A9 on the small blind

Shortstack

I am at the final table of the $109 FO on Party, 8 left from 746, I am second in chips but there are only 2 big blinds between me and 8th. 1st is $16k and 8th $1.5k. The chip leader is v. aggressive and got his lead getting very lucky with 77 vs AA - see wow thread. He has just over double my chips and is sat directly to my left.

Blinds are now 15k/30k with a 750 ante. I have not played a hand at the final table and have dropped from 375k to 275k in the process.

It is folded around to me in the Small blind and I have A9, Chip leader is Big blind. I push. Right or Wrong?

Waylander

I think it is the right play, but I sense a two live undercards with one of his hitting coming.

Shortstack

Waylander wrote:

I think it is the right play, but I sense a two live undercards with one of his hitting coming.

Not a bead beat post - he called with A10. I don't want to fold it and any raise I am pot committed.

fuzzbox

Looks good.

Waylander

That is just unlucky, I think. Folded round so it is effectively a heads up hand, and I think you were right to push rather then a smaller raise.

NickyOD

If you're second in chips of 8 remaining this is a definite fold. You're not short enough yet to be pushing into the chipleader with A9.

Ollieboy

This is an area were I've a bit of a leak in my own game, when I'm in the sb and have a good hand, I always get myself into trouble. I've been knock out of tourneys so many times with a hand like this and I push hoping to pick up the blinds and run into pocket pairs etc.

Even if you had flat called, he would have put you all in and if he hadn't and a Ace came on the flop, you were gone anyway.

A raise is correct, but how much do you want to risk your whole tourney on A9

I've start to flat call in this position, depending on the player and his stack size. If you had flat called and he went all in, you could have got away from it, but its very hard and more a what if question.

Pushing is fine and I would think most people would have made the same play here.

cardshark202

NickyOD wrote:

If you're second in chips of 8 remaining this is a definite fold. You're not short enough yet to be pushing into the chipleader with A9.

I assume this was a joke. You're not suggesting to fold the SB holding A9 with only the BB to act are you? Thats ridiculous. If you won't play A9 here what would you do with AJ or say KQ? Would you fold both of these too cos "you're not short enough yet to be pushing into the chipleader"? You have less than 10bbs, and unless you like limping up the ladder I think this is a clear push. in fact I would push with an awful lot less then A9 here.

Mike, you were unlucky to run into a bigger ace, I think the push was fine.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

I assume this was a joke. You're not suggesting to fold the SB holding A9 with only the BB to act are you? Thats ridiculous. If you won't play A9 here what would you do with AJ or say KQ? Would you fold both of these too cos "you're not short enough yet to be pushing into the chipleader"? You have less than 10bbs, and unless you like limping up the ladder I think this is a clear push. in fact I would push with an awful lot less then A9 here.

Mike, you were unlucky to run into a bigger ace, I think the push was fine.

Im with Sharky.

Dont forget there is 750 * 8 (6k) + 15k + 30k out there. 51k total.

FIFTY ONE.

Our stack is 275k. Winning this pot without a fight will increase our stack by about 20%.

You have an Ace, with a good kicker, its just you and the big blind. I'm moving in.

Shortstack

NickyOD wrote:

If you're second in chips of 8 remaining this is a definite fold. You're not short enough yet to be pushing into the chipleader with A9.

Normally this would be my action when I am second in chips but I felt that 2nd was irrelevant as I have 9 BB's and 8th has 6 BB's. I have already leaked 100k by folding garbage. I think I was unlucky he maybe had the bottom end of his calling range, he was aggressive but I had not seen him make any gambling calls.

I thought this was a good structured tournie, the 3000 starting chips gives a bit of play early on but I thought Party would have got rid of the hand for hand 10 out from a money change. Thankfully the bubble did not last long but then hand for hand started again with 30 left and continued all the way to final table wasting horrendous amounts of time.

It was the first tournie I have played on party for over a year. I may play a few more now, the standard is brutal. Of course cracking AA with JJ helped once we were in the money

ianmc38

I think the call with AT was probably a little loose and must be at the bottom end of this guys calling range. 1.5k for 8th in such a big tourney seems ridiculous. I got more for 22nd on Tribecas $54 buy-in event.

Gholimoli

first of all unlucky Mike as he made a donkey call .
this is deffo a though spot but i would not push here against the only stack that can bust me.
if your playing this to win then a push is fine.
however i dont think if your playing to move up in the money(and i assume every position here that you move up will give you considerable $$$)
Assuming he will call with 99+,AJ+ then your in a very bad shape if he calls.
if he doesn’t call you collect 45K which will not do that much for your winning chances i dont think but if you loose it then your gone.
if this was a satellite then by all means push but you have a $$$ to gain by simply watching others which have smaller stacks than you bust.
i would raise this and fold to his over the top reraise .
you have to see this from his point of view as well ,your the only stack that can cripple him and he knows this so if he comes over the top of your raise you can be confident that he has you beat.

Waylander

A9 heads up should not be folded, without a good read, and this is effectively a heads up hand.

5starpool

I did this exact same thing with A9 before when on the bubble in the Fitz scalps. I had been chip lead but overplaying hands and running into better ones meant I bubbled.

Sometimes when you are playing to win you will just run into the wrong thing. I don't think you did anything wrong here, and I am convinced you would do the same again yourself.

Hectorjelly

The AT made a standard call, and this was a standard push. This is similar to having KK vs AA in a 50bb game; you are supposed to go broke. Folding AT to a push there would actually be horrible unless mike was playing super tight.

Raising and folding to a push is pretty good if you are trying to lose.

Gholi he has a random hand - you have a hand that is in the top 20%. So 4/5 you should take down the blinds (and this is assuming he never calls with a worse hand). 1/5 of the time you get all in with an equity of about 40 - 50% (on average). Do you see how this is a profitable push?

To be honest I think anyone who thinks this isnt a push, and this isnt a standard call isnt understanding the difference that occurs when stacks get short in tournaments. (thats me being polite)

Ollieboy

Gholimoli wrote:

first of all unlucky Mike as he made a donkey call .
this is deffo a though spot but i would not push here against the only stack that can bust me.
if your playing this to win then a push is fine.
however i dont think if your playing to move up in the money(and i assume every position here that you move up will give you considerable $$$)
Assuming he will call with 99+,AJ+ then your in a very bad shape if he calls.
if he doesn’t call you collect 45K which will not do that much for your winning chances i dont think but if you loose it then your gone.
if this was a satellite then by all means push but you have a $$$ to gain by simply watching others which have smaller stacks than you bust.
i would raise this and fold to his over the top reraise .
you have to see this from his point of view as well ,your the only stack that can cripple him and he knows this so if he comes over the top of your raise you can be confident that he has you beat.

I dont know how you can call it a Donkey call, a all in in the sb means your either bluffing, or want to steal the blinds or have a small pocket pair, where you dont want a caller, your telling the player in the BB, that you dont want him to call, so he as to fancy his chances with A10. With there been so much between all the players, the blinds were a big gain.

I know a lot of pros and top players would make this move with any A and gamble....

I know a player called Gholimoli on PP, that does it all the time.lol

But I agree in general, at this stage of a game, I would have laydown A10, but I can understand his calling.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

The AT made a standard call, and this was a standard push. This is similar to having KK vs AA in a 50bb game; you are supposed to go broke. Folding AT to a push there would actually be horrible unless mike was playing super tight.

Raising and folding to a push is pretty good if you are trying to lose.

Gholi he has a random hand - you have a hand that is in the top 20%. So 4/5 you should take down the blinds (and this is assuming he never calls with a worse hand). 1/5 of the time you get all in with an equity of about 40 - 50% (on average). Do you see how this is a profitable push?

To be honest I think anyone who thinks this isnt a push, and this isnt a standard call isnt understanding the difference that occurs when stacks get short in tournaments. (thats me being polite)

i understad what your saying about him having a random hand and your prob right this would be a push.however i dont get what you say about 1/5 i will have an avarage equity of 40-50%.
if we put his calling range on 99+,AT+ then surely on avarage our equity is less than what you suggested.
and i dont think his calling range would be any wider than that do you?

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

i understad what your saying about him having a random hand and your prob right this would be a push.however i dont get what you say about 1/5 i will have an avarage equity of 40-50%.
if we put his calling range on 99+,AT+ then surely on avarage our equity is less than what you suggested.
and i dont think his calling range would be any wider than that do you?

He called with AT so I doubt he is folding A9, KQ, A7s, 66 and so on. Against the top 20% of hands you are 47% to win. Against your range your equity is about 27%, which sucks obv but its still profitable. Its profitable to push any two cards here, and the tighter his range the better!

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

He called with AT so I doubt he is folding A9, KQ, A7s, 66 and so on. Against the top 20% of hands you are 47% to win. Against your range your equity is about 27%, which sucks obv but its still profitable. Its profitable to push any two cards here, and the tighter his range the better!

HJ i know from cEV your right.
however from $EV would pushing with any two or A9 or the likes still be profitable.
i mean when we talk about profit and say there is about 1K between 8th and 6th (i donno if thats the case but suppose) would it still be correct to push with that range?

loosecannon

i'm afraid to say i don't like the push here at all, i may be completely wrong but i wouldn't push with any ace rag at this point, esp when it's for all my stack (i include A9 as an ace-rag hand). I have done so before and been found out, there are very few hands out there that you are really dominating and considering the prize structure will be likely to increase a lot as you progress place by place, my play is a limp in here!

laugh if you will but that's the way i would play it in this situation, try to take the agression out of the hand, limp and see where he's at, if he makes a big raise i fold (whether he's bluffing or not makes no difference as your A9 dominates so little)

keep going and you'll find a better spot, hopefully against one of the shorter stacks

also, please note this is not a donkey call he made, in fact it would have been a donkey fold

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

The AT made a standard call, and this was a standard push. This is similar to having KK vs AA in a 50bb game; you are supposed to go broke. Folding AT to a push there would actually be horrible unless mike was playing super tight.

Raising and folding to a push is pretty good if you are trying to lose.

Gholi he has a random hand - you have a hand that is in the top 20%. So 4/5 you should take down the blinds (and this is assuming he never calls with a worse hand). 1/5 of the time you get all in with an equity of about 40 - 50% (on average). Do you see how this is a profitable push?

To be honest I think anyone who thinks this isnt a push, and this isnt a standard call isnt understanding the difference that occurs when stacks get short in tournaments. (thats me being polite)

You're saying all this without knowing the payout structure. Generally the payouts at final tables on Party in large multis are not very flat.

If he is 2nd in chips of 8 players remaining then there are obviously several players who are already blinded down to nothing which means you are likely to find spots than pushing into the chip leader's BB and even if you don't you are still likely to move up the payouts by default. Heads up with A9 or not, there is more you need to consider. If the payout structure is flat, ie not much difference between 3rd and 8th I push here every time.

Waylander

Nicky he has already pointed out that although he is second, 8th place is still only 2BB's behind him. Loosecannon if you take the aggression out of a heads up game you are very unlikely to win. This is a hand between the two blinds therefore is essentially heads up. Similarly, I do not think the call was a bad call.

Bp!

Gholimoli wrote:

first of all unlucky Mike as he made a donkey call .
this is deffo a though spot but i would not push here against the only stack that can bust me.
if your playing this to win then a push is fine.
however i dont think if your playing to move up in the money(and i assume every position here that you move up will give you considerable $$$)
Assuming he will call with 99+,AJ+ then your in a very bad shape if he calls.
if he doesn’t call you collect 45K which will not do that much for your winning chances i dont think but if you loose it then your gone.
if this was a satellite then by all means push but you have a $$$ to gain by simply watching others which have smaller stacks than you bust.
i would raise this and fold to his over the top reraise .
you have to see this from his point of view as well ,your the only stack that can cripple him and he knows this so if he comes over the top of your raise you can be confident that he has you beat.

Gholimoli Im pretty sure you would have played the A9 the exact same and (if the prize money didnt effect you) make the call with A 10 pretty easily;)

I think your playin hindsight too much IMO

Daithio

The push is fine, the call is far from automatic though. There are very few hands that A10 is in good shape against, A9 is one of the only ones actually. It's almost certainly gonna be a coinflip. When your chip leader with 8 left in a multi with people hanging on to jump up the money, a coinflip is not something you want to get involved in for 2/3 of your chips. Terrible call IMO.

NickyOD

Daithio wrote:

The push is fine, the call is far from automatic though. There are very few hands that A10 is in good shape against, A9 is one of the only ones actually. It's almost certainly gonna be a coinflip. When your chip leader with 8 left in a multi with people hanging on to jump up the money, a coinflip is not something you want to get involved in for 2/3 of your chips. Terrible call IMO.

I tend to agree. which makes the push look a lot better than the call.

NickyOD

Waylander wrote:

Nicky he has already pointed out that although he is second, 8th place is still only 2BB's behind him. Loosecannon if you take the aggression out of a heads up game you are very unlikely to win. This is a hand between the two blinds therefore is essentially heads up. Similarly, I do not think the call was a bad call.

I missed that. If the stacks are all basically the same then a push probably right.

Bp!

I dont think his call is all that bad here. Hes a known aggressive player who watched everyone fold and the small blind push. He has double the chips of everyone else and not the worse starting hand, here he has a chance to take a good lead on everyone else and if he takes a shot and missed hes still in good shape. I think he played to win and make a risky but not a bad call , no EP raise , just the small blind took a shot..in this scenario i think im callin too

Iceman78

I think that the push was a good move here. Not too sure about the call though as I would not be willing to risk most of my stack on A10 if chip leader in a big tourney unless i was the one pushing.

Only problem with the push is that it is against the one player who can afford to call with a marginal hand. Im not a big fan of raising the chip leader when on a final table without a big hand as they will often call with marginal hands.

I have used the push before here but would probably just limp in against the chip leader and fold if he pushes but it would all depend on his style of play and how aggressive he has been throughout the tourney.

Shortstack

Lots of interesting replies, thanks folks. I was pretty sure I did the right thing, the next jump was +$500 and I have never played just to crawl up the prize money. I did however plan to play tight up until a few more busted but I am not going to miss an opportunity to increase my stack by 20%. Obviously if I had known he had AT I would not have made this play. I think most times he has a hand he cannot call with.

I cannot raise and fold to him because he is overly aggressive post flop, for the same reason I cannot limp as if he raises I am ahead/not far behind a lot of his range.

I am not so sure he made the right call based on my tightness from the final table and also we were on the same table with 27 left and the only hands he saw me play was KK which was against his JJ and we both hit a set on the flop and an AK vs AQ coup. However c'est la vie.

Bp!

Thats interesting, i was wondering had you been playin with him for long, then his call here with A 10 really is a gamble, you being in the SB was probably the deciding factor and put you down on the steal. There was no escaping going broke here i dont think

nikorami

something I talked about before. IMHO i think it was a bad push because of the variables other than cards. The guy is aggressive, he is feeling lucky and maybe overconfident and not willing to give in to much. I think with 10x BB you still had enough play and could have taken out a different BB or maybe had a monster hand. Aside from cards I don't think the situation was right.

Gholimoli

Bp! wrote:

Gholimoli Im pretty sure you would have played the A9 the exact same and (if the prize money didnt effect you) make the call with A 10 pretty easily;)

I think your playin hindsight too much IMO

agree

Gholimoli

nikorami wrote:

something I talked about before. IMHO i think it was a bad push because of the variables other than cards. The guy is aggressive, he is feeling lucky and maybe overconfident and not willing to give in to much. I think with 10x BB you still had enough play and could have taken out a different BB or maybe had a monster hand. Aside from cards I don't think the situation was right.

now that i really thing about it:
folding is out of the question.
flat calling is out of the question your just asking to be raised and unless your planning on reraise which is not good play here .
any raise has you pretty much pot commited so may as well apply max pressure with a push.
i dont agree with all this talk about how confident he is or not be willing to give in to much at all.we have all been there on the BB,you face an all in from the SB and you look at your cards,as much as you hate it you will have to lay it down more often than not simply cuz the cards dictate it that way.
i initially said that the call was a donkey call.but im gonna have to take that back as well.it really wasnt at all.

RoundTower

I think you should have posted the hand without mentioning what cards you held. I would push with any two cards here. I think I would fold as the BB, if this is the first hand you've played I can afford to give you the benefit of the doubt. I would call with AJ.

HJ, is this too tight? Is AT really a standard call here? What about A9? 55?

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

I think you should have posted the hand without mentioning what cards you held. I would push with any two cards here. I think I would fold as the BB, if this is the first hand you've played I can afford to give you the benefit of the doubt. I would call with AJ.

HJ, is this too tight? Is AT really a standard call here? What about A9? 55?

It really depends on who is pushing, to a tight player who is not going to push without a real hand then obv its probably a fold, but considering we would both be likely to push any 2 cards here, and most people are pushing any ace I think its a call without a specific read on the opponent. 55 I think is very close, Id probably call. Its a couple of % worse against a random hand I think.

ocallagh

when the avg stack is less than 10BB, then pushing on the button and the SB (and prob the cut off) with any two is fine IMO. A9 is a monster in the SB Mike, you just got ul (again!!).