Legal question for your all.

Clare gunner

This is deer hunting related. you are driving along in deer country. day/ night doesnt matter.
A wild deer jumps out and you have a collision with the deer.Your car is damaged,the deer can either flee the scene of the crime or is dead on the spot.
Now; who is responsible for; [1]your damaged vechicle,as this is wild game it is supposedly ownerless?
[2] if the deer is dead,who is responsible for the carcass clean up and removal?
[3] if it is injured who is responsible for the humane disposal??
As there doesnt seem to be anything in the road traffic acts or the Wildlife act on this.Anyone got any ideas or had to deal with a situation like this?

civdef

{1} You.
{2} Not sure.
{3) Legally, probably no-one.

Clare gunner

Civ
if deer are granted protection under a act of parliment,surely that means that there is some sort of implied [however little] ownership,and then responsibility then by the State for their ownership and upkeep and actions?

civdef

AFAIK, several court cases have ruled that the state is not liable for damages caused by deer in RTAs. It was a particular bone of contention for someone I know who wrote his car off in a crash with one.

Rovi

I'm assuming this is in relation to wild deer, not escaped farmed ones?
When we had livestock, we specifically had insurance for the eventuality that something (including the dog) might escape and cause damage to someone else's property or person.
We made use of it twice, when a heifer jumped onto a car on the road, and when a herd of cows went for a frolic in a neighbour's beet crop.
I would presume that farmed deer would be treated the same as any other domestic livestock.

.

scout

1 you
2 county council? local farmer if they are in cork;)
3 Time or the nearest person that can do a half decent job

Double Barrel

Oh hell CG you have to make this complicated don't you.

This topic reminded me of something I read several years ago that was just hilarious.
This is an actual letter sent to a man named Ryan DeVries by the Department of Environmental Quality, State of Michigan. Read the whole thing.

Dammed Beavers!
http://www.snopes.com/humor/letters/dammed.htm

Government any government is not known for its sense of humor at any level. These are Very Important People, doing Very Important Things Without Which The Whole World Will Come Apart.

Clare gunner

DAMIT DB .I forgot how good that one was.:D

Rovi,
Yes deffo wild deer.They would be ancestors of park deer on a large estate,but over the years have escaped into the locality,and are born wild.
Farmed or park deer would be treated a somones livestock.

Responsibility,humane dispatch and carcass disposal seems to be here a very ambigious and if,but,maybe situation here.

Scout,
Clare farmers are just as good at it too;)

scout

the comment was more relating to the councils lack of action rather than the farmers action....

scout

while we are on this topic
a deer has been knocked down and needs to be put down is it still illegal to shoot him wit a 22lr

Rovi

scout wrote:

while we are on this topic
a deer has been knocked down and needs to be put down is it still illegal to shoot him wit a 22lr

There's an interesting one!
We're talking about humane dispatch here, not hunting, so I'd imagine there's nothing specifically illegal about it.

The .22, after all, has been and continues to be used in abattoirs all over the world, for everything up to and including beef cattle. It demands precise shot placement at point blank range though, so a wounded deer threshing around in the dark at the side of the road is an entirely different matter.

While basic humanity would dictate that a competent person should dispatch the wounded beast as quickly and efficiently as possible with the most suitable tools available to them at the time, the size and nature of any audience present should be borne in mind too.
If it's only yourself and/or others who understand that 'nature is red in tooth and claw', then quick dispatch with bullet or knife is the right thing to do. If the audience is composed of people who's only contact with deer has been Disney movies and picnics in the Phoenix Park, it might be best (from a PR point of view) to do the whole Gardai, veterinary surgeon, lethal injection thing. Even though the vet will probably use a gun anyway, and will want to know why someone else didn't shot the patient in the first place.

Anyhow, this sort of thing is not for someone who doesn't feel competent to do it properly, even if they DO have a gun available to them. Shooting at living things is a place many shooters don't want to go, and the stressful situation of a traffic accident and a wounded deer is not the place to 'have a go' at it.

.

scout

Rovi wrote:

Shooting at living things is a place many shooters don't want to go,

:eek:

i have heard a knife to the "between the joint at the base of the skull and the ...something around the eye" nis the best way to go but i am not entirely sure where this is not having ever shot deer or had much contact with their butcher can someone educate me,about the deer not in general....

Liam Good

Clare gunner wrote:

This is deer hunting related. you are driving along in deer country. day/ night doesnt matter.
A wild deer jumps out and you have a collision with the deer.Your car is damaged,the deer can either flee the scene of the crime or is dead on the spot.
Now; who is responsible for; [1]your damaged vechicle,as this is wild game it is supposedly ownerless?
[2] if the deer is dead,who is responsible for the carcass clean up and removal?
[3] if it is injured who is responsible for the humane disposal??
As there doesnt seem to be anything in the road traffic acts or the Wildlife act on this.Anyone got any ideas or had to deal with a situation like this?

From Shooting Sports April edition.

thelurcher

Just wondering - do some of ye carry a gun in the car at all times?

Surely the best thing to do if you don't have a gun is to slit it's throat right back to the spine - leave no room for error if you're not sure what you're doing - it'll bleed out in a short while - but will still thrash around and make noise grunting etc. - but goes calm quickly enough.
Drag the animal out of site if people are around - or tell them to f-off - chances are it'll be at night anyway.

Trojan911

scout wrote:

while we are on this topic
a deer has been knocked down and needs to be put down is it still illegal to shoot him wit a 22lr

Scout,

I doubt if you can shoot with any calibre as it is illegal to discharge a firearm on a public highway or within 50yds from the centre of the road. You could leave yourself open to prosecution irrespective of the fact that you may have been acting in the best interests of the animal. There is always a possibility that someone would complain... Best seek the Gardaí/Vet route to be safe.


TJ911...

Rovi

thelurcher wrote:

Just wondering - do some of ye carry a gun in the car at all times?

I don't, and on the occasions when I would have a gun in the car, I sometimes don't have ammunition with me.
Even if I did have a gun and ammunition for it, I'd be VERY cautious about hauling it out at the side of the road.
Circumstances would dictate of course. If I was alone and could be sure no-one else might appear on the scene, I'd do the decent thing and dispatch the unfortunate animal.
If there was anyone else about (particularly persons unknown to me), there's no way I'd be producing a firearm.
If the Gardai were present, I'd tell whoever was in charge that I had a gun and let them make any decisions on whether to use it or not.

.

Clare gunner

Ok,this is the way to dispatch a deer with a knife as taught on the German hunting course.DONT,if you can absolutely avoid it.Use a handgun.[Which INMHO is another good reason for deer stalkers to be issued with the liscense over here].If you must put a deer down with a knife,you must sever the spinal cord between the base of the skull and second or third vertebrae.That is an instant kill,no blood and very humane.It is the equivilancy of hanging.Also you are going to need a proper knife to do this,none of the std blades that we might carry on a day to day basis will do this.4ins plus is needed.
Trouble is,you have a injured animal,that is quite large,and has well,rather sharp pointy things itself on it's head called anterlers,which it can use quite well to see off others of it's kind and as it is no doubt in great pain,it will attack you if given the chance.Failing that deer have quite sharp hooves as well and will kick at you,especially hinds and calves.So you have quite a job in front of you.
Cutting it's throat in front of a spectator crowd of rubberneckers,you would proably need an ambulance yourself from the beating you would get.You will sever major artieries,which will gush like fire hoses,there is a ghastly wheezing sound of the air in the lungs,the animal if it can wil run.All in all a no no.Check out any of the terrorist s in Iraq hostage execution videos to see what a throat cutting job is like.If you can stomach it.Throat cutting is a Hollywood myth,or left to animals who do it to their fellow men.:(

As to shooting it with a 22 or whatever.
Dangerous enough with a shotgun or rifle[Shotgun use 00,000,or BB].
However you are also leaving yourself open to a kind of double jeporady here as well.If you are a hunter,and the accident happened to your car,and you knew how to put down an animal,you could also be charged with cruelty to animals under the 1911 act,as you let it suffer.
Wether it would stick is another question,and in a case like this if you were charged the court will weigh the greater evils of the case.A humane dispatch done safley with no danger to the public,or discharging a firearm in a public place?Be a pretty cold hearted SOB of a Garda or judge who would prosecute that case.

Rovi

Clare gunner wrote:

Trouble is,you have a injured animal,that is quite large,and has well,rather sharp pointy things itself on it's head called anterlers,which it can use quite well to see off others of it's kind and as it is no doubt in great pain,it will attack you if given the chance.Failing that deer have quite sharp hooves as well and will kick at you,especially hinds and calves.So you have quite a job in front of you.

I knew there was something else I wanted to mention.
Your first duty of care is to yourself!
A wounded deer is dangerous (as indeed, is any wounded animal), and they are armed with antlers and pointy hooves!

Clare gunner wrote:

Cutting it's throat in front of a spectator crowd of rubberneckers,you would proably need an ambulance yourself from the beating you would get.You will sever major artieries,which will gush like fire hoses,there is a ghastly wheezing sound of the air in the lungs,the animal if it can wil run.All in all a no no.

Having seen cattle being slaughtered by the Halal method, I agree wholeheartedly!
Remember the night club scene with the sprinklers in Blade? That's the sort of thing we talking about.

.

Sparks

Trojan911 wrote:

I doubt if you can shoot with any calibre as it is illegal to discharge a firearm on a public highway or within 50yds from the centre of the road.

I don't think so Trojan; I can't find a single reference to this in Irish law, either case or statute. It's in Northern Irish law (where the distance is 18 metres) and in UK law for certain; but Irish? Can't find it. Do you have a reference?

Vegeta

I agree totally with CG, humanely killing a wounded deer is very very tough, last year my brother shot one and it looked like a perfect heart shot so we lay in wait for 20 mins as we could see the deer in plain sight, he didn't move an inch for all the 20 minutes and we were sure he was dead within seconds of being shot.

We walked over to his position and up he sits, my brother and I then look at each other and are like what now, he kicked and tried to maul us with antlers but couldn't stand or run away. We were at a serious loss of what to do next, a hand gun would have been perfect and my brother is trying to get one this year just for that purpose.

My brother is a chef and had an excellent set of knives with him but we couldn't get near his neck or he would have taken our eyes out. We had the .270 but we thought that quite dangerous to shoot from point blank. After about 45 mins we headed home got a shotgun and shot him in the head with a magnum BB. Both of us were disgusted by this and have went for head shots with ballistic tip ammo on all deer since this incident.

I have huge respect for animals and to see one suffer like that at our hand, to be honest i felt sick

Rovi

Vegeta wrote:

We had the .270 but we thought that quite dangerous to shoot from point blank.

Leaving aside any considerations of a 'trophy head', has anyone any thoughts on standing off to 30-40 yards or so and taking a head shot with the deer rifle?
Assuming there was a suitable backstop for the initial shot, it'll still be there for the coup de grace. Moving away gives the animal some space to calm down a bit and hold still for the few moments required to make the shot, and you have time to get properly steady and place the shot correctly.
It's not as if you're firing at a rock or a concrete wall. The bullet is going to penetrate and exit out the far side. I'd be of the opinion that the danger of bone/bullet fragments coming back in the direction of the shooter is practically nil.
A few shots at this sort of range when sighting in your scope would seem to be a good idea, in my opinion, so that you know where your deer rifle shoots at extra short range.

Some people here must have done the deer hunting course, has that anything to say on this subject?

.

scout

Vegeta wrote:

I agree totally with CG, humanely killing a wounded deer is very very tough, last year my brother shot one and it looked like a perfect heart shot so we lay in wait for 20 mins as we could see the deer in plain sight, he didn't move an inch for all the 20 minutes and we were sure he was dead within seconds of being shot.

We walked over to his position and up he sits, my brother and I then look at each other and are like what now, he kicked and tried to maul us with antlers but couldn't stand or run away. We were at a serious loss of what to do next, a hand gun would have been perfect and my brother is trying to get one this year just for that purpose.

My brother is a chef and had an excellent set of knives with him but we couldn't get near his neck or he would have taken our eyes out. We had the .270 but we thought that quite dangerous to shoot from point blank. After about 45 mins we headed home got a shotgun and shot him in the head with a magnum BB. Both of us were disgusted by this and have went for head shots with ballistic tip ammo on all deer since this incident.

I have huge respect for animals and to see one suffer like that at our hand, to be honest i felt sick

that seems totaly cruel how long did it take
and did it not occor to back up and take another shot

Vegeta

how far would we back up, the rifle is zeored to 150 yards so we had no clue how it would shoot at say 30-40 yards as we never fired at anything in that range, we might have just wounded him again

also the way he was lying his head was at the bottom of a bank, we had no shot at his head unless A) he sat up, which he only did when we approached and it was point blank and I didn't feel like trying to shoot his vitals again from 150 especially as he was lying down.

Believe me the 270 was not an option otherwise we would have used it, you're right it was cruel which is why i really think hand guns for deer hunters should be enough reason to get one, even if its only a single shot with no other practical use

after initial shot it took in total bout 45 mins as i said in the post, well the first 15-20 mins was not our fault as this is common practice

thelurcher

Clare gunner wrote:

Trouble is,you have a injured animal,that is quite large,and has well,rather sharp pointy things itself on it's head called anterlers,which it can use quite well to see off others of it's kind and as it is no doubt in great pain,it will attack you if given the chance.Failing that deer have quite sharp hooves as well and will kick at you,especially hinds and calves.So you have quite a job in front of you.
Cutting it's throat in front of a spectator crowd of rubberneckers,you would proably need an ambulance yourself from the beating you would get.You will sever major artieries,which will gush like fire hoses,there is a ghastly wheezing sound of the air in the lungs,the animal if it can wil run.All in all a no no.Check out any of the terrorist s in Iraq hostage execution videos to see what a throat cutting job is like.If you can stomach it.Throat cutting is a Hollywood myth,or left to animals who do it to their fellow men.:(

There's a lot of blood alright - but that's kind of obvious.
I've never seen it gush like a fire hose!
I did say the sounds will continue but the animal does go calm fast.
Not all deer have antler or all the time!
If the animal looks lively enough that it could get up or attack - then leave it alone and call a vet (not that they'll nurse it back to health for free or anything).

I really think that cutting the throat IS a viable alternative IF:
You don't know the sweet spot or have the 'special knife' for an instant kill - i.e. most of us.
You don't have a suitable gun handy.
You don't want to see an animal suffer needlessly
You have a sharp knife.

I've seen the Iraq videos and they make a meal of cutting the throat - no doubt on purpose.

scout

on the subject of a deer bleading
http://www.theduckblind.net/heartSHOT1.wmv

may be graficish depends~~~

Clare gunner

There's a lot of blood alright - but that's kind of obvious.
I've never seen it gush like a fire hose!

Lurcher,
I have we used to slaughter and butcher our own pigs and beef when we were allowed to do so.The expression "stuck pig"does spring to mind,even after they had been shot in the head with a .22.Ok a fire hose might be too artistic on my part,but it comes out rapidly in a flood and you will be red with it.[ii] in my Ag college days we got a tour of a Halal plant here in Ireland,and an insight into ritual killing.It is messy and unecessarily so.
In the army when it comes to sentry disposal.The throat cutting is a myth.It is a stab into the sub clavican artery between the neck and collar bone.And you are warned about the amount of blood going to come out!!

I did say the sounds will continue but the animal does go calm fast.
Not all deer have antler or all the time!

Blood loss causes that.No they dont,but they do have hooves and they are plenty sharp to be kicked by one.If you have ever been stepped on by a baby calf you will know what I mean.

If the animal looks lively enough that it could get up or attack - then leave it alone and call a vet (not that they'll nurse it back to health for free or anything).

Indeed,but then how long may he take to show up?If you have the knowledge and means to sort out the problem as a hunter you do have a moral obligation to end the animals suffering even if you didn't shoot it.

]

I really think that cutting the throat IS a viable alternative IF:
You don't know the sweet spot or have the 'special knife' for an instant kill -

i.e. most of us[/QUOTE].

Now you do.Between the skull or second or third vertebrae back of the neck.Stab in,cut left or right to sever the spinal and brain cords.You dont chuck a good cheap folder in your glove box of your car??I do,I have plenty of good reasons for it,farm work,gardening,etc.Work related reasons for it being there.Plus i am never happy without one in the car as saftey belts can jam if you are in a wreck,or you might have to cut somone else free from a car wreck.So long as you arent walking around waving it at all and sundry.

You don't have a suitable gun handy.
You don't want to see an animal suffer needlessly
You have a sharp knife.

Who does at the right time?Who wants to see an animal suffer?Not much purpouse in having a blunt one at any time

I've seen the Iraq videos and they make a meal of cutting the throat - no doubt on purpose.

Without a doubt,but still unpleasent for the cuttee and not very quick,so why put anyone or thing thru it?

Trojan911

Sparks wrote:

I don't think so Trojan; I can't find a single reference to this in Irish law, either case or statute. It's in Northern Irish law (where the distance is 18 metres) and in UK law for certain; but Irish? Can't find it. Do you have a reference?

Sparks,

I have come across it here on an Irish website I was surfing re hunting etc, but I'm darned at the moment if I can find it. I will keep looking & if that fails I'll have a chat with my local Sgt who is the F/O for my area.....


TJ911...

Sparks

Not sure either of those sources would outweigh statute there TJ

macnas

Whether it's a surgical procedure, a 9mm, a gushing bloodbath beheading or firing another shot with the rifle, even at 30yds, it has to be preferable to buggering of home for a shotgun and leaving a deer suffering for 45 minutes. This talk of not being able to shoot at 30 or 40 yards is b#llsh#t.

Vegeta

macnas wrote:

Whether it's a surgical procedure, a 9mm, a gushing bloodbath beheading or firing another shot with the rifle, even at 30yds, it has to be preferable to buggering of home for a shotgun and leaving a deer suffering for 45 minutes. This talk of not being able to shoot at 30 or 40 yards is b#llsh#t.

wow nice fire a high calibre rifle, with a completely unknow zero point (at that distance) from an unsafe distance. Real Nice. :rolleyes:

For your info we couldn't fire from 30 yards because there was no safe backstop when up that close. We shot the deer from above which was sitting at the bottom of a low bank, if we shot from 30 yards it would have been shooting up the bank.

We shot the deer sat in wait for 15-20 mins (while he was in plain view, we thought he was dead on impact) which is quite normal and then it took 10 mins to drive home and bout the same to get back.

Its not like we stood around for half an hour decidin what to do, we did the best we could with what we could as fast as we could.

macnas

Vegeta wrote:

wow nice fire a high calibre rifle, with a completely unknow zero point (at that distance) from an unsafe distance. Real Nice. :rolleyes:

For your info we couldn't fire from 30 yards because there was no safe backstop when up that close. We shot the deer from above which was sitting at the bottom of a low bank, if we shot from 30 yards it would have been shooting up the bank.

We shot the deer sat in wait for 15-20 mins (while he was in plain view, we thought he was dead on impact) which is quite normal and then it took 10 mins to drive home and bout the same to get back.

Its not like we stood around for half an hour decidin what to do, we did the best we could with what we could as fast as we could.

Not every shot is going to be as clean as you like it to be, some shots are rushed and poorly placed. Your shot sounds like it was back on the deer, it happens. These are the things you have to expect when your out.
My advice, bring the shotgun with you.

Also off topic but it's probably quite unhealthy to be equating the humane dispatch of a deer and the beheading of a human being.

Vegeta

macnas wrote:

Not every shot is going to be as clean as you like it to be, some shots are rushed and poorly placed. Your shot sounds like it was back on the deer, it happens. These are the things you have to expect when your out.
My advice, bring the shotgun with you.

Also off topic but it's probably quite unhealthy to be equating the humane dispatch of a deer and the beheading of a human being.

I agree macnas i felt like sh1t to have to leave it in pain so long, we always bring the shotgun now even though we haven't used it since. we had a really good set of knives but couldn't get near his neck.

Yeah the shot was on the right line but too high.