Rule question: Mini Roundabout, 3 exits.

MontgomeryClift

On a mini-roundabout (just a painted spot on the middle of a junction) with a total of 3 roads off it, I see people indicating right when they're planning to take the exit to the right. But it's the second exit they're taking, not the third, as the first exit is directly ahead and there's no left exit. Is this wrong?

Also, is it necessary to signal left after you've passed the exit before the one you're going to take? On the mini-roundabout there isn't time to do this. I'm asking here because I can't find an answer to this or any explanation to do with mini-roundabouts in the Rules of The Road book.

kaizersoze

A roundabout is a roundabout regardless of size. The small ones are covered by the same rules as bigger ones.

BrianD3

Maybe the forthcoming new edition of ROTR will have more info. But mini roundabouts should be covered by the exact same rules as normal roundabouts.

The query about signalling right when taking a 2nd exit past 12 o'clock on a clock face is something that has been debated here before. I am still not sure of it. I was told by an ISM driving instuctor to treat any 2nd exit past 12 o'c clock the same as a 3rd exit i.e. indicate right then left and approach in right had lane.

mike65

Exactly so, always indicate right then left for any turn past "12"

On some roundabouts the distance between any two exits is so small it can become a bit confusing.

You often end up with people all sat waiting for the guy to the right of them to make the first move!

Mike.

MontgomeryClift

The book makes no reference to direction of exit, only to the number - First, second or subsequent exits. My driving instructor did mention something to do with direction wrt clock face, but he had a tendency to evade questions and I did fail my test because he kept taking me round the test routes in only one direction when the 'reverse' direction had booby traps, so I take his advice with a grain of salt.

Anan1

I'm not sure of the rule, but common sense would seem to dictate that it's safer to indicate right until the exit before the one you're taking and then indicate left until you turn. That way, other road users can see at a glance what you're going to do.

The problem with not indicating right, IMO, is that, given driving standards in this country, nobody can safely infer that you're not going to take the third or later exit anyway, and just haven't bothered to indicate.

Big Balls

Anan1 wrote:

I'm not sure of the rule, but common sense would seem to dictate that it's safer to indicate right until the exit before the one you're taking and then indicate left until you turn

Good advice there. :rolleyes:

You do see the above carried out a lot on our roads, but most of the time, there's 2 L plates stuck onto the windows too.

murphaph

Anan1 wrote:

I'm not sure of the rule, but common sense would seem to dictate that it's safer to indicate right until the exit before the one you're taking and then indicate left until you turn. That way, other road users can see at a glance what you're going to do.

Sorry, but stop doing that! Read your ROTR and at least follow what's in there. It may not cover the '12 o'clock debate' but it's better than doing what you do.

Anan1

murphaph wrote:

Sorry, but stop doing that! Read your ROTR and at least follow what's in there. It may not cover the '12 o'clock debate' but it's better than doing what you do.

Why?

murphaph

Because if yu are taking the first or subsequent exit before 12 o'clock (assuming a reasonably standard roundabout with at least one exit before 12 o'clock) and you start indicating 'right' it will completely mislead the driver behind you and approaching the roundabout from the opposite side into thinking you're taking a different exit than you actually are.

A HGV driver approaching from the other side of the roundabout would not proceed to enter the roundabout if he saw your 'right' signal as he knows he won't be clear by the time you come around to your signalled exit. Of course you wouldn't be going to cross his path at all and you have succeeded in reducing the efficiency of the junction with your mistake as the HGV sits there with cars piling up behind.

If everyone followed the rules then everyone would have a good idea what people intend to do and can take the apprpriate action.

The OP

You indicate right if you are going more than halfway around the roundabout, regardless of the number of exits. Simple as.

The OP

Anan1 wrote:

I'm not sure of the rule, but common sense would seem to dictate that it's safer to indicate right until the exit before the one you're taking and then indicate left until you turn. That way, other road users can see at a glance what you're going to do.

It's not "common sense" - it's actually just wrong. See the ROTR for reference, since you have obviously never read them before.

Big Balls

Don't get too annoyed at him lads, Anan tried to preach his version of the ROTR to me in another thread... it gets funny after a while!

colm_mcm

It's fairly simple

Turning left: Take left hand lane and indicate left

2nd exit: Take left hand lane do not indicate till past first exit.

3rd exit : Indicate right, take right hand lane, do not indicate left until past 2nd exit.

(obviously follow road markings if there are specific lanes for left or right turns)

What's so complicated that people can't grasp this.

There's a big roundabout in Naas at woodies. I'm frequently pissed off by traffic coming from naas town going to dublin (3rd exit) and taking the left hand lane, then trying to cut me up to get to the exit. There should be guards watching roundabouts and prosecuting these idiots

DMC

Indicating at roundabouts in this country is atrocious.

Indicators. Fantastic inventions. Use them correctly.

colm_mcm

there should be advertisments. TV and Press.

also, destination names painted on the lanes would be a help

MontgomeryClift

Right. I haven't got an answer to the question. It seems there's a lot of confusion about the Rules of The Road. I'll keep on using the first, second, third/subsequent exit scheme outlined in the RoTR until it's improved.

Padraig Mor

To the very best of my knowledge BOTH interpretations appear in the ROTR book. The text describes 1st/2nd/3rd exit etc., yet the figure features 'straight on', 'turning right' etc. Before my test I asked my driving instructor this specific question and he was of the opinion that you should indicate right if the exit is past '12 o clock', even it is only the 2nd exit. TBH I reckon that this is the safest thing to do.

MontgomeryClift

I suppose in my example a right indicator would leave only one possibility anyway, even though you would be taking the second exit.

impr0v

colm_mcm wrote:

Turning left: Take left hand lane and indicate left

2nd exit: Take left hand lane do not indicate till past first exit.

3rd exit : Indicate right, take right hand lane, do not indicate left until past 2nd exit.

(obviously follow road markings if there are specific lanes for left or right turns)

What's so complicated that people can't grasp this.

I don't think there is a problem grasping this, and in fairness to Anan, the only thing he is saying is that people should indicate right, prior to indicating left for the 2nd exit, which is technically wrong, but he was advocating it as preferable at times, since a large percentage of drivers don't indicate left when they are turning left and indicating right would give a waiting driver a clear signal that you weren't turning left.

The original question was about a situation where there is a three arm roundabout and I don't think the rules above adapt flawlessly to it and afaik, the rules of the road is generally silent on the scenario.

My opinion is as follows:
treating the roundabout alignment as a Y-type formation, one should indicate left (staying in specific lanes if provided obviously) for the first exit, and right for any subsequent exit, i.e. the second or a effective U-turn on to the third. The straight-through condition is removed from this situation so a drivers intention is clear with indication, whereas with a lack of indication, i.e. treating the second exit as the straight through condition, and not indicating until past the first, leaves a motorist waiting to see if you are just a indicator-oblivious driver, or one intending to take the second exit.

The T-shape three arm roundabout is less clear. Technically the proper procedure would more than likely be to treat the roundabout as a four arm one with the third exit missing, though I think an exception should be made when one is approacing from the arm where the first exit is the straight-through one, i.e. the leftmost arm of the T shape. Approaching from here the driver should indicate left, as it is the first exit, despite being straight through. The difference with the Y alignment is that if one is approaching from the rightmost arm, and wanting to go straight through to the second exit, one shouldn't indicate right, but should behave as if taking the second exit on a four arm roundabout.

With five or more arm roundabouts I think the correct procedure is to take the right hand lane, and indicate right for the third or subsequent exits, indicating left after passing the exit before the one you intend to take.

Anan1

murphaph wrote:

Because if yu are taking the first or subsequent exit before 12 o'clock (assuming a reasonably standard roundabout with at least one exit before 12 o'clock) and you start indicating 'right' it will completely mislead the driver behind you and approaching the roundabout from the opposite side into thinking you're taking a different exit than you actually are.

A HGV driver approaching from the other side of the roundabout would not proceed to enter the roundabout if he saw your 'right' signal as he knows he won't be clear by the time you come around to your signalled exit. Of course you wouldn't be going to cross his path at all and you have succeeded in reducing the efficiency of the junction with your mistake as the HGV sits there with cars piling up behind.

If everyone followed the rules then everyone would have a good idea what people intend to do and can take the apprpriate action.

This would all make sense if we could accurately infer the intentions of cars from their failure to indicate. The hypothetical HGV cannot pull onto a roundabout in the expectation that traffic already on the roundabout will pull off before it reaches him, whatever way other cars are indicating (or not). He needs to wait for a gap big enough to allow him to safely enter the roundabout, period.

Oh and BigBalls - If you're still upset about the M50 thread then do feel free to abuse me as much as you wish over there. I promise to read through it all carefully as soon as time permits;)

colm_mcm

if you're indicating right while intending to take the second exit, and I'm behind you, one of two things will happen:

You indicate right and take the left hand lane - I am behind you and want to turn right, I'm afraid to take the right hand lane in case you cut me up

You indicate right and take the right hand lane, I presume you're taking the third exit, I take the left hand lane as I'm taking the 2nd exit, you cut me up.