was this played badley?

Gholimoli

ok its a hand from 15K last nite.
i feel like i could have taken the pot if i played it different but not sure if that would be the right play.
stacks:
UTG 10K
me UTG+1 11K
UTG+3 9K
MP2 36K
Blinds: 400/800
reads:i donno much about any one else but the big stack has got his stack from me.i just lost a pot of 25K to him after i flopped a str and he chased all the way to the river paying big time to finally make his higher str.he was chasing a middle pin draw).he plays alot of hands esp suited hands.not a good player at all but aggro and loves pi ssing chips away.

hand:
UTG limps.
i limp behind with QJs.
UTG+3 min raises and makes it 2K to play.
MP2 calls.
UTG calls.
i call.
(nearly 9K or so)
Flop: K T 9 rainbow.
UTG checks.
now here is what i was thinking.i have the nuts at the moment.there is no flush draw and i have two people to act after me .MP1 is aggrro and bets anything.my thinking was the pot has been raised and with that flop some one must have hit something .i was thinking if i bet prob one person will call but if i check maybe the shorty will go all in or something or even if he dosent MP2 may make a bet.so i checked in the hope of coming over the top and making it look like of on a draw.
UTG+3 checks and MP2 checks as well.
Turn: 9
UTG goes all in and i have him covered by about 2K or so so i call.
UTG+3 folds and MP2 goes all in.i call.
the pot was huge.
UTG has A9s
i have the best hand still.
MP1 has K7s.(what a muppet).
the river was another T and UTG wins with his boat and i win the side pot.
i know had i bet the flop i would have gotten UTG out of the hand and MP1 would still call or raise me seen as he had the K.
however was that the proper play?
should i have bet the flop or given the texture of the flop and the fact that it was raised and i still had the originla raiser and the big stack to act behind me,i was right to think some one will bet at this?

Ollieboy

you were 2nd to act and with a raise flop, you would hope that someone else would have bet it for you, I cant understand what a K7 or A9 was doing in a raised preflop do. I also dont understand how the guy with trip 9's went all in, I thought he would want to bet it and get paid, but maybe he was worried about the board.

I dont think you could play this any different, you slow played a massive hand and it was still a massive hand on the turn, so its more of a badbeat than anything else.

If you had bet the flop, I think you could have got rid of the A9, but you were looking to get paid and was unlucky that nobody else bet the flop, I'm sure all the players thought the QJ was in someone's hand, so maybe that made it hard to get action.

ianmc38

bad beat nothing else. Played the hand perfectly.

cardshark202

Not sure I'm a huge fan of the preflop action although you kinda got sucked in. Postflop I prefer to lead but I don't see any major problem in the check. You were just unlucky. You don't want A9 to fold by the way.

cardshark202

Ollieboy wrote:

I cant understand what a K7 or A9 was doing in a raised preflop do.

You could say the same about QJ in a raised pot....

Ollieboy wrote:

I'm sure all the players thought the QJ was in someone's hand, so maybe that made it hard to get action.

If they all thought QJ was in someone else's hand why do two players go all in on the turn with hands that can't beat the nut straight?

Sorry.... Can't help but nitpick this stuff.

Iceman78

I thought you played it perfectly, just unlucky that the A9 hit runner, runner to take you out.

Only reason i would have bet flop is if i knew the big stack would call if he was very aggressive. If i was sure of this and knew he would call my all in on turn, i may bet on the flop.

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

Not sure I'm a huge fan of the preflop action although you kinda got sucked in. Postflop I prefer to lead but I don't see any major problem in the check. You were just unlucky. You don't want A9 to fold by the way.

QJs is a perfect hand for Multi way pot.
u could argue that my postion was to early to call here with it cuz they were many players to act after me but given the action that happend after wards i was getting the odds and had a perfect hand to play a multi way pot.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

QJs is a perfect hand for Multi way pot.
u could argue that my postion was to early to call here with it cuz they were many players to act after me but given the action that happend after wards i was getting the odds and had a perfect hand to play a multi way pot.

I prefer getting involved with hands like 78s for value and I also prefer to be in better position. Having said that once you limped you were priced in to call.

Ollieboy

cardshark202 wrote:

You could say the same about QJ in a raised pot....

Agreed, he was out of position and should have laid this down.


If they all thought QJ was in someone else's hand why do two players go all in on the turn with hands that can't beat the nut straight?

Sorry.... Can't help but nitpick this stuff.

Some people find it hard to laydown trips and he hit the perfect card on the river to get lucky, I would have been happy to see the 9, as this would have given someone more encouragement to bet the hand. So his bad play got reward here, I'm sure some of the other players laydown big hands, ie top pair and top kicker.

And stop nitpicking....lol Its not like he went all in with a pair of QQ's and possible straight on the board.lol

Ollieboy

cardshark202 wrote:

I prefer getting involved with hands like 78s for value and I also prefer to be in better position. Having said that once you limped you were priced in to call.

Agreed about been price in, but I hate making a move like that because your price in and you already know your behind.

Just another point, I've stop playing suit connectors, my return on them is terrible, you really need to hit 2 pairs or trips with them to be getting paid.

cardshark202

Ollieboy wrote:

Agreed about been price in, but I hate making a move like that because your price in and you already know your behind.

Do you think that you'd be ahead if you call with QJs after getting priced in?

Back to the hand, I actually prefer folding ahead of limping and calling a raise with a drawing hand given the shallow stack sizes and the weak position.

Ollieboy

cardshark202 wrote:

Do you think that you'd be ahead if you call with QJs after getting priced in?

Back to the hand, I actually prefer folding ahead of limping and calling a raise with a drawing hand given the shallow stack sizes and the weak position.

What I said is, I hate calling a raise because I'm price in, when I already know I'm behind with QJ, its alright to limp in with, but not to be calling raise with.

Samba

You answered the question yourself Gholi - you had a plan, the plan worked out to a tea and you were a little unlucky.

I've taken a beating when it comes to this tournament - I cannot believe how loose it is.

3 times in a row I have busted out with AA, twice I limped UTG, UTG+1 raises it for me as expected - 5 people call this raise - I go all in - they all call!

It's what you want and don't want

Keep hacking away and the final table will soon be in sight as it has been so often for you these huge pots will eventually be yours.

Bozzer

cardshark202 wrote:

I prefer getting involved with hands like 78s for value and I also prefer to be in better position.

I know you're probably talking about this specific hand with shallow stacks but I just want to make a general comment on this.

Imagine this scenario - 6 handed nlhe, 100bb stacks

utg limps, utg+1 limps, co raises, button calls, utg calls, utg+1 calls.

Would you rather be utg+1 or button with 78s?

RoundTower

I think you played it fine apart from the first limp preflop. If you had even 16k I think you could afford to limp. As it is the stacks are just too shallow.

As for Bozzer's question -- I want to be on the button here. Sure, if I'm UTG+1 I can check and have everyone else act before me on the flop. But I want to have position for the rest of the hand. Plus there's no guarantee the CO will bet against 3 opponents.

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

Do you think that you'd be ahead if you call with QJs after getting priced in?

Back to the hand, I actually prefer folding ahead of limping and calling a raise with a drawing hand given the shallow stack sizes and the weak position.

its not a question of being ahead at all.obviously i knew i was not a head but that has nothing to do with it.
are you suggesting that you should only call a raise when you think your ahead?
i agree that given my stack the limp was not the best play.
i was hoping to see a cheap flop.
however what happend after that was all correct.
i was getting very good odds to see the flop with a very good hand that plays well multi way.i was caping the action with my call as well which makes all the more secure.
as for what you suggested about you rather playing 78 is this spot well i dont see why?
if you arguing that well with 78s you will drop them as soon as u dont hit the flop which is correct but its really up to the player how he sees the textur of the flop to see if its worth carrying on.
also with QJs some times hitting a pair is good enough to win you the pot but thats hardley the case with 78s.

Gholimoli

Samba wrote:

You answered the question yourself Gholi - you had a plan, the plan worked out to a tea and you were a little unlucky.

I've taken a beating when it comes to this tournament - I cannot believe how loose it is.

3 times in a row I have busted out with AA, twice I limped UTG, UTG+1 raises it for me as expected - 5 people call this raise - I go all in - they all call!

It's what you want and don't want

Keep hacking away and the final table will soon be in sight as it has been so often for you these huge pots will eventually be yours.

thanks Samba .
my question was really should i have bet the flop or not.
i did have a plan and i gave all the information that i had at the time when i made the decision.however i wasnt sure whether or not my plan was a correct one.
as for this particular tourney i have to say they are getting softer.
sure you get unlucky and get ur AA cracked every now and then but more often that not you get paid from donkeys to no end.
i think the key to this particular tourney for theos who are interested is in the rebuy period and how much chips you can get .

cardshark202

Bozzer wrote:

I know you're probably talking about this specific hand with shallow stacks but I just want to make a general comment on this.

Imagine this scenario - 6 handed nlhe, 100bb stacks

utg limps, utg+1 limps, co raises, button calls, utg calls, utg+1 calls.

Would you rather be utg+1 or button with 78s?

I'd much rather the button. I still get to see how the CO acts, as well as the EP players. However I don't think I'd be cold-calling a raise from the CO on the button with 2 EP limpers to act in a tourney like this with shallow stacks.

EDIT: Just reread your post there. I still doubt I'd call a raise in this position with 100bb stacks, but I guess it depends. However, if I was to get involved with 78, I still prefer LP to any other position.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

its not a question of being ahead at all.obviously i knew i was not a head but that has nothing to do with it.
are you suggesting that you should only call a raise when you think your ahead?

No

Gholimoli wrote:

i agree that given my stack the limp was not the best play.
i was hoping to see a cheap flop.
however what happend after that was all correct.
i was getting very good odds to see the flop with a very good hand that plays well multi way.i was caping the action with my call as well which makes all the more secure.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with calling the preflop raise once you limped.

Gholimoli wrote:

as for what you suggested about you rather playing 78 is this spot well i dont see why?
if you arguing that well with 78s you will drop them as soon as u dont hit the flop which is correct but its really up to the player how he sees the textur of the flop to see if its worth carrying on.
also with QJs some times hitting a pair is good enough to win you the pot but thats hardley the case with 78s.

If I was to hit top pair with QJ in this position, or 78 in the same position I would prefer 78 in most cases because Im less likely to lose my stack because of kicker problems.

Bozzer

cardshark202 wrote:

I'd much rather the button. I still get to see how the CO acts, as well as the EP players. However I don't think I'd be cold-calling a raise from the CO on the button with 2 EP limpers to act in a tourney like this with shallow stacks.

I'd prefer utg+1. I'd rather have good position relative to the raiser than absolute position with this hand. The preflop raiser is the most likely player to bet the flop and you will be forced to act without closing the action. Considering you're more likely to flop a draw than a big made hand you will often be in a pretty tough spot on the flop.
The difference in opinion may have something to do with the games we play in but I'm definitely not liking the button in this situation.

fuzzbox

I bet this flop against multiple players - why not, its most likely to have hit somebody - its a super-charged flop.

Better to bet now, than to hit a J on the turn, and either scare our action, or have them defeat us with their AQ (ok a little ott with the AQ, but there are a LOT of scare cards that can make ppl fold).

As played - it was ok, you got the money in good, but got out-drawn. C'est la vie.

PS - checking a 743 flop with 56 is much preferable to checking a KT9 flop with QJ .... do you see why ?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

I bet this flop against multiple players - why not, its most likely to have hit somebody - its a super-charged flop.

Better to bet now, than to hit a J on the turn, and either scare our action, or have them defeat us with their AQ (ok a little ott with the AQ, but there are a LOT of scare cards that can make ppl fold).

As played - it was ok, you got the money in good, but got out-drawn. C'est la vie.

PS - checking a 743 flop with 56 is much preferable to checking a KT9 flop with QJ .... do you see why ?

thats exactly what i was wondering Fozz and i agree about the scare cards that would make people shut down.
so i think in general against decent ppl betting the flop is correct.
but how about against this particular villain that i was almost sure will make some attemp at the pot?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

thats exactly what i was wondering Fozz and i agree about the scare cards that would make people shut down.
so i think in general against decent ppl betting the flop is correct.
but how about against this particular villain that i was almost sure will make some attemp at the pot?

He might raise .

Even villains who normally bluff will tend to not bluff into a multi-way KT9 board. All three cards are in the playing zone, thus making a call fairly likely, so a bluff is not a good play.

Besides - you wuz wrong ....

cardshark202

Bozzer wrote:

I'd prefer utg+1. I'd rather have good position relative to the raiser than absolute position with this hand. The preflop raiser is the most likely player to bet the flop and you will be forced to act without closing the action. Considering you're more likely to flop a draw than a big made hand you will often be in a pretty tough spot on the flop.
The difference in opinion may have something to do with the games we play in but I'm definitely not liking the button in this situation.

I see your point here and you can often get caught in a tough spot on the button. I prefer the button because I think my range of actions are less limited so to speak.

Example 1a: Flop is 832r, its checked to you in UTG+1. Do you bet with preflop raiser still to act? You could end up playing fourth and fifth street OOP against the CO.

Example 1b: Flop is 832r, its checked to you on the button. Do you bet now?

I think you can be more confident of your hand and less likely to be bluffed off it in this type of scenario

If you flop a big draw, I think being UTG+1 may be more profitable than the button in certain cases so I do agree with you there.

In the games I play, check-raising is a rarity so the later the position the better.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

He might raise .

Even villains who normally bluff will tend to not bluff into a multi-way KT9 board. All three cards are in the playing zone, thus making a call fairly likely, so a bluff is not a good play.

Besides - you wuz wrong ....

i agree with what u said about scare cards but consider this:
would some one not try to protect against a draw heavy board and so bet here considering the board as you said is well with it the playing range of a 4 way raised pot?
so if correct in this assumption then how do you know which is the correct play?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

i agree with what u said about scare cards but consider this:
would some one not try to protect against a draw heavy board and so bet here considering the board as you said is well with it the playing range of a 4 way raised pot?
so if correct in this assumption then how do you know which is the correct play?

Betting cant be wrong - so if in doubt ... bet.

slegs

Gholimoli wrote:

thanks Samba .
my question was really should i have bet the flop or not.
i did have a plan and i gave all the information that i had at the time when i made the decision.however i wasnt sure whether or not my plan was a correct one.
as for this particular tourney i have to say they are getting softer.
sure you get unlucky and get ur AA cracked every now and then but more often that not you get paid from donkeys to no end.
i think the key to this particular tourney for theos who are interested is in the rebuy period and how much chips you can get .

Gholi...i am very interested in this...you seem to always have a huge stack in the 15K's post rebuy period...whats the secret?

My issue is that the fish on tribeca have me paralysed into over conservatism during rebuy...when i hit i hit big...but when i dont my stack isn't big enough for post rebuy...when i play loose and agressive nobody will lay down a hand or you get these idiots with allinitis that prevent any poker being played..

interested in your thoughts on this if you are willing to give away the trade secrets