What is the UK?

LordSutch

It has come to my attention recently that as far as Irish people are concerned there appears to be several understandings of what the term 'UK' means - and I am curious to know why there is such confusion here as to what constitutes the make-up of the UK! - Examples: Vodafone ireland says;- "Roaming charges in Northern Ireland or the UK" but what does that mean? has the North left the UK secretly? or what about sailing to the UK with Irish Ferries! shouldnt that be sailing to Britain with Irish ferries........... then you have people saying things like "I am going to the UK for the weekend! but what does that mean? Scotland? Cornwall? Belfast? Essex? I mean to say why cant Irish people just say for example "I am off to Manchester for the weekend"; Irish Radio & TV can be just as bad also: Remember the Bunsfield Oil depot Explosions a couple of months ago in North London (near Luton), well it was reported on several Irish radio Stations at the time that "There have been large explosions heard in the UK", which could basically mean anywhere!

Can anybody shed any light on why many Irish people dont understand what the UK is? (all explanations welcome).

**Timbuk2**

It means United Kingdom

Basically it has the same meaning as Britain.

Why do people say going to the uk instead of somewhere, like Manchester??

Well why do people say they are going to Dublin instead of going to River Valley, Swords

Ya get what I am saying

LordSutch

I think you will find Timbuk2, that there is a difference between Britain and the UK .......................

is_that_so

Britain is the "mainland". :rolleyes: The UK includes Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc.

samb

I think the media is only reflecting Irish peoples generally poor geography. This is the fault of whoever devises the curriculum for primary school and pre-junior cert geography.
We teach our kids demographics/case studies etc but don't get out maps and teach them places. Its good to know a bit of detail about demographics, industries and natural resources of places. But in only looking at a few and never looking at global maps and maps of countries outside Ireland, our geography sylabbus fails miserably.
I did geography till leaving, but a almost completely self-taught.

Zebra3

UK=United Kingdom of Great :rolleyes: Britain and Northern Ireland

And yes I do find it wierd that people say "I'm going to the UK". Do they mean driving to Newry or getting a plane to London? It's so vague. Maybe they are just dying for you to ask them about their trip.

LordSutch

The Isle of Man is not part of the UK and neither are the Channel Islands!

Duiske

is_that_so wrote:

Britain is the "mainland". :rolleyes: The UK includes Northern Ireland, Isle of Man etc.

Yep....Great Britain is England, Scotland and Wales. United Kingdom is Great Britain including N.Ireland. Not sure about Isle of Man. Just going by passport.

mcgarnicle

People say they are going to America, going to Spain, going to France etc. etc. don't get so uptight about it. The reason they say they are going to UK is cos most people don't care what part they are going to, if you want to know exactly where then just ask them. When some stranger asks you where you are from do you just say what county or do you give the street you live on?

**Timbuk2**

Oh sorry

I meant Great Britian... must have been my headache from last night :rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

If you think Irish people have difficulty understanding the concept of the UK, you should try asking people in Britain what the UK is. You would be surprised at how much people have it wrong. The amount of times people I have met who have no idea of what constitutes Britain & the UK is startling.

Diorraing

Basically, the UK was established with the Act of Union in 1800/1801. It encompassed the islands of Ireland and Britain. The Act was passed against the will of the Irish people - the Irish parliament consented as a result of bribes, promises and threats by the chief secretary Robert Stewart of Castlereagh. As the Irish parliament was unrepresentitve of the people it cannot be said that the Union was established democratically. It was invalid from the moment it was conceived.
The Irish Parliament Act of 1920 and the subsequent treaty saw the Irish free state leave the union. At present the Union consists of the island of Britain and the occupied counties of Northern Ireland.
For a full history check out:http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/The_Union

zuma

Diorraing wrote:

The Irish Parliament Act of 1920 and the subsequent treaty saw the Irish free state leave the union. At present the Union consists of the island of Britain and the occupied counties of Northern Ireland.
For a full history check out:http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/The_Union

Oh not again!

As of right now...20-03-06 @02:00(got to go to bed!) the majority of Northern Irelands population wish to stay part of the UK!!!

Live with it!

ivan087

i dont see the problem. the UK is one country made up of several regions. most people, when they are going somewhere, will just state the country they are going to, not the region or the city. unless its somewhere like new york, london, paris, etc.

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

At present the Union consists of the island of Britain and the occupied counties of Northern Ireland.

I thought you told me you werent a republican... Not that it matters but now that I know,you'll understand that I'll take your rumblings,(dressed as neutral mar dhea) about posts that appear to be anti republican with a pinch of salt

As regards the term "occupied" well if we are looking for a legal definition, then the word occupied does definitely not apply as according to the united nations,the six counties are legally the territory of the United Kingdom.

Aspirationally,well its a different matter

Diorraing

Earthman wrote:

I thought you told me you werent a republican... Not that it matters but now that I know,you'll understand that I'll take your rumblings,(dressed as neutral mar dhea) about posts that appear to be anti republican with a pinch of salt

As regards the term "occupied" well if we are looking for a legal definition, then the word occupied does definitely not apply as according to the united nations,the six counties are legally the territory of the United Kingdom.

Aspirationally,well its a different matter

Oh, I'm a republican! Make no mistake about that. Its just I don't support SF. I don't complain about anti-republican threads either, I just don't think its productive when people harp on about SF "being scumbags and knackers and thugs". I'd prefer, rather than attacking their members, attacking their policies.
The UN accept the 6 counties as legally the territory of the UK. That begs the question when exactly did it become the legal territory of the UK because as I have already shown its conception was certainly illegitimate. The Treaty recognised it but that doesn't mean it was legitimate.

SCULLY

Why do people have a problem with someone saying ' I'm off to the U.K. ' yet it seems fine to say ' I'm going to the States ' which is far far vaguer?

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

The UN accept the 6 counties as legally the territory of the UK. That begs the question when exactly did it become the legal territory of the UK because as I have already shown its conception was certainly illegitimate. The Treaty recognised it but that doesn't mean it was legitimate.

It doesnt beg any question really.The facts are the facts whereas aspirations are aspirations.
Going back to 1800 talking about the anexation of Ireland into the union is a non sequitur given that it was done under the rules of the time.
The country was divided under the rules of the time in the 1920's aswell but this time by the decree of a democratically elected government of the entire then United Kingdom of GB and Ireland.

What was it again well over 90% of the population voted to put into our constitution recently? Yes the Republic of Ireland is constitutionally the 26 counties untill a majority of the six want it otherwise or words to that effect.
Anything else is aspirational and not a description of the situation as it stands in law.

All those things are of legal standing-Argueing otherwise couldnt possibly stand up.

homeOwner

What really confuses me about the whole thing is when it comes to the Olympics, it seems to be the only "country" that isnt a country - collectively England, Scotland and Wales and N.Ireland are entered as Great Britian. They use the Union Jack (which is the flag of Great Britian) but they use the national anthem of England i.e. God Save the Queen! Do they not have an anthem for GB?

Diorraing

Earthman wrote:

Going back to 1800 talking about the anexation of Ireland into the union is a non sequitur given that it was done under the rules of the time

Corruption, threats, bribery were the rules of the time :eek: No, I don't think so! Even if they were, it would still be invalid because those rules weren't voted for by the Irish people. Nothing about the Act of Union was democratic!

What was it again well over 90% of the population voted to put into our constitution recently? Yes the Republic of Ireland is constitutionally the 26 counties untill a majority of the six want it otherwise or words to that effect.
Anything else is aspirational and not a description of the situation as it stands in law.

Why would we aspire to a United Ireland if we didn't feel that it belonged to us in the first place? Doesn't the fact that we aspire to a United Ireland suggest that we see the current situation as being wrong?
If Germany had an article in its constitution aspiring to gain control over Alsace-Lorraine they would not be recognising the legitimacy of French control there

ivan087

homeOwner wrote:

What really confuses me about the whole thing is when it comes to the Olympics, it seems to be the only "country" that isnt a country - collectively England, Scotland and Wales and N.Ireland are entered as Great Britian. They use the Union Jack (which is the flag of Great Britian) but they use the national anthem of England i.e. God Save the Queen! Do they not have an anthem for GB?

the UK is one country. northern ireland, scotland and wales have given up their independence to be part of one country. this country has the queen of england as their head of state. in a way the UK has england at its core, or as its ruling country, so they use their national anthem for the national anthem of the UK. wow it is confusing!

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

Corruption, threats, bribery were the rules of the time :eek: No, I don't think so! Even if they were, it would still be invalid because those rules weren't voted for by the Irish people. Nothing about the Act of Union was democratic!

You could apply that to every single law enacted at the time then,including some that are still on the statute book today.
It would still be irrelevant to the legal description of the UK.

Why would we aspire to a United Ireland if we didn't feel that it belonged to us in the first place? Doesn't the fact that we aspire to a United Ireland suggest that we see the current situation as being wrong?
If Germany had an article in its constitution aspiring to gain control over Alsace-Lorraine they would not be recognising the legitimacy of French control there

I'm unsure as to the point you are trying to make here.
The only comment I'll make is that aspirations shouldn't just be territorial.

Anyway the question has been answered,I'm doubtfull the purpose of the thread was to discuss the north.

Regarding the vodafone add mentioned earlier in the thread... It's common for the media to use the term "in NI or the UK"-phone in's or text competitions would be another example where the dj will say text 123456 if you are in NI or the UK.
It's a pc habit to avoid regarding NI as being in the UK-even though it is.

Litcagral

ArthurF wrote:

It has come to my attention recently that as far as Irish people are concerned there appears to be several understandings of what the term 'UK' means - and I am curious to know why there is such confusion here as to what constitutes the make-up of the UK! - Examples: Vodafone ireland says;- "Roaming charges in Northern Ireland or the UK" but what does that mean? has the North left the UK secretly? or what about sailing to the UK with Irish Ferries! shouldnt that be sailing to Britain with Irish ferries........... then you have people saying things like "I am going to the UK for the weekend! but what does that mean? Scotland? Cornwall? Belfast? Essex? I mean to say why cant Irish people just say for example "I am off to Manchester for the weekend"; Irish Radio & TV can be just as bad also: Remember the Bunsfield Oil depot Explosions a couple of months ago in North London (near Luton), well it was reported on several Irish radio Stations at the time that "There have been large explosions heard in the UK", which could basically mean anywhere!

Can anybody shed any light on why many Irish people dont understand what the UK is? (all explanations welcome).

The UK consists of the island of Britain and part of the island of Ireland.

The UK Dependencies consist of Guernsey, Jersey, Gibraltar and the Isle of Man.

The UK Overseas Territories consist of Anguilla, Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Montserrat, Turks and Caicos Islands, Bermuda, Falklands Islands, Pitcairn Island and St Helena.

LordSutch

homeOwner wrote:

What really confuses me about the whole thing is when it comes to the Olympics, it seems to be the only "country" that isnt a country - collectively England, Scotland and Wales and N.Ireland are entered as Great Britian. They use the Union Jack (which is the flag of Great Britian) but they use the national anthem of England i.e. God Save the Queen! Do they not have an anthem for GB?

In the Olympic Games there is always team (GB)+(NI) or "Great Britain & Northern Ireland" which represents the whole of the UK, and the flag of the UK is the Union Flag which is made up of the cross of St David, the cross of St George & the Cross of St Patrick, Wales is a Principality so its not represented in the make-up of the Union flag! as regards the Anthem 'God save the Queen' this is the National Anthem of the UK and or Britain.

Currently the Commonwealth Games is being held in (Melbourne-Australia) and the UK has been split-up into individual teams/ England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, and the Isle of Man.

A Dub in Glasgo

There is no way that international football competitions like the European Championships and the World Cup that the UK should get 4 teams entering. There should be 1 UK team.

rsynnott

homeOwner wrote:

What really confuses me about the whole thing is when it comes to the Olympics, it seems to be the only "country" that isnt a country - collectively England, Scotland and Wales and N.Ireland are entered as Great Britian. They use the Union Jack (which is the flag of Great Britian) but they use the national anthem of England i.e. God Save the Queen! Do they not have an anthem for GB?

Actually, England doesn't have a national anthem.

The UK is unambiguous; you do however sometimes see strange usage like 'UK and Northern Ireland'.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

There is no way that international football competitions like the European Championships and the World Cup that the UK should get 4 teams entering. There should be 1 UK team.

Why? There are four separate (non-soveriegn) countries involved.

Diorraing

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

There is no way that international football competitions like the European Championships and the World Cup that the UK should get 4 teams entering. There should be 1 UK team.

They'd be unstoppable! Oh wait, it'd just be the English team and maybe Shaun Maloney;)

ziggy

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ivan087

But the UK is one country. why should one country have 4 seperate teams. its the only country to have this. Look at the former yugoslavia. it had many countries under its union, but only one team. and the kingdom of spain is similar to the UK, but there is no national team for the basques or the catalans. the UK cant have its cake and eat it. ive heard UEAFA and FIFA moan about this and hopefully some day it will be changed.

ivan087

ziggy67 wrote:

Also there are more teams than ever with the breakup of USSR & Yugoslavia etc. Do these teams have a right to exist in your eyes??
QUOTE]

yes they do, because they are independent nations. only independent nations should be involved. if not, why cant the basques play football, they have more independence then wales, their own parliment, culture, language, etc.

ziggy

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ivan087

ziggy67 wrote:

And Wales doesn't have its own Parliment, culture or language???

Do you really think countries that are a few years old should be allowed but Scotland & England who played the very 1st international shouldn't?

I think FIFA's beef with the home nations is that they each have a seat at the top table there which i agree should be changed.

Finally why not have a European team? Aren't we all under the European Parliment?

wales doesnt have its own parliment, its an assembly. an assembly has slightly more powers then a county council. there isnt much of a welsh culture. its been a principality of england since the 1100s. yes it has a language and thats about it. your missing my point. at the end of the day wales and scotlands are regions of the UK, so is northern ireland.

you asked why new independent nations should have a team before scotland etc. because they are a nation!!! EQUAL to france, germany, uk, and ireland. my question is this - why should wales (for example), who are officially not a nation have a team over a region like basque or brittany or hundreds of other regions. there should be rules for everyone, why should certain places have different rules. not really fair is it?

jcoote

*Wrong User Account*

ziggy

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ivan087

ziggy67 wrote:

Can i just ask what you make of the Granny rule? I am dead against it which probably makes me look hypocritical- tough on nationality, soft on nation status

i think the granny rule is a load of balls when you have players like tony cascarino who doesnt have a drop of irish blood playing for this country. im not in the slight bit nationalistic but i think when it comes to playing for a country, it should be the one that you were born in or have lived in for most of your life. it really makes football a joke and ireland more of an english b-side then anything. id rather see a team of 11 irish lads giving it a 110% then a bunch of english rejects.

arggh im really in a ranting mood today, 6 hours off the fags!!!:mad:

axer

rsynnott wrote:

Why? There are four separate (non-soveriegn) countries involved.

Nope there ain't. They are not countries in any form. I agree they should be only allowed one team in any event but I guess that is up to the event organisers.

Earthhorse

Surely the United Kingdom is exactly that - a Kingdom. It just happens to be comprised of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

To the OP, when people use the term UK like that they are doing so casually and are not really concerned with technical definitions.

samb

SCULLY wrote:

Why do people have a problem with someone saying ' I'm off to the U.K. ' yet it seems fine to say ' I'm going to the States ' which is far far vaguer?

I suppose the follow up question to that is 'what states will you visit in the US' whilst if someone says they are off to UK the follow up question may be 'are you leaving this island?'

The Granny rule is difficult and generally I agree it is a load of nonsense. But defining nationality is not clear-cut.
e.g if you are born in Ireland and live here till your 4, then move to england and live there for 20years. What are you? culturally you are certainly English IMO but you can clain Irishness if you like. Does it matter what your parents are, or should it? Mine are both English (although they have now lived most of their lives in Ireland) but I am completely Irish IMO, I could get a Bristish passport if I wanted (maybe to go to oz again).
But yes, I grandparent Irish is nonsense.

axer

Earthhorse wrote:

Surely the United Kingdom is exactly that - a Kingdom. It just happens to be comprised of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The UK is a country comprised of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland - they are all parts of the UK but they themselves are not countries.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

rsynnott

axer wrote:

The UK is a country comprised of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland - they are all parts of the UK but they themselves are not countries.

They are strictly speaking (non-sovereign) nations. The UK is a unitary state.

Earthhorse

They are also referred to as constituent countries.

LordSutch

Earthhorse wrote:

Surely the United Kingdom is exactly that - a Kingdom. It just happens to be comprised of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

To the OP, when people use the term UK like that they are doing so casually and are not really concerned with technical definitions.

You have put your finger on the point Earthhorse "When people use the term UK they are doing so casually" and fair enough too! but that raises the point why do offical adverts on Radio/TV from Vodafone Ireland (for example) talk about roaming charges in the UK or Northern Ireland? personally speaking, I dont care if the North stays or leaves the UK (thats up to them) but its the confusion that seems to remain in every day speak even on the airwaves that baffles me, and I have even heard a member of the Dail talking about boarding a train from Britain to Scotland!

ivan087

ziggy67 wrote:

What about rugby then?
Should there be a UK team & should NI be part of it?

there are only 10 very good teams in rugby in which the UK nations are in that top 10. making a UK team would take away from rugby, weakening the spectacle and weakening the six nations. so there is no need. maybe in the future there could be a british team in which northern players could pick between britain and ireland.

Gurgle

Earthhorse wrote:

Surely the United Kingdom is exactly that - a Kingdom. It just happens to be comprised of the countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Yep UK is the kingdom - a political entity. Formerly 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland'. Now 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. (I'm not sure but the kingdom might include Gibralter)

The Brittish empire included the kingdom, this was essentially the heart of the empire but the kingdom never included (for example) India.

Great Britain is an Island, a geographical entity, the largest of the Brittish Isles. The island of Ireland being the second largest.

edit - Irish people hesitate to use the term 'Great Britain' because the word 'Great' invokes the idea 'Wonderfull' rather than 'Big'.

ziggy

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thejuggler

Does anyone know how Britain came to be called Great Britain? Should we call ourselves Fantastic Ireland? Perhaps other European Countries could join in We could have Super Spain, Fabulous France and Gigantic Germany.

Earthhorse

It's great meaning large or immense, they're using it in the pejorative sense.

murphaph

thejuggler wrote:

Does anyone know how Britain came to be called Great Britain? Should we call ourselves Fantastic Ireland? Perhaps other European Countries could join in We could have Super Spain, Fabulous France and Gigantic Germany.

years and years ago Britain was called Breton, but so was Brittany, so confusion arose. The sensible thing to do was to rename Britain to 'Great Britain' as it's a lot bigger than Brittany. That's all. It's no different to modern day Oberbayern (Upper Bavaria) being used to distinguish it from low lying parts of that state as it's the bit with the Alps in. Same with Saxony (Sachsen) and lower Saxony (Niedersachsen). Purely geographic terms-doesn't mean anyone's any better than anyone else.

ivan087

ziggy67 wrote:

So are you now saying that they are seperate nations then?

Is this not a double standard? If it is wrong to have 4 football teams then it should be wrong to have 4 rugby teams too.
It seems to me that if you do it for one sport you have to do it for them all.

yeah i get what you are saying and it is a double standard. but in terms of rugby - there are very few good teams out there at the moment. the top teams, say france or NZ, could be beaten by only a handful of teams - such as wales or scotland. so, in order to keep rugby exciting and a spectacle and to make the world cup a bit more exciting, there should be seperate welsh/scottish/english teams.

also, the UK would dominate rugby - having the pick of british and ulster players.

maybe in the future when rugby teams such as the USA, italy, etc get to a higher standard, then there should only be a british side.

samb

thejuggler wrote:

Does anyone know how Britain came to be called Great Britain? Should we call ourselves Fantastic Ireland? Perhaps other European Countries could join in We could have Super Spain, Fabulous France and Gigantic Germany.

Yes, it was the french normans who named it that. Just means bigger britany, greater in size.