Ruling

roryc

From the Sporting Emporium last night

I was up to close to 5.5K when a bad ruling (IMO) cost me a good chunk of my stack. The pokerroom manager (I think) came to deal at our table, and was there about 20 minutes when I picked up 93o in the BB. MONSTER I know! Anyway, a few limpers and I checked it. Flop came A 9 4.Small blind check, and I felt he had nothing. He only had a small amount left, and I thought he would push if he had anything, as there was about 800 in the middle. UTG didn't look too happy with the flop, and I felt I could isolate the SB with a bet. I threw out 500, UTG quickly folded, and the SB thought about it and went all in, I think about 800 more. I looked at the dealer, and he said its on you, just the two of you, so I called, and flipped over my cards.

Out of nowhere the Chinese lad shouts "I still have cards!". Surely this is cheating? He hid his cards and let play pass him when I made my 500 bet. The SB the moved in and he waited until I exposed my cards until he announced he was still in the hand. Ruling? The dealer/manager ruled that I should have been keeping an eye on who was in the hand. And you shouldn't?? I f the dealer syas to me, "just the two of you left..." . Am I wrong to believe him? Surely its his responsibility to know who's still i a hand. And what about the Chinese lad? He had clearly been hiding his cards under his hands and let play pass him. Cheating no?

Anyway, he had only seen my 3 as my 9 had been hidden underneath it, and he then pushed all in. I had to fold and he showed A 5. The turn was a 5 and the river a 2. I would have made a straight, but thats not important. Once he saw my 3, he knew there was no other card I could have that was ahead of A5, so obvioulsy he pushed. The thing that annoys me is, I would never have thrown in the original 500 bet if I had known the Chinese lad was still in, as I was working off the other two players. AND I would never have called the SB's all in if I had known there was someone else in the hand.

Now I'm not annoyed that I lost the hand, or even that the dealer made a mistake (everyone makes mistakes), but I feel like I was cheated a bit, and also the dealer talked down to me after the hand as if I was some fcuking newbie, spouting some rule after the hand "it is a players responsibility to ensure....". Blah blah blah. Whaty about the dealers responsibility? If you aren't sure there's only two players left, dont fcuking say there is?

I would be interested to know what the ruling is on this.

nikorami

the ruling is only that the guy with a hand left has the option to act, your money remains in the pot and after he acts you can choose to call or fold.

The contention of the guy cheating or you not paying attention are not part of any "rules". Until there is a formal governing body, this stuff will happen.

Yes, you should have known all the players left in the hand...cuz you saw them limp. But no one else at the table noted the guys cards...which suggests to me the guy was being pretty dodgy.

roryc

Exactly. I know I should have known there was naother player in the pot. I had checked the pot, when I was looking to raise and it was 800. I should have realised that was 4xBB, and therefore, there was four players in the hand.

Still, when the dealer actually says that you are the only two left in the pot, I tend to believe him. I was annoyed at the other lad, who I feel was clearly keeping quiet and hiding his cards under his hands, obviously hoping for something like this to happen.

ianmc38

AFAIK the guy with cards can choose to call or raise. Your bet remains in the centre.

roryc

Thats the ruling that was given, but would you not consider this cheating? He let play pass over him, let the shortstack go all in, let me call, heard the dealer state we were the only two left in the hand, let me turn over my cards, and THEN announced that he was still in the hand.

jem

ianmc38 wrote:

AFAIK the guy with cards can choose to call or raise. Your bet remains in the centre.

correct however the attitude of the dealer was #### and I would lety it be known.
At every table I sit at I insist that the cards are out there for everyone to see and cant be taken off the table. if i cant see the cards I question as to why i cant and insist that they are out in front to be seen by all.
If i get any resistance I call the td and in a very confident voice tell him/her that this is therule. so far no disagreement.
I know I am a pain in the arse at time about it but fair is fair.

ianmc38

Well I'm suprsied Bernard didn't give your man a warning about keeping his cards visible. Maybe he's lost interest because he's leaving. generally the decisions he makes are good and I have never seen him make an incorrect ruling.

At the same time, I know the guy you're talking about and I'm sure he deliberately played it that way, as otherwise he would have made an issue of it the second the action passed by him. Cheating - technically no, just being a scumbag really.

DubTony

Personally I'd have done that thing Rory likes to do with the chair when he's playing online. And the names I would have called the guy ... :eek:

stephenoleary

ianmc38 wrote:

Well I'm suprsied Bernard didn't give your man a warning about keeping his cards visible. Maybe he's lost interest because he's leaving..

What? Bernard's leaving too? Is all not well in the SE?

Cillerxx

I deal in the Sp.Em. and the situation described up top is typical of Bernard.

If that had been me, and it could well have, if the asian guy was hiding his cards, i would first of all, apologise profusly to rory as it was of course my fault. Him saying its rorys responsability etc...and not even taking responsability is pathetic. Then id give out to the asian guy. Again not done.

Unfortunatly afterwards, theres no two ways about it. Although yer man was bein a tool, its just underhanded, and not against the rules. Your cards would have to be visable, and you would not be able to do anything except call, check, or fold for the remainder of the hand.

I would also presume that i would be keeping an extra close eye on the asian dude thereafter, and ridgidly sticking to the rules where it concerns him to the point of being annoying so he knew where he stood.

ianmc38

whodini wrote:

What? Bernard's leaving too? Is all not well in the SE?

He's gone in a couple of weeks.

ianmc38

Cillerxx wrote:

I deal in the Sp.Em.

And you are?

ZZR1100

Personaly i think it s hould be the dealers responsiblity.If you are in seat 1 where you cant see seat 9 or 10 and if the dealer turns to you and says its your turn and you do as you did above and seat 10 says he still has cards why should you be punished.

Corben Dallas

Dealers at fault, but everyone can make a mistake, wouldnt be confident that the TD in SE would give correct rulings all the time, also his manner is v poor, no respect for the players and any complaints/queries they might have.

Maybe all that u can hope for is that the TD/Dealer gives stern warning to the hiding cards guy so he knows its not on. (not SE accepted behavior/policy etc)

Its the 'Praying to teh Poker Gods' stance, >player makes a pious V shape with hands and covers his cards/chips so its difficult/impossible for other players on table to see what size stack and if he has live cards.

---

Handy if u want to make the 'I still have cards left' play when action passes u and theres action for another player(s) later :mad:
/sarcasm

Cillerxx

Bernards gone on friday. (31st)

ianmc38 wrote:

And you are?

One of the croupier, like i said.