A Question to believers of the living God.

JimiTime

Do all of you believe, that all Humans are destined for, Heaven, Hell or Purgatory? or do any of you believe that there will be a day of Judgement followed by a paradise earth?

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote:

Do all of you believe, that all Humans are destined for, Heaven, Hell or Purgatory? or do any of you believe that there will be a day of Judgement followed by a paradise earth?

All humans are destined for Heaven or Hell. No such thing as Purgatory.

A day of Judgement (Rev 20:11-15), where the dead are judged. Christians are already in Heaven.

A paradise earth: Rev 21:1 A new Heaven as well. A place where God is, in all His glory, and where those who have accepted His gift will be also.

JimiTime

OK, I believe in The Living God. I believe that he gave his only begotten son, (Jesus), as a ransom sacrafice for Adams Sin (One perfect man for another). I believe that he created Lucifer, who was good but who abused the gift of free will and turned on him and along with his followers were cast from heaven. Now to say that Lucifer (Satan, father of the lie) has now a purpose in Gods order, does not sit right. If you say that the wicked go to Hell, Satan now has a use? So the ultimate evil, is being used by God (All loving God) to punish the wicked for all eternity?

Akrasia

JimiTime wrote:

OK, I believe in The Living God. I believe that he gave his only begotten son, (Jesus), as a ransom sacrafice for Adams Sin (One perfect man for another). I believe that he created Lucifer, who was good but who abused the gift of free will and turned on him and along with his followers were cast from heaven. Now to say that Lucifer (Satan, father of the lie) has now a purpose in Gods order, does not sit right. If you say that the wicked go to Hell, Satan now has a use? So the ultimate evil, is being used by God (All loving God) to punish the wicked for all eternity?

that's an interesting point.

Was the creation of Satan part of Gods plan all along?

JimiTime

Akrasia wrote:

Was the creation of Satan part of Gods plan all along?

I think a belief in Hell as a place of fiery torment would suggest this. But Satan having a place in Gods order is just not true. Which leads me to say that hell, as in a fiery place where the wicked are tormented does not exist! In knowing God, can you truly say that The God of Love and Mercy, would watch his creations get tormented for eternity, In knowing God I know he wouldn't do this. Although his Judgement will destroy the Wicked, he will not put them through an eternity of suffering!! Sodom and Gomorah, The great flood. These are examples of Gods Judgement. Do they have any resemblance to Hellfire??

Sapien

JimiTime wrote:

can you truly say that The God of Love and Mercy, would watch his creations get tormented... [in] ... Sodom and Gomorah, The great flood[?]

For more examples of the confused nature of this God of Wuv and Mercy.

JimiTime wrote:

These are examples of Gods Judgement. Do they have any resemblance to Hellfire??

Erm...

panda100

This is one thing I just have huge problems with as a catholic.When I was in medjugorie I asked a lot about purgatory cos as a catholic it's something I should believe in ,but I find it impossible to accept.In medj I was told that the way to get out of purgotary was by people on earth praying for you but this strikes me as unfair.
In medjugorie,where our lady is appearing(even though I am dubious).Apparently our Lady brought one of the girls she was appearing to,viska, to heaven,hell and purgatory.Apparently,heaven was this beautiful place it was just indescriable.Purgatory was this cold damp place filled with a huge fog.You couldnt see anything but could sense there was other people around you.Then there was hell which was the usual fires etc.
To be honest when she was describing this,it really sacred me and I cant see what benefit this is from us humans knowing this.

robindch

> When I was in medjugorie I asked a lot about purgatory cos as a
> catholic it's something I should believe in

Good on ya for asking, but the answer you received is understandably vague, given what I believe is the complete confusion which surrounds that particular bit of catholic dogma. I seem to remember reading somewhere that purgatory was discontinued a few years back, or maybe it was that most of the entry conditions were changed and that very few people were eligible these days. Whatever, I think that as a threat, it doesn't seem to be talked about much by the chaps in the Vatican any more. If anybody knows any more about this peculiar place, do let me know...

> hell which was the usual fires etc. [...] when she was describing this, it
> really sacred me and I cant see what benefit this is from us humans
> knowing this.

The sociological benefit is that it scares the bejesus out of you and needs the church's help to "protect" you from the frightful threat that it's just described...

JimiTime

Sapien wrote:

For more examples of the confused nature of this God of Wuv and Mercy.



Erm...

If you are implying that it is contradictory to destroy the Wicked and yet have love and mercy, you are most certainly mistaken. God informed Lot to get himself and his family out of Sodom and gomorrah before it was destroyed, as he was deemed not deserving of the judgement. You cannot argue with human values and ethics in relation to God. In this I mean, that God cannot be hoodwinked, he can read the hearts of everyone and if he deems you wicked, you are wicked. There is no lawyer to loophole you out. His Judgement is true, and Just. If you do not trust his judgement, that is a completely different arguement.
If you are saying that sodom and gomorrah and the great flood are similar to the hell of fiery torment, this is logically completely wrong, as those who were destroyed in those incidents were just that, 'destroyed'. A belief in Hellfire means that God allows you to be tortured for eternity, with no hope of salvation. A huge difference!

panda100

TBH I cant see how the catholic church can be taken seriously if they dont preach about purgatory anymore.We as Catholics should be told about these things if priesets,the pope etc really think it exists otherwise they are just shielding us from things they think we dont want to hear.I hate this idea of a 'pic in mix' religon.The fact that I dont believe in purgatory mean that I cannot consider myself a catholic because it is one of the teachings of the church.You just cant pick and choose what you believe in and still call yourself a christian/catholic.

Anyway this is what the visionaries in medjugorie have seen in purgotary:

Medjugorje visionary Vicka tell us that Purgatory is a very big space and in appearance is much like a misty gray fog that looks like ashes. There people are weeping, moaning, trembling in what seems like terrible suffering. Our lady told Vicka, "These people need your prayers, especially the ones who have no one to pray for them." Vicka adds that this is why we have to pray so much for these poor souls; they desperately need our prayers to go from Purgatory to Heaven.
Medjugorje visionary Mirjana tells us that in Purgatory there are several levels. The more you pray on earth, the higher your level in Purgatory will be. The lowest level is closest to Hell where the suffering is the most intense. The highest level is closest to Heaven and there the sufferings are the least. Mirjana adds that, our lady asked for prayers for the souls in Purgatory, as they are helpless to pray for themselves. Through prayer, Marijana tells us we on earth can do much to help them. The Blessed Mother also told Mirjana that when souls leave Purgatory and go to Heaven, most go on Christmas Day.

Medjugorje visionary Ivan has also seen Purgatory, he tell us that the Blessed Mother told him that those who go to Purgatory are those who prayed and believed only occasionally, they were filled with doubt that they were not certain that God exists. They did not know how to pray on earth, or if they did know how, they did not pray.

And this is the RC's churchs teaching of purgatory,so even though priests dont talk about it anymore,it still should be one of our beliefs as a catholic.
II. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:


'As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come.' From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

JimiTime

Panda100: I'm not trying to be contentional, but do you have faith in The Living God or The Catholic Church? With Faith in God, you will not be rumbled when an organisation is found to be at fault, if your faith is in a human organisation, you will encounter problems? do you disagree?

panda100

JimiTime wrote:

Panda100: I'm not trying to be contentional, but do you have faith in The Living God or The Catholic Church? With Faith in God, you will not be rumbled when an organisation is found to be at fault, if your faith is in a human organisation, you will encounter problems? do you disagree?

yep I agree-well I think Im like a lot of people in Irealnd.I have absolute faith in a God or some sort of higher being.I believe in a lot of stuff preached by the rc church-jesus,mary,mass etc.I have a lot of faith in an afterlife but I dont know if I truley believe in a hell,heaven and purgatory.Im the sort of person who needs to know a bit about something to believe in it.So my previous post was to give clarity to those who didnt really understand what purgatory was as I say the description that the visionaries gave would be maybe quite accurate.
So to your original question,I dont believe that there is a segregated heaven,hell and purgatory.I think we will go on living like we do on earth cept that money and everything that makes our world 'human' is taken out of the equation.So we live prehistorically,no buildings etc and its just a nice chilled world.I know that might sound naive to a lot of people but that really is my idea or what an afterlife is.

JimiTime

panda100 wrote:

.
So to your original question,I dont believe that there is a segregated heaven,hell and purgatory.I think we will go on living like we do on earth cept that money and everything that makes our world 'human' is taken out of the equation.So we live prehistorically,no buildings etc and its just a nice chilled world.I know that might sound naive to a lot of people but that really is my idea or what an afterlife is.

May I just say whole heartedly, that this is the furthest thing from Naive! You are more enlightened than you give yourself credit for. I raise a point I have already raised, looking at scripture as rules regulations proofs etc. this does not give enlightenment. It should be a way of getting to know God. In knowing God all the mis-interpretations etc, are not an issue anymore, for in Knowing him you know his will and his personality.
Going back to your point about a paradise earth, it begs the question. If we are just going to be going to the spirit realm anyway, why did God create humaity? Why did he not just create us as angels in the first place? God has a purpose for 'Humanity', you are on the right path!!!

Asiaprod

panda100 wrote:

So we live prehistorically,no buildings etc and its just a nice chilled world.I know that might sound naive to a lot of people but that really is my idea or what an afterlife is.

JimiTime wrote:

In knowing God all the mis-interpretations etc, are not an issue anymore, for in Knowing him you know his will and his personality.

Just for the record, what does God gain from this Utopia you are both painting?

Sean7

Ever wonder why God bothers? Why would someone who is all-loving judge anyone, why not bring us all to heaven? Why even have life in the universe in the first place? why not have all creation in heaven to begin with? Why test us? If everyone started in heaven we'd all be happy and have no need to be fearful, violent or greedy because we'd have everything we need and nothing to fear. And Why would an omnipitent God allow Lucifer to even start a war in heaven, unless it wanted one. Why should Lucifer even bother try take over heaven over something as small as pride or greed(depending which story of his fall you hear) when surely any creature you saw the true face of god and heard its voice would surely be more than happy to serve the creator?

Asiaprod

Sean7 wrote:

Ever wonder why God bothers? Why would someone who is all-loving judge anyone, why not bring us all to heaven?

You know, you have raised some of the best points I have yet seen on this board.

JimiTime

Asiaprod wrote:

Just for the record, what does God gain from this Utopia you are both painting?

Gain Why would you ask a question, concluding that god acts in selfishness?

JimiTime

Sean7 wrote:

Ever wonder why God bothers? Why would someone who is all-loving judge anyone, why not bring us all to heaven? Why even have life in the universe in the first place? why not have all creation in heaven to begin with? Why test us? If everyone started in heaven we'd all be happy and have no need to be fearful, violent or greedy because we'd have everything we need and nothing to fear. And Why would an omnipitent God allow Lucifer to even start a war in heaven, unless it wanted one. Why should Lucifer even bother try take over heaven over something as small as pride or greed(depending which story of his fall you hear) when surely any creature you saw the true face of god and heard its voice would surely be more than happy to serve the creator?

Ah yes. And is it truly Free will if there are consequences to misuse of it, etc. etc. The Jews were witnesses to Christ, his love, and tangiably his miricles, but so many still sent him to his death. Free Will allows decision making. As small as 'pride and greed'?? These 'small' things have caused this world more suffering than anything else I care to mention!! And to conclude, there was no 'War' in heaven. Merely Satan and his followers being cast out!
Are you coming from an Atheist perspective? or is it more from a 'I think Satan is mis-understood' type stance?

panda100

Sean7 wrote:

Ever wonder why God bothers? Why would someone who is all-loving judge anyone, why not bring us all to heaven? Why even have life in the universe in the first place? why not have all creation in heaven to begin with? Why test us? If everyone started in heaven we'd all be happy and have no need to be fearful, violent or greedy because we'd have everything we need and nothing to fear. And Why would an omnipitent God allow Lucifer to even start a war in heaven, unless it wanted one. Why should Lucifer even bother try take over heaven over something as small as pride or greed(depending which story of his fall you hear) when surely any creature you saw the true face of god and heard its voice would surely be more than happy to serve the creator?

Dont you think that we need to experience bad feelings such as violence,fearfulness and sorrow etc in order to feel happy.If we lived in this great heaven like place all the time I dont think we would ever appreciate when we are truley happy.
In creating Lucifer,God created all the bad things that went with him,such as greed etc.I just think if everything was great in the world constantly we would take for granted happinness.We need to feel the lows of emotions in order to experience the highs.

JimiTime

panda100 wrote:

In creating Lucifer,God created all the bad things that went with him,such as greed etc..

Are you saying that that God created Satan with this purpose in mind?

Sean7

panda100 wrote:

Dont you think that we need to experience bad feelings such as violence,fearfulness and sorrow etc in order to feel happy.If we lived in this great heaven like place all the time I dont think we would ever appreciate when we are truley happy.
In creating Lucifer,God created all the bad things that went with him,such as greed etc.I just think if everything was great in the world constantly we would take for granted happinness.We need to feel the lows of emotions in order to experience the highs.

But isn't that god's fault? If it made us then surely it could make us as it saw fit. Constant overwhelming joy in God's presence must hard to grow tired. Would that mean that when we die and have "eternal life" we would one day grow bored of heaven? Maybe that's what happened to Satan, he got bored and felt like starting a fight. Also surely experience of all the bad things that happen on earth would be ours only comparison to the greatness of heaven which is probably very different and hard to compare to earth. Maybe we would even keep expect things to eventually go wrong for us even though they weren't going to.

JimiTime

Sean7 wrote:

But isn't that god's fault? If it made us then surely it could make us as it saw fit. Constant overwhelming joy in God's presence must hard to grow tired. Would that mean that when we die and have "eternal life" we would one day grow bored of heaven? Maybe that's what happened to Satan, he got bored and felt like starting a fight. Also surely experience of all the bad things that happen on earth would be ours only comparison to the greatness of heaven which is probably very different and hard to compare to earth. Maybe we would even keep expect things to eventually go wrong for us even though they weren't going to.

Once again I beg the question. Are you coming from an Atheist perspective? or is it more from a 'I think Satan is mis-understood' type stance?

Asiaprod

Oops hit the button twice, sorry

Asiaprod

JimiTime wrote:

Gain Why would you ask a question, concluding that god acts in selfishness?

Humor me.
Its a simple question, and you chose the word selfish acts I did not.

Its a simple progression:
Why did God make me,
For what purpose,
What does God gain (get out of it).

Sean7

JimiTime wrote:

Once again I beg the question. Are you coming from an Atheist perspective? or is it more from a 'I think Satan is mis-understood' type stance?

I'm sorry I missed that question last time. At the moment I can't honestly tell you. I've spent years dismissing my religion as unnecessary while continuing to live as a "passive catholic" as I like to call, but now I'm older and feel I need some answers but where religion is concerned I find that looking for answers simply creates more questions. I'm currently "between religions" if you like so I'm coming from that atheist/agnostic standpoint. I definatly can't say I think Satan if misunderstood because at the moment I doubt he even exists.

panda100

Sean7 wrote:

But isn't that god's fault? If it made us then surely it could make us as it saw fit. Constant overwhelming joy in God's presence must hard to grow tired. Would that mean that when we die and have "eternal life" we would one day grow bored of heaven? Maybe that's what happened to Satan, he got bored and felt like starting a fight. Also surely experience of all the bad things that happen on earth would be ours only comparison to the greatness of heaven which is probably very different and hard to compare to earth. Maybe we would even keep expect things to eventually go wrong for us even though they weren't going to.

But thats why I said that when we go to heaven we loose eveything that makes us human.Being Bored is quite a human and eartly trait Im sure.I believe that when we die we will loose the parts of us that make us feel 'bad' emotions such as anger,sadness and boredem.I also dont think we will remember anything we did i this life when we go to heaven.I think the afterlife will be a new life where all our emotions are changed into this sorta constant state of nivarna.
That aside I do see what your saying-why did God create us with the capacity to do evil-that im still trying to work out.....

larryone

I tend to think of Heaven and Hell as being parts of the same thing. Alot of the followers of Abrahamic faiths tend to think of it in a very balck and white way. I think of the afterlife as being a grey area between these two extremes. I consider God and Satan also to be the same thing, but at opposite ends of a spectrum.

JimiTime

Asiaprod wrote:

Humor me.
Its a simple question, and you chose the word selfish acts I did not.

Its a simple progression:
Why did God make me,
For what purpose,
What does God gain (get out of it).

You implied that our creation was for the gain of God, this by definition is selfishness, I merely applied the word you defined;)

Why did God make you?
Why did God make anything? Where does this line of questioning lead?
for what purpose?
To be happy, and live forever in a paradise earth!
What does God Gain?
If you are a parent, you bestow love on your child, their happiness is your Gain. Even if you must go through trials yourself to make your child happy, you will be happy in the knowledge of your childs happiness. Gods love for us is so great, that he gave us his only begotton son in order that we be saved. He gains 'our' happiness!:)

UU

JimiTime wrote:

Do all of you believe, that all Humans are destined for, Heaven, Hell or Purgatory? or do any of you believe that there will be a day of Judgement followed by a paradise earth?

I believe in all three but hell in a different sense. I believe hell isn't some fiery pit but rather a distance from Allah, the living God. I find it more practical to include reincarnation also as all religions get equal share in my beliefs. I believe that if one leads a wicked life they are given the choice of reincarnation. Purgatory to the state where one is cleansed of all wickedness and only when they reach enlightenment can one reach Paradise. It is in Purgatory where we are judged but Allah is most merciful and kind and judges us most fairly and gives us free will and options. (Btw, I'm not Muslim but do hold some Islamic beliefs. I just call God "Allah" as it suits me better due to the non-gender nature of the word).

PREjuDiceD

It's all just mind games so the few can control the masses by fear,which was just as well at first or there would be no civilisation but now there's just no need.We have the police and courts and the law to make sure that the strong cant just waltz up and take what they like from the weak.

It's a brilliant example of man using his brain to defeat brawn.

What with the muslim/christian bother and the fact that religion has been the cause of most wars in history since it's invention it's time we dropped it and just got on with life

Back in recent history the Catholic faith has been responsible for subjugating it's own peolpe by indoctrinating them from birth with the most terrible fears,also it is responsible for millions of gruesome and horrific murders what with the witch finder general and the inquisition and the likes,can this really be the work of a loving and benevolent god?

Not on your nelly,you have all been conned and it only takes a bit of intelligence and the strength of mind to ignore your fears to realise this.

I myself was brought up as a christian but I cannot accept the idea that every single muslim,bhuddist,hindu etc etc etc are destined for hell just because they were indoctrinated by different ideas from birth and they dont believe that Jesus is lord,it just doesnt sit right with me:rolleyes:

Asiaprod

JimiTime wrote:

You implied that our creation was for the gain of God, this by definition is selfishness, I merely applied the word you defined;)

Not sure I implied anything, thanks for taking time out to answer.

Sean7

I suppose this (and most other discussions on this forum) can be wrapped by the idea that we as finite mortal beings cannot possibly guess the means, motives, desires, theories or mechanics of an eternal, omnipetent god who is not constrained by time or physics.

But that would make for a rather dull board.

Asiaprod

Sean7 wrote:

I suppose this (and most other discussions on this forum) can be wrapped by the idea that we as finite mortal beings cannot possibly guess the means, motives, desires, theories or mechanics of an eternal, omnipetent god who is not constrained by time or physics.

How does that saying go again "God loves a tryer?":)

Sean7

Asiaprod wrote:

How does that saying go again "God loves a tryer?":)

haha yes indeed, so I hear anyway.

panda100

PREjuDiceD wrote:

It's all just mind games so the few can control the masses by fear,which was just as well at first or there would be no civilisation but now there's just no need.We have the police and courts and the law to make sure that the strong cant just waltz up and take what they like from the weak.

It's a brilliant example of man using his brain to defeat brawn.

What with the muslim/christian bother and the fact that religion has been the cause of most wars in history since it's invention it's time we dropped it and just got on with life

Back in recent history the Catholic faith has been responsible for subjugating it's own peolpe by indoctrinating them from birth with the most terrible fears,also it is responsible for millions of gruesome and horrific murders what with the witch finder general and the inquisition and the likes,can this really be the work of a loving and benevolent god?

Not on your nelly,you have all been conned and it only takes a bit of intelligence and the strength of mind to ignore your fears to realise this.

I myself was brought up as a christian but I cannot accept the idea that every single muslim,bhuddist,hindu etc etc etc are destined for hell just because they were indoctrinated by different ideas from birth and they dont believe that Jesus is lord,it just doesnt sit right with me:rolleyes:

UHH read the thread title-to beievers of the living God.Your two cents dont really apply in this thread.Anywho your argument is to do about organised realigons such as catholicism and Islam.You can still beilieve in a God,heaven,hell and purgaotry even if your not a catholic,protestant of whatever religon.I dont beleive in organised religous orders such as the rc church or any other type of religous order.Yet I still believe in A God and an afterlife.

UU

panda100 wrote:

UHH read the thread title-to beievers of the living God.Your two cents dont really apply in this thread.Anywho your argument is to do about organised realigons such as catholicism and Islam.You can still beilieve in a God,heaven,hell and purgaotry even if your not a catholic,protestant of whatever religon.I dont beleive in organised religous orders such as the rc church or any other type of religous order.Yet I still believe in A God and an afterlife.

Yes that's really well said panda100. I think in a similar way too. Although my beliefs are centred around Islam as well as Christian, Jewish and Buddhist, I don't follow these faiths directly but sort of use them as spiritual assistance and inspiration. Sure didn't God (Allah) create us, religions (people) didn't create Him.

panda100

UU wrote:

Yes that's really well said panda100. I think in a similar way too. Although my beliefs are centred around Islam as well as Christian, Jewish and Buddhist, I don't follow these faiths directly but sort of use them as spiritual assistance and inspiration. Sure didn't God (Allah) create us, religions (people) didn't create Him.

Is there a word for people like us?Arewe just spiritual?