Hand for Tournament Donkeys

Hectorjelly

The villain is wearing a suit and talks like he is a good player, im not sure though. I get a feeling that he is kind of bad, but its hard because I havent seen him show down any hands. (he isnt that aggressive, I just havent been at the table long). As soon as I see a hand showndown i can categorise players, until that point Im kind of at sea.

Blinds are 150 300, no ante. I have more than doubled my stack and am on at least 18k. He has around 15k.

Folded to the sb(villain) who makes it 600. I look disgusted by the min raise (I am) and make it 2k. He thinks for about 3 seconds then makes it 5k. What should I do? The field seems very weak and I already cover most of the table (I think) so if its close id prefer to fold.

This was the €500 Fo btw, 150+ players left.

Edit to add I have QQ which is probably more than a little important

Mr. Flibble

Hectorjelly wrote:

The field seems very weak and I already cover most of the table (I think) so if its close id prefer to fold.

A min raise, then a reraise doesn't look like AK to me, so that's the only hand which is 'close' to QQ. But I can't help with the rest. Myself, I'd probably do what I could to get all the chips in now believing that I'm in very good shape (and then cringe as he turns over KK:( )

Hectorjelly

What I think is the interesting point of this situation is that it doesnt really matter whether im beat or not. Assuming he isnt really bad he is folding AQ, TT and below if I push. He MAY call with JJ. So if I get called im probably beaten. I have to push for 15k and there is only 7 in there. So its possible that pushing is unprofitable. When playing 36nl cash game I would only 4 bet all in with QQ against a complete retard, I may well go broke to AA KK with QQ but it wont be preflop. But then cash games are different and many tournaments players only fold Jacks by accident. Maybe I should just call and get it in on any flop? Or fold?

Daithio

I fold this every time with no reads on the player at this stage of the tourney. You might be ahead, but there's a very strong chance you're not. You don't have a clue. With your comfortable chip position there's no need to get involved.

ianmc38

No brainer - Fold. You already know you can outplay the rest of the table.

califano

Push!.
He probably has KQ and thinks he's in the box seat.
I'll take my chances he doesnt have KK or AA. More likely he's a pair though but even more likely your pair is better. His thinking 'Ive a pair in the sb HOOOOW can he have a better hand!'

fuzzbox

Battle of the blinds, he has to show me Aces/Kings (or get lucky) to get my stack.

But I'm a donkey - I push.

Caveat - I suck.

Iceman78

I would have a bet that you are ahead. I reckon he has 10's or something like that.

Think i would fold though as dont want to risk tourney at this stage with no reads at all on villain.

Ollieboy

Daithio wrote:

I fold this every time with no reads on the player at this stage of the tourney. You might be ahead, but there's a very strong chance you're not. You don't have a clue. With your comfortable chip position there's no need to get involved.

I cant see you folding here Dave, not a chance.....lol

I would put him on a pocket pair, maybe a middle pair where he doesn't really want to see a flop, you've got to think your ahead here, there's only 2 pairs bigger than you. A lot of players would make this move in the SB, its a silly move as it only open up's the betting and there as to be a loser. If he had flat called, would you have raised, of course and you would have been hoping to get paid with a hand like this at this stage.

I think he might have put you on a move with the re-raise also, so I think a push is fine, or a flat call, see the flop and let him act first, but folding is out of the question.

So what did you do?

califano

wrote:

dont want to risk tourney at this stage with no reads at all on villain.

Not important. In fact this would be in your favour to push. He doesnt have any reads on you either. Two way street your in their first.

fuzzbox

rounders123 wrote:

Not important. In fact this would be in your favour to push. He doesnt have any reads on you either. Two way street your in their first.

This hand isnt about the right of first bluff. Hero has QQ, he aint bluffing.

In saying that - online - minraise pf, gets reraised, then 3-bet small = AA about 95% of the time. (the other 5% its KK).

This aint online tho.

califano

rounders123 wrote:

your in their first.

'You' as in the QQ player.
Im still prepared to go bust here. QQ increases in value when its the sb raising even if he's re-raising.

Lets put another slant on it for those that say Fold.
Action passes to the sb who goes all in. Are you calling now with QQ?.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

This hand isnt about the right of first bluff. Hero has QQ, he aint bluffing.

In saying that - online - minraise pf, gets reraised, then 3-bet small = AA about 95% of the time. (the other 5% its KK).

My figures have it at AA 99% of the time and KK 1%

fuzzbox

You *could* call and let him bluff the rest on the flop .

Might not be a bad plan.

This tends to go the same route as whenever I slowplay KK preflop (By calling a raise in position) ... A-on flop 100% of the time .

In this case, its probably going to come down AKJ .

Iceman78

Rounders, that situation with the SB going all in is completely different. That makes it look like an obvious steal. In that situation, i would call every time but this is a bit different.

Ste05

I think a fold is probably the correct move here. But I suck at MTT's and would probably call and push any non A/K flop. (And then I get knocked out miles from the money :rolleyes: )

But I think I'd listen to Diathio here. Fold here and make it out like you had rags and were making a move, the last thing I want people to think is that I'm folding QQ here. You can outplay the table and there is a much higher chance than normal that this guy will have AA or KK here. There will usually be better situations later in the tournament. When you have further catagorised the rest of the players at the table.

Good thread though....

Fatboydim

It smells of AA to me. Only the blinds left with AA... you want some action and most players would call the min raise in that position. You re-raise... He must be over the moon. So with incomplete information it has to be a fold. If he had AK he needs to see a flop. His re-raise of 5k is there to draw you in. If he didn't want a call ... such as with small PP he would most likely push all in or flat call to see if he hits his set. The only hand you're beating here is Jacks as sometimes the paint has an hallucinatory effect on some players and they think they're looking at a great hand.

However if he's from Galway or Mayo it's pocket twos and you should call in an instant.

MrPillowTalk

Im probably folding with no read on villain, he has played it like a big pp.

If you had 8k instead of 18 I would push but you have comfortable chips and are only getting your push called by aa kk, maybe jj if hes bad.

Calling isnt terrible considering your stack size.

kinaldo

Hectorjelly wrote:

Folded to the sb(villain) who makes it 600. I look disgusted by the min raise (I am) and make it 2k.

lol... i know that feeling all too well

i might push hoping he's an Ax merchant or one of many players incapable of laying down a pp higher than nines preflop. i see the flop at the very least.

Daithio

Ollieboy wrote:

I cant see you folding here Dave, not a chance.....lol

I would put him on a pocket pair, maybe a middle pair where he doesn't really want to see a flop, you've got to think your ahead here, there's only 2 pairs bigger than you. A lot of players would make this move in the SB, its a silly move as it only open up's the betting and there as to be a loser. If he had flat called, would you have raised, of course and you would have been hoping to get paid with a hand like this at this stage.

I think he might have put you on a move with the re-raise also, so I think a push is fine, or a flat call, see the flop and let him act first, but folding is out of the question.

So what did you do?

LMAO. Everyone thinks I'm a calling station! Which I kind of am, but not at this stage of a tourney and for that many chips. I've folded QQ dozens of times preflop. If he's beaten well then he's played it well and fair play to him, but I really think he has a monster here.

smurph

So how did it play out Hector, don't keep us in suspense:)

delanec8

I think youre beat here but i wouldnt rule out a call.

If you put him on KK or AA id still call because if you hit a set on the flop your getting all his chips. Youve 3K more to take down basically the 17K in the pot assuming he isnt going to fold with AA or KK after the flop. You might not have the odds to call but the difference between having 16K by folding and 13K by calling at this stage of a tournament isnt too significant. And when you hit youre up to 33K which gives you a big advantage over the table.

By calling you also have a chance to re assess what the villian has after the flop comes down at which point something he does may tell you your QQ is good regardless whether you hit or not.

Ollieboy

Daithio wrote:

LMAO. Everyone thinks I'm a calling station! Which I kind of am, but not at this stage of a tourney and for that many chips. I've folded QQ dozens of times preflop. If he's beaten well then he's played it well and fair play to him, but I really think he has a monster here.

Maybe its just me and I'm sure it is, but I couldn't lay this down here, I agree with Len and other people's comments, but I would expect this player to have 10/10 maybe jj, I think if it was AA, he might flat call and hope you hit to get your money, even with KK.

I could only laydown a big hand like this, if there was a lot of action in front of me, this did happen on Friday and I was correct, the player had AA. But in general, I think this has to be an automatic all-in, he might have AK here also.

Bandana boy

I think call here
This smells of a suited ace feeling he has been bullied

I think his reaction and flop bet/check will tell u a lot more
and u never know you do have qqq chance with plenty still behind

Daithio

The key thing about this hand is the player you are up against. Some players would only make this play with AA or KK, and others would make it with a much wider range, probably 99 up and AK, maybe AQ. Because you have no reads on the players whatsoever I think you have to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he has the big pair. You've only put in a tiny amount and you're still in great shape if you fold. You don't really have a clue where you stand, and in poker if you have no idea what to do at all generally the best option is a fold.

Culchie

Push for me.

I think we have a 'suit' who thinks he's got a 'punk' playing back at him a al Gus Hansen style, and he's trying to make a point, smooth the path for some blinds later on by putting hero on the back foot.

I'm getting stuck in here.

Lafortezza

I'd be itching to push here, one thing is that he min-raised from the SB. AJ or KQ might raise more than that to just take the blinds without a fight. AA or KK would like you to call with Ax or a smaller PP and play a pot. The min-raise instead of a standard raise would indicate at least JJ+ or AK.

cardshark202

Unless this player is a total idiot, this is an easy fold. And even if he's a total idiot, he probably has you beat here. I fold here most of the time. I certainly don't call for set value given the stack sizes.

cardshark202

Ollieboy wrote:

Maybe its just me and I'm sure it is, but I couldn't lay this down here, I agree with Len and other people's comments, but I would expect this player to have 10/10 maybe jj, I think if it was AA, he might flat call and hope you hit to get your money, even with KK.

I could only laydown a big hand like this, if there was a lot of action in front of me, this did happen on Friday and I was correct, the player had AA. But in general, I think this has to be an automatic all-in, he might have AK here also.

How do you do it? I mean, you put him on this delightful range and convince yourself that he can't have AA or KK when those two hands are by far the most likely. I love the range you put him on though. If thats the case I instacall. Unfortunately, it almost certainly isn't so I begrudgingly fold.

Culchie

cardshark202 wrote:

Unless this player is a total idiot, this is an easy fold. And even if he's a total idiot, he probably has you beat here. I fold here most of the time. I certainly don't call for set value given the stack sizes.

I don't think this is as easy a fold as you say.

For me, there's a couple of things at play here. I wasn't at table so I'm only taking a stab at this.

But here we have a 'suit' and a €500 buy-in event who probably thinks HJ is some snotty nosed kid playing back at him.

and this whole min raise thing .... I mean I'd like to think it doesn't send us all running for mammy.

wayfarer

Why is calling here such a bad play?

You are getting better than 2:1 at this point and you will almost certainly know where you stand after the flop. JJ and TT etc will probably have put you on high cards and most likely will shut down if a few fall. Alternatively, AA and KK will be reraising. You won't be shaking AK if it connects so again you will know where you stand.

I think the hand gets more complicated if you apply the block theory (or whatever it's called). The 3k you will be calling with here won't come into play for a long time since you are one of the big stacks. You can use this to outflop AA and KK (if it is AA and KK) and get his whole stack. If you take into account implied odds you will be getting better than 6:1 which isn't far off what you need, and considering these chips are temporarily superfluous, this could be enough to make this the corrct play.

Ollieboy

Culchie wrote:

Push for me.

I think we have a 'suit' who thinks he's got a 'punk' playing back at him a al Gus Hansen style, and he's trying to make a point, smooth the path for some blinds later on by putting hero on the back foot.

I'm getting stuck in here.

I have to aggree with this and most average players will think there ahead with any pair in the small blind against the big blind.

I understand Dave's point and it makes total sense, but I think this is a risks worth taken.

ocallagh

Daithio wrote:

The key thing about this hand is the player you are up against. Some players would only make this play with AA or KK, and others would make it with a much wider range, probably 99 up and AK, maybe AQ. Because you have no reads on the players whatsoever I think you have to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he has the big pair. You've only put in a tiny amount and you're still in great shape if you fold. You don't really have a clue where you stand, and in poker if you have no idea what to do at all generally the best option is a fold.

This pretty much sums up my feeling about the hand. You have to give him credit for a whole range of hands here.. (I wish I didn't know the outcome of this hand.. )

bluff (QT, KQ, T9, Gholimoli etc) - this range is actually quite possible IMO.
88, 77, 66 - unlikely
99, TT - unlikely, most would flat call HJs raise with these hands
JJ, QQ - quite likely to hold either of these hands
KK, AK - very likely to have these hands
AA - again, some would argue AA would flat call HJs raise... but others would raise again with AA. This cannot be ruled out.

conclusion - I have no f***ing idea what to do with QQ... so I fold without more information.

Fatboydim

The fact Nial knows what happens makes me think the player was a donk who got lucky... But ignoring that... I think the question is quite a simple one. Does the player want a call? And it looks to me as if he does. He bets the minimum because BB is likely to call it. Instead he gets a raise. His reraise is to 5k in other words 1.5 times Hectors reraise. That is perfect for a call. He wants the call. If he wants the call he must feel good about his hand. But it's a bit like watching an episode of eastenders on New Years Eve... It starts off jolly enough but when the bells toll you know it's curtains for someone.

ianmc38

wayfarer wrote:

If you take into account applied odds

Lol.

Give us the results already.

Culchie

Fatboydim wrote:

The fact Nial knows what happens makes me think the player was a donk who got lucky... But ignoring that... I think the question is quite a simple one. Does the player want a call? And it looks to me as if he does. He bets the minimum because BB is likely to call it. Instead he gets a raise. His reraise is to 5k in other words 1.5 times Hectors reraise. That is perfect for a call. He wants the call. If he wants the call he must feel good about his hand. But it's a bit like watching an episode of eastenders on New Years Eve... It starts off jolly enough but when the bells toll you know it's curtains for someone.

Either it's a hand he wants to call, or it's a 'suit' trying to put manners on a 'young pup' with fresh air, in a €500 tourney, the 'suit' thinks the 'young pup' will go off whimpering.

Time to bite his ankles.

Hectorjelly

I think calling with the intention of folding on ANY flop is bad, its just too big a % of my stack. When he made it 5k I nearly threw my hand in the muck immediately, but I thought about if for a long time. Firstly the fact that this is a blind on blind confrontation means that I am happier getting it in with a wider range than normal. Its perfectly reasnable for him to 3 bet TT or JJ, there would be a totally different dynamic if this was me tangling with an early position raiser. Secondly the raise to 5k seemed very strong, but doesnt actually risk many chips on his part (so its a good bet really). Of course this might mean he has AA, but not neccessarily. Because he only min raised my reraise hasnt really defined my hand to any great extent. Finally I felt it was kind of marginal, but if I fold here my stealing ability is going to be diminished if I dont show, and god knows how many people will attack my blinds if I do. So I went all in. As soon as he didnt call instantly I started hoping for a call - He folded relunctantly after a while.

cardshark202

Goddammit I wish I read the original post more clearly. If I had realised this was a battle of the blinds I would be less likely to fold. I think calling is better than pushing because, when u push u let 99 & TT & maybe JJ fold, as well as AQ. AK may fold but thats not necessarily a good thing. So you're getting called by AA, KK, probably AK and possibly JJ. If you call, you can possibly get his stack if he has 99-JJ and its a low flop, and get away from it if he has AK on a A high flop. You also stack him if the flop is Q-high and he has AA, KK or AQ. If he has AA or KK then you still lose but that was always gonna be the case. I don't advocate folding on every A or K high flop btw. It depends on your read.

In short I think calling is better than pushing.

Daithio

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think calling with the intention of folding on ANY flop is bad, its just too big a % of my stack. When he made it 5k I nearly threw my hand in the muck immediately, but I thought about if for a long time. Firstly the fact that this is a blind on blind confrontation means that I am happier getting it in with a wider range than normal. Its perfectly reasnable for him to 3 bet TT or JJ, there would be a totally different dynamic if this was me tangling with an early position raiser. Secondly the raise to 5k seemed very strong, but doesnt actually risk many chips on his part (so its a good bet really). Of course this might mean he has AA, but not neccessarily. Because he only min raised my reraise hasnt really defined my hand to any great extent. Finally I felt it was kind of marginal, but if I fold here my stealing ability is going to be diminished if I dont show, and god knows how many people will attack my blinds if I do. So I went all in. As soon as he didnt call instantly I started hoping for a call - He folded relunctantly after a while.

WP! I was going to try and make excuses like Reggie;) but I thought it was an autofold LOL, and I was well aware it was a battle of the blinds. This size stack is one I find quite hard to play, it's not big enough to gamble with for a portion of your chips, and it's not small enough to just be on autopush with any two. I find it alot easier to play either the monster stack or the short stack.

wayfarer

ianmc38 wrote:

Lol.

implied! IMPLIED!!

me fail english? thats unpossible!

RoundTower

Daithio wrote:

This size stack is one I find quite hard to play, it's not big enough to gamble with for a portion of your chips, and it's not small enough to just be on autopush with any two. I find it alot easier to play either the monster stack or the short stack.

I was going to agree with this until I looked back and found both players have 50BB+ which is very deep for a tourney (obviously I'd already forgotten which thread I was reading).

I feel the same with a stack of more like 12 or 15BB when I start looking at the clock wishing the blinds would hurry the fcuk up and increase.

Culchie

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think calling with the intention of folding on ANY flop is bad, its just too big a % of my stack. When he made it 5k I nearly threw my hand in the muck immediately, but I thought about if for a long time. Firstly the fact that this is a blind on blind confrontation means that I am happier getting it in with a wider range than normal. Its perfectly reasnable for him to 3 bet TT or JJ, there would be a totally different dynamic if this was me tangling with an early position raiser. Secondly the raise to 5k seemed very strong, but doesnt actually risk many chips on his part (so its a good bet really). Of course this might mean he has AA, but not neccessarily. Because he only min raised my reraise hasnt really defined my hand to any great extent. Finally I felt it was kind of marginal, but if I fold here my stealing ability is going to be diminished if I dont show, and god knows how many people will attack my blinds if I do. So I went all in. As soon as he didnt call instantly I started hoping for a call - He folded relunctantly after a while.

Great Play.

I bet he went elsewhere for his blinds.

cardshark202

Culchie wrote:

Great Play.

Its not like he came back over the top with 46s or anything. Its QQ in a blinds battle. Standard.

I still prefer calling than pushing though saying that I would probably push too in the heat of the moment.

Culchie

cardshark202 wrote:

Its not like he came back over the top with 46s or anything. Its QQ in a blinds battle. Standard.

I still prefer calling than pushing though saying that I would probably push too in the heat of the moment.

Standard? I don't think so, it was good play, put in a very tight spot, and showed plenty balls.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Its not like he came back over the top with 46s or anything. Its QQ in a blinds battle. Standard.

I still prefer calling than pushing though saying that I would probably push too in the heat of the moment.

Push is better if he makes a mistake folding AQ/AK !!!!!

He has to call 10k to win 20k here. So he should more than consider a call with those hands. He would be correct to call with AK and it would not be a bad call to call with AQ (or AJ or AT or A-anything).

He might well call with JJ and TT in any case, so the gain outweighs the loss in my view.

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Push is better if he makes a mistake folding AQ/AK !!!!!

He has to call 10k to win 20k here. So he should more than consider a call with those hands. He would be correct to call with AK and it would not be a bad call to call with AQ (or AJ or AT or A-anything).

He might well call with JJ and TT in any case, so the gain outweighs the loss in my view.

If he will call a push with these hands then by all means push. But I think he's more likely to go broke by hitting top pair with AJ or AT or something to our overpair or with JJ or TT on a low flop than he is to call a push.

I want him to call with AQ or and Ax. Im not happy being up against AK but I won't cry over it because I'm still ahead.:)

Fatboydim

Nice to know it had a happy ending.
Unless I have a tell on him, or I'm monster stacked... I still fold. but then I am the same guy who called Stephen Mc all in with A 10. So who knows. Keep 'em guessing.:D

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

If he will call a push with these hands then by all means push. But I think he's more likely to go broke by hitting top pair with AJ or AT or something to our overpair or with JJ or TT on a low flop than he is to call a push.

I want him to call with AQ or and Ax. Im not happy being up against AK but I won't cry over it because I'm still ahead.:)

No, you want him to FOLD Ax, but call with pairs.

Really

ianmc38

I'd like to know what he was min raising and reraising with. I've rarely seen anything other than KK/AA with those betting patterns.

And I much prefer the push to a call.

Culchie

ianmc38 wrote:

I'd like to know what he was min raising and reraising with. I've rarely seen anything other than KK/AA with those betting patterns.

And I much prefer the push to a call.

Cards didn't matter, he was playing the man, not the ball.

Hitman Actual

fuzzbox wrote:

No, you want him to FOLD Ax, but call with pairs.

Really

Am I missing something here? Why would you want him to fold Ax (x not a King)? You're a 70% favourite.