam.

Where is the 'vomiting' smilie when you need it?

The_Minister

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

He was a gun-runner,

Please explain.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

He took money out of Brian Lenihans liver transplant fund. Whatever about shafting the public "Health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped", doing it to your own is really low even by any standards.

Has that been proven?

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

b/ Because of their financial policies we lost a decade and a much of a generation - most of the NRA infrastrcuture could have been build them for a tiny fraction of the price, providing employment and the celtic tiger would have paid for it. Instead we got the M50 toll bridge and people spending the equlivant of a day per week sitting in cars.

We didn't have the f*cking money to build them .

Esel

Firespinner wrote:

Please explain.


Has that been proven?

We didn't have the f*cking money to build them .

1. Google 'Arms Trial'.

2. Proven - as in 'in a court of law' - maybe not. Accepted as fact - yes.

3. We (the people aka the State) didn't have the money (aka the tax revenue) - because there was such rampant, condoned tax evasion happening.

Hagar

Hagar wrote:

What was the outcome? And what happened to the Stardust owner, Mr Butterly?

Butterly also happens to be name of one of the biggest growers around the North County Dublin area which was then a Fianna Fail stronghold.
But there's no implied connection there of course.:rolleyes:

I understand what your saying that cj and butterly may have been scratching each others backs and maybe thats true i honestly dont know but the outcome of the whole tragic business was none of haugheys doing.

haughey you could see from the archive footage was genuinely distraught by the whole tragedy and as far as im concerned he did go by the book in trying to investigate the matter. I know i probably sound like a haugheys PR man but i like to call a spade a spade. I dont like the way rte presented the documentary of him making him out to be some sort of powerful leader. Personally i never liked the look of him. Haughey once said tighten your belts whilst he loosened his own.

I just think he done more for them families then a certain mr smug smiley face himself who is from the north circular rd nearby or there and there abouts am i right?


on the subject of EB i would like nothing more then to see him brought to justice over that tragedy and personally if he was to open his business in my village in co tipperary i wouldnt take stuff for nothing from him but thats another topic for another day

Sleepy

4Xcut wrote:

Did you actually just say that the man deserves cancer?

Yes. Yes I did.

DublinWriter

casanova_kid wrote:

Lining your own pocket while the rest of Ireland is screwed, He deserves no sympathy from the public.

If so, neither do the rest of us!

meditraitor

Cork wrote:

CJH is not responsible for people commuting to work. .

Thats right, but the problems with our transport network come from the fact that he did not invest in public transport therefore increasing the pressure on our roads due to an increase in personal transport.

Cork wrote:

He was responsible for the IFSC, Temple Bar, social Partnership, Government Buildings etc..

The Idea's for the IFSC and temple bar were not FF Idea's! Similiar measures to the IFSC(centralised financial hubs) and temple bar(investment in tourist centre's within city) had been in use in most other major european cities for 10-20 years before they were introduced into dublin, if anything FF were a bit slow on the uptake.

Cork wrote:

Compare this to the list of Achievements of say Enda Kenny?.

Was he taoisach at any stage?

Cork wrote:

CJH should have not taken money from individuals. TDs of many other political partys did likewise..

He was comitting crimes, and he was the leader of our government, nuff said

Cork wrote:

I think Haughy achieved much that said - he had his faults.

He achieved little and had many faults,

DublinWriter

meditraitor wrote:

The Idea's for the IFSC and temple bar were not FF Idea's! Similiar measures to the IFSC(centralised financial hubs) and temple bar(investment in tourist centre's within city) had been in use in most other major european cities for 10-20 years before they were introduced into dublin, if anything FF were a bit slow on the uptake.

Wrong. Where and when? Examples on a postcard please.

I can't believe I'm defending CJH *buries head in hands*

DublinWriter

DublinWriter wrote:

Wrong. Where and when? Examples on a postcard please.

Have to echo that. I'm sure the knowledge that the IFSC concept was common everywhere was news to the international companies that have moved billions and billions through there in the past 15 years... What other EU countries had an equivalent?