~What's the correct way to play a big wrap in Omaha

NickyOD

The pot is raised preflop and I call in the SB with 8s-8h-Th-Qs.
4 players see the flop.

The flop is 9s-Jh-6c

The preflop raiser is last to act and will probably make a continuation bet of close to the pot if I check to him but first to act how should I play this hand assuming we are all sitting with about 100 BBs?

staringelf

checking it to him and letting him continue bet is fine and so is leading out yourself. i'd probably let him bet though and then flat call and get a turn card as cheap as possible. if he has a draw to a worse straight you could clean him out so you want him to stick around a bit. call his cont bet and then see what the turn brings and then reevaluate would be my play

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

The pot is raised preflop and I call in the SB with 8s-8h-Th-Qs.
4 players see the flop.

The flop is 9s-Jh-6c

The preflop raiser is last to act and will probably make a continuation bet of close to the pot if I check to him but first to act how should I play this hand assuming we are all sitting with about 100 BBs?

Obviously this hand is easier to play in position. I often check, call, and pot any turn card. I prefer this to leading out when you win a smaller pot if everyone folds, and don't know where you are if you get called. Check raising might be better still, to get rid of TK and QK hands, but I don't particularly like it when you have such bad relative position.

Staringelf - this hand is just as likely to make a worse straight than a better one. If a Q or a T comes you make the second nuts.

Benglian

Lets' see...
My first reaction is it's not a great hand to play out of the blinds for a raise, it's simply not strong enough as from experience you need a premium hand to play OOP for a raise. Marginal hands OOP are -EV.
I have that stuck on my monitor to remind me.
There'll be another hand along in a minute, WHY play a marginal hand OOP?

But as the hand is shown...

First reaction is I want a free card. Second is I'm calling a bet but I am gonna cry if I have to call a RR behind me from someone who was slow playing the PFR and has flopped a set.

You have ten good outs, the four 7's, two 8's, and four Kings.
You have another 6 non nut outs, the 3 Tens and 3 Queens.
A heart on the turn gives you a dopey flush draw.

The trouble with playing OOP is if you hit one of your non nut outs you cannot stand a Raise behind you.
If you hit a nut out and bet, get called, and it flushes OR pairs on the end, you're dead.
If you hit a nut out and bet, and get raised, you won't be too happy either, unless it the turn was an 8.
You could go for the check raise on the flop IF you thought the PFR is Raising with Aces, AND would lay them down, AND you are hoping that no-one else is slow playing a set.

Answer: CHECK and hope for a free card. If the PFR is aggressive I am not even sure you can call a pot bet just in case of the RR behind you. If you get a free card and it gives you the Flush draw, you can probably call a bet then from the PFR, but he won't call you when you hit, unless you are beaten.

Just my quick thoughts...for what they are worth.

I of course assume you this is online? If it was at the Fitz I would probably play it differently depending on who the players behind me were....

Feel free to disagree....

fuzzbox

Anyway you like, you have a monster .

It depends on things like
- stack size (how deep is your love?)
- opponent quality (will he fold so you can semi-bluff, or will he call when you get there?)
- position (are we in position or out of position)
- players remaining (do we need to clean up our outs ... or can we ? KQT8 is not fun. Nor is KQJ9, or QTJ9)

How sure are you that he will CB ... will he ever just check?
I like a check-raise I guess, if he always bets. You might get folds from KTxx hands (which is good). Maybe you get 96 and J6 to fold. If you get 66xx to fold even some of the time then thats good.

If called - push any non-pairing turn card.
If it pairs, then careful !!

fixer

assuming PFR potted it from the button, there's about 20BB in the pot, so you need to decide now if you want to go to the mattresses with this wrap.

PFR might be on something like 9TJQ so is freerolling you, or maybe he's TJQK or even the worst case TQKA. You only really have a 7 or 8 as clean outs, anything else could counterfeit you.

a lead bet might take him off a lot of big starting hands, like AAds or KKds or AAJT.

So, passive check/call to see a cheap card, hoping for a 7 or 8, or an aggressive lead bet which would likely lead you to an all-in situation right quick.

I bet it, and go home early a lot.

NickyOD

Benglian wrote:

Lets' see...
My first reaction is it's not a great hand to play out of the blinds for a raise, it's simply not strong enough as from experience you need a premium hand to play OOP for a raise. Marginal hands OOP are -EV.
I have that stuck on my monitor to remind me.
There'll be another hand along in a minute, WHY play a marginal hand OOP?

But as the hand is shown...

First reaction is I want a free card. Second is I'm calling a bet but I am gonna cry if I have to call a RR behind me from someone who was slow playing the PFR and has flopped a set.

You have ten good outs, the four 7's, two 8's, and four Kings.
You have another 6 non nut outs, the 3 Tens and 3 Queens.
A heart on the turn gives you a dopey flush draw.

The trouble with playing OOP is if you hit one of your non nut outs you cannot stand a Raise behind you.
If you hit a nut out and bet, get called, and it flushes OR pairs on the end, you're dead.
If you hit a nut out and bet, and get raised, you won't be too happy either, unless it the turn was an 8.
You could go for the check raise on the flop IF you thought the PFR is Raising with Aces, AND would lay them down, AND you are hoping that no-one else is slow playing a set.

Answer: CHECK and hope for a free card. If the PFR is aggressive I am not even sure you can call a pot bet just in case of the RR behind you. If you get a free card and it gives you the Flush draw, you can probably call a bet then from the PFR, but he won't call you when you hit, unless you are beaten.

Just my quick thoughts...for what they are worth.

I of course assume you this is online? If it was at the Fitz I would probably play it differently depending on who the players behind me were....

Feel free to disagree....

I'm not a well rounded omaha player by any means so I don't know if what I'm saying is correct but I would be of the opinion that foling this hand even to a single raise is pretty weak tight.

The problem with wraps is a lot of my hands can be counterfeited by certain cards since if I check raise or lead out I'll probably only get action from similar drawing hands or set. Since I'm a 45/55 dog to a flopped set its not a good idea to be willing to go to the felt on this flop heads up so check raising is probably a no no IMO unless I can firmnly put the villain on an overpair but then I can walk into a slowplayed one behind from one of the other 2 callers. I think there is more value in check calling and possilby keep more than just the preflop raiser in the hand since there are a lot cards to give me a staright with a redraw or any heart and spade gives me an enormous draw on the turn.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Since I'm a 45/55 dog to a flopped set its not a good idea to be willing to go to the felt on this flop heads up so check raising is probably a no no

I'm still not sure how best to play this hand but I disagree with this. If you get it in as a 45/55 dog when he has a set, but snap off a big continuation bet otherwise, then check raising will be profitable overall.

The real trouble is a) there is some money behind if you check raise, so you won't be all in b) the players in between. One of them can call you with a better draw, or even a worse draw that can outplay you on fourth street due to having position. Perhaps the stacks are just shallow enough that check raising is still OK, but I don't really like it, and would hate it if you had an extra 50BB.

RoundTower

Oh and folding this hand preflop OOP is fine, but I would call every time.

fuzzbox

RoundTower: I like a check/raise. We have a big draw, but we are not sure which outs are good. I check/raise precisely to get players behind me to fold some draws that might interfere with mine, that they might play for one pot sized bet.
Check/raise represents a set, so should also fold a lot of hands that we would like to fold (like bottom set, twopair).
We dont mind if AAxx plays for his stack, but we would like to get a CB from him before we ask him to fold, and if he plays, then its not a problem, because we are favoured.
I dont have a problem pushing most turn cards, because I have so many outs, so I will get the right odds no matter what.

Basically - Im trying to fold a lot of hands this way, rather than try to hit. With a better draw, I might check/call to invite more players in.


In loose games, where all draws/twopair/sets call even against a bet and a check-raise, then I like to lead through the field, to see where I am before I commit.