[Article] Banned: No go for supertrucks on roads as well as tunnel

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/7649676?view=Eircomnet

Banned: No go for supertrucks on roads as well as tunnel
From:The Irish Independent
Friday, 17th March, 2006

Breda Heffernan and Frank Khan

SUPERTRUCKS will be banned from the country's roads, it was pledged last night.

Transport Minister Martin Cullen made the promise as Dublin City Council announced new traffic arrangements for the opening of the Port Tunnel.

The minister said the exact height restriction for so-called supertrucks had yet to be decided but it would be somewhere between 4m and 4.65m - the height of the tunnel.

Last night he told RTE's Prime Time: "You can take it for certain that I am minded from an Irish perspective to have a height restriction on trucks whether they are in Dublin or wherever.

"So there will be a countrywide restriction on the height of trucks in this country. The exact limit is yet to be decided, but clearly somewhere between 4m and the height of the port tunnel."

The height restriction would come into effect in or around the time the tunnel opened this summer. An exact date has yet to be set.

"I think it is beneficial to everybody that we bring clarity to that matter very quickly," said the minister.

The tunnel does not stretch to the 4.65m required by supertrucks which can be at least a foot taller.

Road safety experts have previously called for the banning of such lorries saying they pose major accident risks at road crossings and at many railway bridges.

There are currently around 1,000 supertrucks on Irish roads with some standing at over 4.9m tall.

Hauliers have already campaigned, without success, to have the roof of the port tunnel raised to accommodate supertrucks.

The Irish Road Haulage Association warned that some companies would have to double their fleet if they were forced to get rid of these lorries.

Dublin City Council planners yesterday announced new traffic arrangements for the opening of the tunnel.

As work nears completion on the multi-million euro project aimed at easing chronic congestion, the local authority has unveiled its traffic management arrangements for cars and other vehicles exiting or entering the city and port.

Approaching on the M1 from the north, drivers will see two lanes going underground into the tunnel and two surface lanes continuing on towards Collins Avenue into the city.

And to ensure a smooth transition for traffic merging with the M1 from the M50, a 1km long third lane is being provided.

This will run between the M50 and the Coolock Lane junctions on the M1, just north of the tunnel.

Traffic heading north out of the city will not have to merge immediately with the traffic emerging from the tunnel.

A 1km lane will allow this to take place gradually before the M50 junction.

The council also says most of the truck traffic will use the M1 and the northern sections of the M50 outside peak hours. And it claims trucks using the tunnel will only add 3pc more peak time traffic in each direction at the West Link toll plaza.

mdebets

Finally, they are banned everywhere else in Europe.

I love especially this quote

Irish Road Haulage Association wrote:

The Irish Road Haulage Association warned that some companies would have to double their fleet if they were forced to get rid of these lorries.

That would mean, they would have now trucks higher than 8 meters. I'll yet have do to see them.

Victor

mdebets wrote:

That would mean, they would have now trucks higher than 8 meters. I'll yet have do to see them.

Existing normal trucks can take one grocery cage in height. Super cubes can take two.

mdebets

Victor wrote:

Existing normal trucks can take one grocery cage in height. Super cubes can take two.

I don't understand this. Therefor, the Super cubes would need to be twice as high as the normal ones, what they aren't. Or there must be some considerable space free in the normal ones, which I can't believe, as this would be a waste of money in producing them and driving them around (the additional metal of the container around the space that is empty). Or am I missing something here?

murphaph

mdebets wrote:

Finally, they are banned everywhere else in Europe.

Except by our largest trading partner!

murphaph

mdebets wrote:

I don't understand this. Therefor, the Super cubes would need to be twice as high as the normal ones, what they aren't. Or there must be some considerable space free in the normal ones, which I can't believe, as this would be a waste of money in producing them and driving them around (the additional metal of the container around the space that is empty). Or am I missing something here?

No, you're not missing anything. Ever see a truck being unloaded of those wheeled cages Victor mentioned? There's loads of spare space above them. I presume supercubes have a two tier design to take advantage of the space. Essentially what's happening now is that national policy is being decided by a local mistake with the tunnel's design.

darkman2

The port tunnel WILL be a commuter route, as sure as apples fall off trees. This idea of it ridding the trucks from our streets was a con job all along and the real reason DCC have a toll on it is to make money.....no other reason. Trust me the toll will drop soon after it opens and the tunnel is empty for most of the day. If you read between the lines the Eastern Bypass will make it a commuter route anyway. So it will be a majority cars using it, not trucks. Of course had they the common sense they would have made it 4 lanes each way and built the whole eastern bypass in the first place obliterating a large part of our traffic problems in one go;)

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

Of course had they the common sense they would have made it 4 lanes each way and built the whole eastern bypass in the first place obliterating a large part of our traffic problems in one go;)

Or just moving them around. Traffic problems will likely never be sorted, the key is to provide commuters witha quality public transport alternative and then charge persistent car drivers punitively to get them off the busiest roads to allow industry to get goods efficiently from A to B, and thus sustain this little economy of ours.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Or just moving them around. Traffic problems will likely never be sorted, the key is to provide commuters witha quality public transport alternative and then charge persistent car drivers punitively to get them off the busiest roads to allow industry to get goods efficiently from A to B, and thus sustain this little economy of ours.

Thats not the type of half-baked solutions going for public transport over roads or vice versa. The Irish public dont accept that any longer. They want things done and done properly. Just sort out the mess. I genuinely could do better myself. Its all common sense, something lacking in the powers that be. Build the rail-links, super highways, bus lanes etc and stop fooling us around is what I say. PPl should be allowed use their cars on the best roads in the world and public transport should and can be the best in the world given our economic standing at the present time. There are no excuses anymore. We have the money, we just need the guts from our elected representatives;)

murphaph

I agree with your above post, but your post before that implied that a 4 lane superhighway under Dublin bay would "obliterate traffic problems", which it simply wouldn't.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

I agree with your above post, but your post before that implied that a 4 lane superhighway under Dublin bay would "obliterate traffic problems", which it simply wouldn't.

'a large part' it certainly would IMO. It works in many American cities. L.A and Pheonix are prime examples. Alot of traffic but it never stops, thats the main thing;)

murphaph

Ah, right, but would you really want to see that sort of roadbuilding in and around Dublin? It's pretty ghastly stuff. It might look all sexy in the movies but this is not southern California and that white conctrete quickly turns grey and reusted looking (check out the M8 through glasgow for what a US designed urban highway looks like in a european urban context-it ain't too pretty and can really tear the heart out of a city). To get to freeflowing traffic you have to go all-out, no building can be seen as sacred. Is that really what we want?

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Ah, right, but would you really want to see that sort of roadbuilding in and around Dublin? It's pretty ghastly stuff. It might look all sexy in the movies but this is not southern California and that white conctrete quickly turns grey and reusted looking (check out the M8 through glasgow for what a US designed urban highway looks like in a european urban context-it ain't too pretty and can really tear the heart out of a city). To get to freeflowing traffic you have to go all-out, no building can be seen as sacred. Is that really what we want?

Yes but it would be mostly underground. I aleady reckon the port tunnel is the longest 'motorway' under a city in Europe. So might aswell take it that step further. I have commented on what you say about the concrete myself before. Your right however they can look ugly in a wet european context. Ive been in California and seen it for myself and also Pheonix were a Highway goes right underneath the City centre and it works. Underground is the way to go;)

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Ah, right, but would you really want to see that sort of roadbuilding in and around Dublin? It's pretty ghastly stuff. It might look all sexy in the movies but this is not southern California and that white conctrete quickly turns grey and reusted looking (check out the M8 through glasgow for what a US designed urban highway looks like in a european urban context-it ain't too pretty and can really tear the heart out of a city). To get to freeflowing traffic you have to go all-out, no building can be seen as sacred. Is that really what we want?

Also the M50 upgrade freeflow for the N4 is cleverly done with little visual imperment due to the lack of fly overs. It will work well though:)

jesus_thats_gre

I know for a fact that Tesco Ireland spent in excess of 20 million on these trailers nearly 2 years ago and had to sell them on again..

SeanW

darkman2 wrote:

we just need the guts from our elected representatives;)

Unfortunately the only way you're going to get them is with surgical instruments. :eek:

NavanJunction1

Am I wrong in this?

Some years ago, the road truck lobby wanted trailer heights increased. There was a bit of a hu ha. The governments solution was to remove all height restrictions.

How can the government no be so brass neck-ed about this as they caused the problem by abolishing the height restriction themselves..?

A Dub in Glasgo

About time something was done about these trucks

mackerski

The tunnel does not stretch to the 4.65m required by supertrucks which can be at least a foot taller.

So that would make them how tall, then? Talk about mixing your metaphors...

Dermot

SeanW

well, I have to say it's about time the gov't got rid of supertrucks, the infrastructure just ain't able to deal with it. Not only the port tunnel but also many old bridges including railway bridges which are constantly getting hit by large trucks for the last few years.

murphaph

The UK has many times the number of low railway bridges and manages fine with supercubes though. it's a particularly irish solution to a problem of our own creation.

As for building all our superhighways underground, well that would be quite extraordinarily expensive and we simply have far better ways of getting people around than that.

monument

darkman2 wrote:

'a large part' it certainly would IMO. It works in many American cities. L.A and Pheonix are prime examples. Alot of traffic but it never stops, thats the main thing;)

LOL. I don’t like using the term 'LOL'. But really, I have to here. LA is an example of just why you should not just build roads till the cows come home, as such.

Ever sit in traffic in LA at rush hour? They’re just luck that the poor can’t afford cars, and a few others have the sense to use public transport.

jlang

Also, it's very rare that it's a supercube that has a bridge strike. Far more likely to be an overloaded flatbed or a low loader carrying a crane (eg on N7 last year). A supercube driver is well aware of the height of his vehicle - these other vehicles have variable and/or unmeasured heights - witness the cars with mattresses strapped to the roof that get stuck at the car lane at the toll booths on the M50

If supercube trucks can be used for distribution across the country, I think they should - so long as the routes they go on are capable of taking them, why not? If it'll reduce the number of trucks and journeys and drivers and costs etc required, it sounds great to me. They have the same weight restrictions as other trucks and generally don't reach the weight limit as they're used for lighter but bulkier stuff. There should be limits on them driving in the city during the day but they have their uses and it's stupid to restrict them just becuase of the stupidity over the bad design at the Port Tunnel.

BrianD

murphaph wrote:

The UK has many times the number of low railway bridges and manages fine with supercubes though. it's a particularly irish solution to a problem of our own creation.

Let's not get carried away here. The supercube issue is a red herring created by a specific interest group to prevent a HGV ban in the city. By highlighting the supercube trucks they are hoping for exemptions and the creation of other routes for HGV's through the city i.e not using the tunnel. If these are created then all trucks can use them and HGV's can avoid using the tunnel. The government has reacted badly by attempting to ban them and this has played into the hands of the lobby group.

Supercubes only account for the a fraction of the total trailer fleet in either Ireland or the UK. They are really only suitable for the transportation of goods that are bulky in nature but not heavy as the gross vehicle weight CAN NOT EXCEED that of a standard trailer i.e. 38 tonnes. So a supercube could not carry more goods than a fully laden 'standard' trailer.

the_syco

The funneh thing about the tunnel + the supertrucks is... the supertrucks would get stuck under alot of the bridges that go over our roads.

Litcagral

mdebets wrote:

I don't understand this. Therefor, the Super cubes would need to be twice as high as the normal ones, what they aren't. Or there must be some considerable space free in the normal ones, which I can't believe, as this would be a waste of money in producing them and driving them around (the additional metal of the container around the space that is empty). Or am I missing something here?

The floor on super cube trailers is not uniform in height. It drops to utilise the space between the landing legs and the rear axles and many of these trailers have much smaller wheels to maximise space above They do not have twice the capacity of a standard trailer but probably 1.5 times.

Litcagral

jlang wrote:

Also, it's very rare that it's a supercube that has a bridge strike. Far more likely to be an overloaded flatbed or a low loader carrying a crane (eg on N7 last year). QUOTE]




Re the bridge strike on the N7. I presume you are referring to the bridge at the begining of the motorway (southbound). I don't think that that incident was the fault of the driver. I'm open to correction on this but that bridge was 4.9 metres high. A motorway bridge should have a standard height of 5 metres and most truck drivers would know this. In this situation the truck would have cleared a 'proper' bridge but the driver was not to know that it was 10cm lower. There was no height warning sign on it (which I understand to be mandatory on bridges below 5 metres).

darkman2

monument wrote:

LOL. I don’t like using the term 'LOL'. But really, I have to here. LA is an example of just why you should not just build roads till the cows come home, as such.

Ever sit in traffic in LA at rush hour? They’re just luck that the poor can’t afford cars, and a few others have the sense to use public transport.

I have and it keeps moving, thats my point. Lots of cars but everything is freeflow so it moves unlike here. Too expensive.......then build it with the private sector. Problem solved. (with a proper contract of course).

Victor

Litcagral wrote:

Re the bridge strike on the N7. I presume you are referring to the bridge at the begining of the motorway (southbound).

No at Rathcoole. It took a chunk out of the bridge.

Litcagral

Victor wrote:

No at Rathcoole. It took a chunk out of the bridge.

Sorry Victor. Thanks for clarifying that.

BrianD

But that was not a "supercube" that struck the bridge at Rathcoole. It would seem it was a badly loaded crane or machine. If it was a supercube, the tuck and not the bridge would have come off the worst.

The bridge at the start of the M7 has been struck a number of times and is now signposted with a diversion via the on/off ramp for that exit. They seem to be doing something to that bridge at present. Not sure if it's being repaired or they plan to increase the clearance through some marvellous feat of engineering.

Litcagral wrote:

They do not have twice the capacity of a standard trailer but probably 1.5 times.

1,5 the volume but not 1.5 the capacity. They can not carry anymore than a fully laden standard trailer.

SeaSide

Victor wrote:

Existing normal trucks can take one grocery cage in height. Super cubes can take two.

Perhaps reduce the height of the grocery cage?

SeanW

SeaSide wrote:

Perhaps reduce the height of the grocery cage?

That would seem the more sensible option.

is_that_so

darkman2 wrote:

The port tunnel WILL be a commuter route, as sure as apples fall off trees. This idea of it ridding the trucks from our streets was a con job all along and the real reason DCC have a toll on it is to make money.....no other reason.

Eh No. Ireland is also the only country AFAIK (there may be others I am unaware of) that allows those things through the centres of cities. The tunnel has been paid for and was never designed to make money. Tunnels also have traffic restrictions based on emissions.
Not many people I know would pay an extra €100 a week+ to avoid the traffic but there will be some.

Trust me the toll will drop soon after it opens and the tunnel is empty for most of the day. If you read between the lines the Eastern Bypass will make it a commuter route anyway. So it will be a majority cars using it, not trucks. Of course had they the common sense they would have made it 4 lanes each way and built the whole eastern bypass in the first place obliterating a large part of our traffic problems in one go;)

But seeing as you have all the answers how much we have paid for your plan? Personally would be delighted to see the back of the super trucks.

darkman2

is_that_so wrote:

Eh No. Ireland is also the only country AFAIK (there may be others I am unaware of) that allows those things through the centres of cities. The tunnel has been paid for and was never designed to make money. Tunnels also have traffic restrictions based on emissions.
Not many people I know would pay an extra €100 a week+ to avoid the traffic but there will be some.



But seeing as you have all the answers how much we have paid for your plan? Personally would be delighted to see the back of the super trucks.

I dont mean this in the wrong way but that shows how gullable many Irish ppl are. The toll IS there to make money. Mark my words;)

is_that_so

darkman2 wrote:

I dont mean this in the wrong way but that shows how gullable many Irish ppl are. The toll IS there to make money. Mark my words;)

Ah sure you know best.

Victor

BrianD wrote:

1,5 the volume but not 1.5 the capacity. They can not carry anymore than a fully laden standard trailer.

If you are carrying breakfast cereals, volume is the deciding factor, not mass.

SeaSide wrote:

Perhaps reduce the height of the grocery cage?

But the size of the cage is a standard size, tied to the size of a multitude of boxes ....

SeaSide

Victor wrote:

But the size of the cage is a standard size, tied to the size of a multitude of boxes ....

Which are all related to the golden number or is it Fibinachi or perhaps even the knights templar are involved where Dan Brown when you need him

Victor

Banned

MrPudding

mdebets wrote:

I love especially this quote



That would mean, they would have now trucks higher than 8 meters. I'll yet have do to see them.

OK, lets say you need to transport 60 cages. I am not sure of the capacity of the trucks but stay with me here. Let imagine a super cube can take 60 but a normal truck can only take 40. If you remove the supertruck this leaves you with 20 cages to transport. Given that it is not possible to buy half a truck you will need another full truck to take the remaining 20 cages. So even though the super cube does not take double what a normal truck takes you will still need a whole normal truck to carry what is left.

I do not think it is unreasonable to suggest that if super cubes are removed that more trucks will be required.

It is also interesting to note that AnPost bought six super cubes last year or the year before in order to transport mail between the regional sorting centres. I suppose they will have to be written off and replace with a larger number of new truck in order to carry the same *volume* of mail. Another waste of taxpayers money by incompetant polititians.

MrP

Victor

MrPudding wrote:

OK, lets say you need to transport 60 cages. I am not sure of the capacity of the trucks but stay with me here. Let imagine a super cube can take 60 but a normal truck can only take 40. If you remove the supertruck this leaves you with 20 cages to transport. Given that it is not possible to buy half a truck you will need another full truck to take the remaining 20 cages. So even though the super cube does not take double what a normal truck takes you will still need a whole normal truck to carry what is left.

I like your thinking, but the supermarket would merely reschedule deliveries so that they happen 50% more often, rather than send half empty trucks.

MrPudding

Victor wrote:

I like your thinking, but the supermarket would merely reschedule deliveries so that they happen 50% more often, rather than send half empty trucks.

Most likely the frequency will increase but it may not be possible to resolve simply with increase frequency. I do ot think it is unreasonable to suggest more truck will be needed. I think the road haulage people are obviously truing to scare people, I doubt truck fleets would have to double.

One thing is certain. Whether or not the truck fleets increa in size what will increase is the number of journeys carried out by the truck. Whether the deficency in capacity is addressed with an increae in fleet size or an increase in frequency it will lead to either more truck being on the road or the same number of trucks being on the road more often.

MrP

MrPudding

Victor wrote:

I like your thinking, but the supermarket would merely reschedule deliveries so that they happen 50% more often, rather than send half empty trucks.

Most likely the frequency will increase but it may not be possible to resolve simply with increase frequency. I do ot think it is unreasonable to suggest more truck will be needed. I think the road haulage people are obviously truing to scare people, I doubt truck fleets would have to double.

One thing is certain. Whether or not the truck fleets increa in size what will increase is the number of journeys carried out by the truck. Whether the deficency in capacity is addressed with an increae in fleet size or an increase in frequency it will lead to either more truck being on the road or the same number of trucks being on the road more often.

MrP

BrianD

Come on now, you are going over the top!!!

How many supercubes are there in Ireland? I would say if they account for 1% of the trailer fleet than that would be it. The most obvious operators are Tesco, Argos and An Post. Of course the tunnel is not the only problem, some of the ferries are unable to accept these trailers as well. Even is a ban is introduced, supercube trailers that are already registered and in operation could be allowed to continue to operate.

I think the ban is silly because there are many other loads that are 'out of guage'. The ban is bit of Irish solution. The fact is that there will have to be an alternative overland route to the tunnel to accomodate unsuitable loads for tunnel. Supercubes could use this route but then every other truck would have to be allowed to as well.

Bear in mind that supercubes are also are recent innovation and that up to then deliveries were by standard trailers.

darkman2

is_that_so wrote:

Ah sure you know best.

I know, cheers:D

Victor

BrianD wrote:

How many supercubes are there in Ireland? I would say if they account for 1% of the trailer fleet than that would be it. The most obvious operators are Tesco, Argos and An Post.

Approximately 2% of Dublin Port traffic.

Of course the tunnel is not the only problem, some of the ferries are unable to accept these trailers as well.

I think only the high speed ferries, which tend to be a bit more expensive and not used by larger trucks anyway.

Even is a ban is introduced, supercube trailers that are already registered and in operation could be allowed to continue to operate.

Are trailers registered in the same way as motor vehicles. I think not. They can simply be sold into the UK market.

I imagine outsized loads will have to use Malahide Road or Howth Road, because of the railway bridges / cables.

Capt'n Midnight

Wern't the cages orginally designed for normal trucks ?

One option would be to make a second type of cage which is not quite as tall as the normal ones. Or just use a bolt cutter to trim one down.

Also there is the whole truck being blown over onto other road users, bad karma stuff.

BendiBus

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Wern't the cages orginally designed for normal trucks ?

One option would be to make a second type of cage which is not quite as tall as the normal ones. Or just use a bolt cutter to trim one down.

That would seem to be a sensible question!

And a commonsense answer! If the world is full of standard size trucks and containers then make cages that fit!

BrianD

Victor wrote:

Approximately 2% of Dublin Port traffic.
I think only the high speed ferries, which tend to be a bit more expensive and not used by larger trucks anyway.


Are trailers registered in the same way as motor vehicles. I think not. They can simply be sold into the UK market.

I imagine outsized loads will have to use Malahide Road or Howth Road, because of the railway bridges / cables.

All trailers have to be registered with the local authority and undergo testing each year after the first year of operation. To register you have to have a certificate of compliance from the manufacturer and you also pay €60 tax per year. The trailer gets a reg plate usually in thef ormat of two letters followed by 4 digits. You see these plates mounted on the bulkhead of the side of many trailers.

When registering it asks you to specify the trailer type e.g. flat bed but I don't think it specifys 'supercube' as such.

I'd imagine there will be have to be an alternative route to the tunnel in place in the event that the tunnel is closed for whatever reason.

darkman2

When will the tunnel be finished. There dosnt seem to be any answer to that Fairview park is still dug up.

is_that_so

darkman2 wrote:

When will the tunnel be finished. There dosnt seem to be any answer to that Fairview park is still dug up.

I believe it will be Q4 2006 or Q1 2007.The leaks fiasco added to the delay.
However according to the NRA ..............

http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/SchemeActivity-2006/#M50DublinPortTunnel