fear for the future and home ownership

ferdi

Please have quick read of this post which i was inspired by to write this becasue i feel the very same as this guy - as a young person in college in ireland i see very little hope for the future. i feel i will not be able of afford the things i want or to have the life i wish for. i see ahead of me massive financial pressure, astronomical debt, hours and hours of commuting. a purely work driven life. i am basiclly scared ****less about my future in ireland and it feels increasingly likely that i will end up leaving this country for good. and it got me thinking...

In ireland, we (the young people) all expect to own our own homes like our parents and grandparents before us. why? many millions of people in europe and the states live perfectly happy and secure lives, long term renting their homes. it seems to me that the irish as a nation have some archaic desire to own their own house and land - like in 'The Field' or the something. we all have fear in the back of our minds that the Brits are going to come and rack rent us. we are still very insecure in our independence and this is displayed in the way we all seem to need to own a piece of the counrty. How is this a reasonable expectation? house prices and commute times surely make buying a house an act of madness?

everyone goes on about how Ireland has changed so much bla bla bla, so in light of this, is it reasonable for us all to expect to own our own house? Our parents did, but that was a different time, a whole other world in which you had a job for life and you could pick a cheap house and settle down happily ever after in one place. Today people changes jobs as often as they do shoes so in reality dosnt owning a house tie you down? dosnt it completely destroy any mobility and flexibility which is so clearly needed in the modern working environment?

i guess i dont really know what point i'm making other than - dispite our 'prosperity' i think many irish young people are scared of the future and the expectations put on them by society and themselves. why do i need to own my house? security? what about freedom and flexiblility to up and go if you need/want to?

comments?

Chrissie

5 years ago today I was working in a cafe in Melbourne for peanuts practically, I had NO money & still had 5 months left to survive.

Had the best time of my life & came back absolutely broke, with a loan to pay off.
Went straight into college (2 days off) to do my degree. Finished that, got a job a few weeks later & have been working ever since (less than 3 years)

I bought a house last year.

It can be done if you put your mind & effort to it.
I have a tenant in my house paying my mortgage for me & there's some rent left over to go straight into my pocket.

It seems like a hopeless world, but it doesn't have to be.

(In saying that, if you handed me a 1 way ticket to Oz, leaving tomorrow, I'd probably snap hand & all of you!!!):D

ivan087

fair play. ive been thinking this myself since i finished college. and ive come to one conclusion - leave the country. ive travelled a bit since leaving college, and altough ive been in relatively poorer countries and regoins, ive seen them having a better standard of life.
i work in the IT sector, in which most jobs are in dublin (thats if i manage to get one thats not call-center related). i dont want to spend all my money on a mortgage and i dont want to live in a shoe box in the city.
but its more then that. its our society. we're a drink fueled nation. anytime im in work and theres a night out, it turns into a drunken debacle. with friends - its drink, drink and more drink. meeting people - its to the clubs and more drink. personally (and im sure others agree) i prefer the continental way of enjoying themselves - dinner with friends and family, a few drinks, etc. the quality of life around italy, france, spain, germany appeals to me more. their society is more mature and family oriented. try bringing a baby to a resteraunt in ireland?!
also, ive been talking to some people about this recently - all you hear about from young people are the new cars they have, the new house they bought, how much they bought it for, blah, blah, blah.
this country has become a boring, consumer driven, selfish nation. i know some people will slag me off and tell me to move abroad, but i just find it sad that our society has moved this way. anyway sorry if this post dosnt make much sense, just writting what comes into my head! off to spain for me:D

Kernel

My house is on the southside of Dublin, and I've had it for a few years now. I bought early due to the house price rise, and had to sacrifice a lot. It was a complete lifestyle change, and is always tough going at the start. Buying in Dublin allows me to maintain my flexibility, work wise, as most employment is in the capital.

I know someone who was renting a house for 12+ years, and whenever the landlord decides to up the rent, that's what happens. The landlord has also decided to sell up, so that person has 6 months to find somewhere new to live. There's no security whatsoever with rented accomodation. The tenant in question has probably paid the landlord's mortgage over the years and now has nothing to show for it.

That's why it's a good idea to buy your own property if you can afford it.

Dave!

Chrissie wrote:

(In saying that, if you handed me a 1 way ticket to Oz, leaving tomorrow, I'd probably snap hand & all of you!!!):D

Just curious, but why don't you leave? Have you got a family here now? What's keeping you in Ireland? Could you not do what you did here, in Oz?

Just wondering, cos alot of people have that longing to be in another country, and they never go for one reason or another. I know I don't want to live in Ireland -- at least, not until I have a family. Then, maybe, cos I'd like my kids to have family, but other than that, there's not much keeping me in Ireland.

I read that thread and was gonna post a new thread on it, you get there first OP

My thoughts:
I'm not too worried about the future to be honest! I plan on travelling around alot after college, working in various places, etc., and when I think I want to settle down, then I'll look for a career, and start worrying about a permanent residence. I guess I'm not too worried because I know that if for some reason I lose all my money, get fired from my job, and have no place to stay, then if worst comes to worst, I can come home and stay with my parents or a sibling, or an aunt, cousin, whatever..., for a while, until I get back on my feet. I guess my family is a bit of a security net. Maybe that's a bit of an irresponsible way of looking at things, I dunno, but the future doesn't look as bleak to me as to others, apparantly!

Maybe it's just cos I'm not so pushed about buying a house in Ireland ASAP!

ivan087 wrote:

fair play. ive been thinking this myself since i finished college. and ive come to one conclusion - leave the country. ive travelled a bit since leaving college, and altough ive been in relatively poorer countries and regoins, ive seen them having a better standard of life.
i work in the IT sector, in which most jobs are in dublin (thats if i manage to get one thats not call-center related). i dont want to spend all my money on a mortgage and i dont want to live in a shoe box in the city.
but its more then that. its our society. we're a drink fueled nation. anytime im in work and theres a night out, it turns into a drunken debacle. with friends - its drink, drink and more drink. meeting people - its to the clubs and more drink. personally (and im sure others agree) i prefer the continental way of enjoying themselves - dinner with friends and family, a few drinks, etc. the quality of life around italy, france, spain, germany appeals to me more. their society is more mature and family oriented. try bringing a baby to a resteraunt in ireland?!
also, ive been talking to some people about this recently - all you hear about from young people are the new cars they have, the new house they bought, how much they bought it for, blah, blah, blah.
this country has become a boring, consumer driven, selfish nation. i know some people will slag me off and tell me to move abroad, but i just find it sad that our society has moved this way. anyway sorry if this post dosnt make much sense, just writting what comes into my head! off to spain for me:D

Yeah I agree completely!

The_Minister

Maybe this should be in Humanities?

ferdi wrote:

as a young person in college in ireland i see very little hope for the future. i feel i will not be able of afford the things i want or to have the life i wish for. i see ahead of me massive financial pressure, astronomical debt, hours and hours of commuting. a purely work driven life. i am basiclly scared ****less about my future in ireland and it feels increasingly likely that i will end up leaving this country for good. and it got me thinking...

I'm not too worried. I expect that we will begin building highrise and that we will all live in apartments.......once those Greens and socialists are taken care of.

skywalker

For the folks advocating long term renting over buying, whats the plan once you retire out of interest?

ferdi

how is it that people all over europe can afford to long term rent and here its a no-no?. in vienna no one owns there house but everyone is fine....

ivan087

ferdi wrote:

how is it that people all over europe can afford to long term rent and here its a no-no?. in vienna no one owns there house but everyone is fine....

exactly! i think its a follow the sheep mentality or maybe just an irish tradition. i plan on putting money aside and when i reach retirement age i'll have enough money to buy a house in a sunny south european country to live out my days. seems better then paying through the nose for a house now and only owning it by the time your 70 and living out your days in lucan or abbetstown!

ferdi

and in terms of security, what is the point in me having security in my life if my life consists of breaking my balls day-in-day-out for 30 odd years then being tossed on the **** heap by society because my body and mind are so worn out. what kind of life is this? is this capitalism in action?

ivan087

ferdi wrote:

and in terms of security, what is the point in me having security in my life if my life consists of breaking my balls day-in-day-out for 30 odd years then being tossed on the **** heap by society because my body and mind are so worn out. what kind of life is this? is this capitalism in action?

that seems like a definition of capitalism to me. break your balls for your boss so he can get rich and then your tossed to the side when he/she is finished with you. jez this thread is really depressing:( i think ireland has made its choice and is following the american system. has anyone travelled to the US. and i mean travelled - not just to NY or LA, but seen the real america in the small towns and cities. where most barely survive, even with 2 or 3 jobs. really f****n depressing.

The_Minister

Quiet, little peons!!

Kernel

ferdi wrote:

and in terms of security, what is the point in me having security in my life if my life consists of breaking my balls day-in-day-out for 30 odd years then being tossed on the **** heap by society because my body and mind are so worn out. what kind of life is this? is this capitalism in action?

Yeah, that's capitalism. Welcome to life people.

As I mentioned, it is always a better investment to buy your own property than to rent. You can rent all your life if you like, you you will end up paying out much more than you would pay out with a mortgage, and in the end you will be left with nothing.

The reason people over Europe rent so much is because the property markets there are more mature, and house prices are prohibitively high for most people, so they rent. Because the equity is more stable, and the market is mature, the rental cost isn't as likely to fluctuate as much as in our more volatile market.

Siogfinsceal

Im meant to b buying a house in next few years ...well thats the plan for me and the boyf but the prospect of owing so much money for 30+ years scares the sh*t outta me!! Its disgusting how much houses cost over here and how much you end up paying back. Rent is so expensive too tho so lets face it you might as well be paying a mortgage in the hope that your house goes up in value. I dont even know if I want to live here forever it seems lik ethey are building on any green patch of land so we are destined to be living in an area with thousands of house all looking the same, no facilities and a 2 hour jounrney in traffic to and from work as the roads cant cope with the volume of traffic - is it all worth it?? part of me wants to run off to Oz and buy something in the outback and live in the sun! the cost of living here is scary too I want to move jobs but unless I can secure a higher wage I cant and im actually afraid of endin gup with no job as how on earth could I afford rent or a mortgage then? makes my head spin!

Kernel

Siogfinsceal wrote:

Im meant to b buying a house in next few years ...well thats the plan for me and the boyf but the prospect of owing so much money for 30+ years scares the sh*t outta me!! Its disgusting how much houses cost over here and how much you end up paying back. Rent is so expensive too tho so lets face it you might as well be paying a mortgage in the hope that your house goes up in value. I dont even know if I want to live here forever it seems lik ethey are building on any green patch of land so we are destined to be living in an area with thousands of house all looking the same, no facilities and a 2 hour jounrney in traffic to and from work as the roads cant cope with the volume of traffic - is it all worth it?? part of me wants to run off to Oz and buy something in the outback and live in the sun! the cost of living here is scary too I want to move jobs but unless I can secure a higher wage I cant and im actually afraid of endin gup with no job as how on earth could I afford rent or a mortgage then? makes my head spin!

Yeah, that's how the few manage to control the masses. It's an elaborate system, the whole thing, but it's about controlling you and me and all the other proletariat. Think of it as a giant pyramid. We are at the bottom of the pyramid, the largest volume, and up the top are the capitalist masters. They don't work for their money, we work for their money.

cooperguy

Renting a house is dead money that you get nothing out of and it costs you more in the long run. Buying a house does not tie you down you can sell as quick as you bought it and you might even make a profit!

The_Minister

Siogfinsceal wrote:

. I dont even know if I want to live here forever it seems lik ethey are building on any green patch of land so we are destined to be living in an area with thousands of house all looking the same, no facilities and a 2 hour jounrney in traffic to and from work as the roads cant cope with the volume of traffic - is it all worth it??

All they need to do is tell the greens and socialists to take a hike and we can build highrise, prices will go down and everyone will be happy

cooperguy

Kernel wrote:

Yeah, that's how the few manage to control the masses. It's an elaborate system, the whole thing, but it's about controlling you and me and all the other proletariat. Think of it as a giant pyramid. We are at the bottom of the pyramid, the largest volume, and up the top are the capitalist masters. They don't work for their money, we work for their money.

Thats just slightly over the top dont you think

ferdi

Kernel wrote:

Yeah, that's capitalism. Welcome to life people.

how is that life? its a sham. you've bought your house and made your bed. you might as well roll over and die, no offence:o

i'm still very young, is it possible for me to refuse to get pulled down into the seathing work orientated money worshiping cess pit of a rut which has engulfed society? can i escape without becoming a kooky long-haired living up a tree? is leaving ireland the only way out?

Kernel

cooperguy wrote:

Thats just slightly over the top dont you think

No, not at all. Why do you think it is?

ferdi wrote:

how is that life? its a sham. you've bought your house and made your bed. you might as well roll over and die, no offence

i'm still very young, is it possible for me to refuse to get pulled down into the seathing work orientated money worshiping cess pit of a rut which has engulfed society? can i escape without becoming a kooky long-haired living up a tree? is leaving ireland the only way out?

It's life under the shackles of corporate capitalism unfortunately. The only way to live in a better society is to work to change it, to make it progress and make it better. Greed is a powerful motivator to overcome, unfortunately, but I feel the tension in Ireland, so maybe socialist revolution is on the way.

It's not possible to have a good life without being a cog in the machine and selling your labour. Unless you are unusually talented at something or win the Lotto. The lotto is there to give us hope to become one of the masters, after all - then we can actually live life.

fischerspooner

Obviously mortgage-payers are going to say us renters are a bunch of idiots and start throwing around phrases like "dead money" that their parents thought them... The thing is, I've worked it out, I would pay less rent in the next 30 years than I would on a mortgage (unless I wanted to live MILES AND MILES from the city), AND i get to live in an area where I want to live, i.e. clontarf or the city centre, not in some new strange land like "Duleek" and "Laytown" and all these places miles away from dublin where people seem to be buying. Tenants have more rights than you may think and who knows if the boom may crash some day with house prices plummeting and you're stuck with a 400,000 mortgage! That's a risk I'm not willing to take.

Kernel

fischerspooner wrote:

Obviously mortgage-payers are going to say us renters are a bunch of idiots and start throwing around phrases like "dead money" that their parents thought them... The thing is, I've worked it out, I would pay less rent in the next 30 years than I would on a mortgage (unless I wanted to live MILES AND MILES from the city), AND i get to live in an area where I want to live, i.e. clontarf or the city centre, not in some new strange land like "Duleek" and "Laytown" and all these places miles away from dublin where people seem to be buying. Tenants have more rights than you may think and who knows if the boom may crash some day with house prices plummeting and you're stuck with a 400,000 mortgage! That's a risk I'm not willing to take.

You're making a mistake if you do that with your life, but you know best eh?

Sleepy

fischerspooner, you're not comparing like with like. A mortgage taken out on a 2 bed apartment today may feel expensive at 12/14k a month in repayments however at the end of that mortgage term, 12/14k will be peanuts compared to the rental cost of a property at that time. Most people I know that have a mortgage for longer than 5/6 years are paying less on their mortgage than I am in rent (sharing a ****-hole with 4 others).

Those whining about capitalism: you do realise that under a communist system you would lose your house and inevitably (if we look at historic precedent) have a much worse standard of life?

DaBreno

ivan087 wrote:

seems better then paying through the nose for a house now and only owning it by the time your 70 and living out your days in lucan or abbetstown!

Hey!!

Kernel

Sleepy wrote:

Those whining about capitalism: you do realise that under a communist system you would lose your house and inevitably (if we look at historic precedent) have a much worse standard of life?

Nobody has mentioned communism here though. You can make the current system more socialist without reverting to complete communism. The free market is a wonderful thing, but it does mean the guy with the most chips at the table has more of a chance of winning big.

The real problems start when you have to buy the chips from him.

Meh, I'm planning to move abroad to do my PhD anyway. Living here was never something I considered, and still don't.
As for the renting issue, if it's cheap and you're happy not to have quite so much security, go for it. Personally I think I'd rent for a while then buy a house. If I could find a mortgage that didn't charge so damn much interest.

LegacyUser

I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, but to the OP, who is putting pressure on you to buy property?

The way I see it is - I you don't want to be tied to a huge mortgage, and/or if you don't want to spend hours commuting to work because you couldn't afford the house you wanted in Dublin - then don't buy - rent!

It really is as simple as that.

Personally, I want to own my own home. I do not want to pay someone elses mortgage, and I like the security of knowing that my home is my own for as long as I want it, and there is no fear that someone will give me a months notice to move out etc. Therefore, I will buy my own property.

It is as simple as that, if you don't want to buy, then don't, and if you do, then find a way and do it. Don't let 'society' place pressure on you to do anything you don't want to do.
Peer pressure from society is a terrible excuse for tying yourself to something you don't want to be tied to - for the next 35 years!!:eek:

fly_agaric

Kernel wrote:

The reason people over Europe rent so much is because the property markets there are more mature, and house prices are prohibitively high for most people, so they rent.

Isn't it true that tenants there also have much more rights than here -> more security for raising a family etc?

I was asking someone on this board about this before and it was pointed out that new rights have been given to tenants here recently (http://www.prtb.ie/ - have to say it doesn't seem very impressive) - but how does it compare with say, France or Germany?

Freelancer

ferdi wrote:

how is it that people all over europe can afford to long term rent and here its a no-no?. in vienna no one owns there house but everyone is fine....

Probably because they have some form of rent control to ensure landlords can't savage them, also long term leases and tennants are more responsible for the property.

I had your attitude when I was your age, as were most of my friends. Years later we're all tens of thousands of pounds poorer, and sick of crappy apartments lazy landlords who take forever to fix things. Theres a world of difference between renting and owning.

ferdi

Freelancer wrote:

Probably because they have some form of rent control to ensure landlords can't savage them, also long term leases and tennants are more responsible for the property.

my point exactly - so if i left this ****hole of a country i could rent quite happily for ever and ever amen and never have to buy. celtic tiger? celtic enema if you ask me. **** this place

tunaman

Ferdi and kernel have it spot on.

The leaders are supposed to work for the rest of the people but this has not been the case for a good while now.

The vast majority of taxes are paid by the lower classes and yet many of the rich manage to avoid paying the same rate of tax due to ridiculous loop holes.

The economy not just here but worldwide is very sick,with massive increases in debt year on year which cannot be sustained.There will soon be a huge crash the likes of which has never been seen before.

I think we are also rapidly headed towards a fascist state if the US and UK are anything to go by.

http://proliberty.com/observer/20060201.htm

If we want to know what USA(Ireland) will be like in the near future, we need only look at Tony Blair’s Great Britain—surely the most advanced police state in Europe:

• ID cards with facial scans will soon be compulsory throughout U.K.104

• There are over 4 million closed circuit cameras monitoring every move the British people make and all faces caught on camera can be matched with a national data bank.105

• British police are carrying hand held DNA kits linked to national data bases for when they test saliva.106

• People are being pulled off London trains at random and forced to submit to a full body backscatter X-ray to reveal what they have under their clothes.107

• Swipe cards used for transportation and building entry allow police to plot a citizen’s every move on a dot map.108

• All moving vehicles in Britain are camera-recorded so that police can analyze, by license number, every journey, and every gas purchase made.109

• People and vehicles are being tracked from cell towers with a new technology called "Celldar" (as in radar).110

• The British people are reporting grave illnesses from their exposure to thousands of microwave transmitters which make this metastasizing surveillance nightmare possible.111

simu

Time to brush up on the origami and construct a good tinfoil hat, all! But seriously, people here should stop worrying so much. Chill! The future probably won't be all that bad!

Freelancer

ferdi wrote:

my point exactly - so if i left this ****hole of a country i could rent quite happily for ever and ever amen and never have to buy. celtic tiger? celtic enema if you ask me. **** this place

Okay move to france 20% unemployment in under 26yos

Germany still serious unemployment, you could buy a nice flat in east german, you'd still have to face unemployment.

Italy is a fantasticaly corrupt country.

Eastern Europe are blooming economies, you'll need to to learn Czech or Polish
they've blooming countries, but you'll need to have specific skills to earn a decent western wage there.

onto conspiracy theory central

• ID cards with facial scans will soon be compulsory throughout U.K.104

No they won't.

• There are over 4 million closed circuit cameras monitoring every move the British people make and all faces caught on camera can be matched with a national data bank.105

There are more than four million people in Manchester, how will they capture all the faces?

• British police are carrying hand held DNA kits linked to national data bases for when they test saliva.106

No they're not.

• People are being pulled off London trains at random and forced to submit to a full body backscatter X-ray to reveal what they have under their clothes.107

No they're not.

• Swipe cards used for transportation and building entry allow police to plot a citizen’s every move on a dot map.108

What seriously?

• All moving vehicles in Britain are camera-recorded so that police can analyze, by license number, every journey, and every gas purchase made.109

Have you any idea how absurd a suggestion that is?

• People and vehicles are being tracked from cell towers with a new technology called "Celldar" (as in radar).110

Vechiles? How? Anyone can track a cellphone these days.

• The British people are reporting grave illnesses from their exposure to thousands of microwave transmitters which make this metastasizing surveillance nightmare possible.111

Seriously, what?

MorningStar

ferdi wrote:

In ireland, we (the young people) all expect to own our own homes like our parents and grandparents before us. why? etc...

Ireland has the highest homeownsership in the world the next country is Italy that has a decreasing population! So as we are becoming like more European countries this is the most likely thing that will give. On the formation of the state there was a huge push and advertisement of the idea of people owning a piece of their country. Huge public housing development between the state and the church (they did good at one point) were built in the early years up untill the 60s all around the country. Your grandparents didn't really buy their houses they were given them! The 70s and 80s saw a huge building of council estates and private houses also. A huge portion of the population got free and cheap housing. Mass emigration and low employment meant the house prices were not making huge profits with many going bankrupt.
So the last two generations didn't buy their housing. The method of providing affordable housing changed along with employment an emigration back to the country. Surprise houses go up in price.

Firespinner wrote:

I'm not too worried. I expect that we will begin building highrise and that we will all live in apartments.......once those Greens and socialists are taken care of.

When did the greens say they didn't want high rises? I thought they were in favour to reduce car use in and around cities. THey are agasint certain areas being built on. Greens normally go on about how to use housing stock better like getting retired people out of places close to places of work.

Freelancer wrote:

Probably because they have some form of rent control to ensure landlords can't savage them, also long term leases and tennants are more responsible for the property.

Can you explain how landlords are savaging people? After 6 months you have the option to take a 4 year lease by law. How horrible is that.:eek: Rents have not gone up for years according to most.

Tenants in other countries actually decorate the places and take care of them becasue they take responsibility for their home. The lease has nothing to do with it, I was shocked to see friends decorate places they were staying in for only a year.

Tunaman you'll love V for Vendetta. What the hell do you really need to hide from the government for and why are they watching you? If you ever beleive Ireland could ge organised enough to track people you are dreaming

rainbow kirby

Meh. When I finally get the money to move out, I'll rent to live where I want, rather than living in BackArseO'Nowhere, Co.Bogland.

LFCFan

We rented for a few years before buying and after 4 years of home ownership we are still paying less per month then we were when paying rent. On top of that, we are paying our own mortgage, not someone elses, we can do what we like with the house (decorating etc), we can't get kicked out by a landlord, only a rise in interest rates can affect our payments and at the end of the day, if we don't want to live there anymore, we can sell up or rent out the house. If you can afford it, buy. It's an investment aswell as a home. Saying that of course, the market could collapse tomorrow and we'd all be screwed but sure a plane could fall on your house and you'd be rightly screwed then too. You can't live your life worrying about what might happen.

Freelancer

Can you explain how landlords are savaging people? After 6 months you have the option to take a 4 year lease by law. How horrible is that. Rents have not gone up for years according to most.

For the most part landlords are fairly decent people who don't really trouble you, but I don't know anyone who rented for more than five years who doesn't have a landlord horror story;

Be it sudden eviction, raising of rent, horrendous other tennants, repairs taking months, unsanitary conditions etc.....

In those cases you've very little recourse in Ireland the PRTB is new and finding it's teeth, and theres little you can do aside from move.

Firespinner wrote:

I'm not too worried. I expect that we will begin building highrise and that we will all live in apartments.......once those Greens and socialists are taken care of.

Once again a deserved :rolleyes: for Firespinner.

We're tearing down the high rise estates mate, they didn't work. If you think we're going to get them right this time take a look at the planning of most suburban estastes, no community resources, no local shopping everything has to be driven to, I can only imagine how bad the high rise estates you envision would get, and quickly to.

ionapaul

Originally Posted by Freelancer
Probably because they have some form of rent control to ensure landlords can't savage them, also long term leases and tennants are more responsible for the property.

As I mentioned on another thread, rents are currently DOWN on the level they were at in 2002 (check Daft.ie's quarterly report) - with the 0000s of new apartments in construction in Dublin city centre and an estimated 30% of new apartments empty (investors content to sit back, pay the mortgage and sell their never lived in property after massive capital appreciation), do you think rent will actually go up over the next few years? Maybe if another couple of hundred thousand Poles move here...to build more houses to sit empty!

Most people who say 'rent is dead money' forget that you are paying for a service - and in today's market, a tenant's market (all those empty apartments, don't you know!), if you are not getting the service you feel you deserve, it is easy to take your business elsewhere. Most landlords are very decent and will do their best to accommodate you - you are their customer after all.

LFCFan

ionapaul wrote:

it is easy to take your business elsewhere.

it's not that easy. It's not like you're changing phone company. Moving can be very stressful and there is so much involved, a lot of people will just put up with a below standard service. I've rented in 3 different apartments and only 1 of the landlords were decent. The other 2 places were a nightmare and no amount of complaining made a difference.

ionapaul

Really? I have been lucky so - maybe I don't have a lot of stuff but I can make the move in a trip or two in the car. A few of my friends have had their rents reduced this year because they said they would go elsewhere, what with all the new apartments / rooms available.

MorningStar

Freelancer wrote:

For the most part landlords are fairly decent people who don't really trouble you, but I don't know anyone who rented for more than five years who doesn't have a landlord horror story;

Be it sudden eviction, raising of rent, horrendous other tennants, repairs taking months, unsanitary conditions etc.....

I don't know any landlord that can't tell you a story about unrealistic expectation of tenants after 6 months. Most people dislike their landlord straight away and get angry straight away. I have had tenants destroy places, try to stab me, skip on rent (one leaving thier children with a mother),pile rubbish for months in the hall etc...

Once you buy a house the stories don't stop as you have neighbours and pay for your own repairs.Instead of being able to shout at the landlord when the plumber doesn't turn up you get to have the plumber ignore you and never come and then you get to do the the whole thing again as the next plumber also ignores you. Most tenants have problems becasue they don't know how difficult house maintainence is and they also do not take care of the property and appliances. I started telling tenants thay have to clean the places and they got mad.

Freelancer

MorningStar wrote:

I don't know any landlord that can't tell you a story about unrealistic expectation of tenants after 6 months. Most people dislike their landlord straight away and get angry straight away. I have had tenants destroy places, try to stab me, skip on rent (one leaving thier children with a mother),pile rubbish for months in the hall etc...

Thats not generally true, the only landlord I've had issues with, is a landlord in a flat that had severe damp problems, six months werein both myself and partner got ill (her with moderately serious sinus and respitatory illness, and myself with a rash) and clothes were ruined with damp and mold, six months of lies, stalls, and dodging phonecalls resulted in the threat of legal action.

We knew what had to be done, and offered to do it ourselves provided he paid for it, but he refused because that would be an admission of the problem, and the lease was quite clear about what work we could or could not do on the premise.

It was very frustrating.

Once you buy a house the stories don't stop as you have neighbours and pay for your own repairs.Instead of being able to shout at the landlord when the plumber doesn't turn up you get to have the plumber ignore you and never come and then you get to do the the whole thing again as the next plumber also ignores you. Most tenants have problems becasue they don't know how difficult house maintainence is and they also do not take care of the property and appliances. I started telling tenants thay have to clean the places and they got mad.

Fine but you take better care of a property you own rather than a property you rent, and neighbours are less of an annoyance when theres something more than some plasterboard between you, and you aren't all sharing a hallway.

if you are not getting the service you feel you deserve, it is easy to take your business elsewhere

I've moved three times in the last year and a half and am completely fed up with it. This is a question of changing your ISP or phone company, moving apartment is an enormous hassle, shifting stuff, discovering the new flat has less storage space than the old, theres no end to the grief.

Most people who say 'rent is dead money' forget that you are paying for a service

It is, it's also the most expensive service you'll spend your paycheck on (unless you're ordering condor omellettes from the takeaway twice a day), and after five or ten years thats 40-60 grand you just aren't getting back, ever.

Dave!

MorningStar wrote:

I don't know any landlord that can't tell you a story about unrealistic expectation of tenants after 6 months. Most people dislike their landlord straight away and get angry straight away. I have had tenants destroy places, try to stab me, skip on rent (one leaving thier children with a mother),pile rubbish for months in the hall etc...

Once you buy a house the stories don't stop as you have neighbours and pay for your own repairs.Instead of being able to shout at the landlord when the plumber doesn't turn up you get to have the plumber ignore you and never come and then you get to do the the whole thing again as the next plumber also ignores you. Most tenants have problems becasue they don't know how difficult house maintainence is and they also do not take care of the property and appliances. I started telling tenants thay have to clean the places and they got mad.

Some vested interests in that post, maybe "Rent you f*ckers, pay my mortgage!!!" Just messin with ye

The aspect of renting that appeals to me is that you can just pick up and leave whenever you like, and move on elsewhere, you don't have to get tied down in selling the house, seeing if you make your money back, etc.; but at the same time, I like the investment side of buying a house (ie. you buy, you want to move on, if the price of the house has gone up then you're laughin).

I really don't like the idea of mortgages though, taking out a loan of nearly half a million quid sounds a bit scary, doesn't it?

Well I'm just a bum student, so I'm not gonna give it too much thought atm, I'm content leeching right now After I graduate, though, I'll definitely start renting places and moving around here and there, before I decide on whether I want to buy or not.

ronbyrne2005

Kernel wrote:

Yeah, that's capitalism. Welcome to life people.

As I mentioned, it is always a better investment to buy your own property than to rent. You can rent all your life if you like, you you will end up paying out much more than you would pay out with a mortgage, and in the end you will be left with nothing.

The reason people over Europe rent so much is because the property markets there are more mature, and house prices are prohibitively high for most people, so they rent. Because the equity is more stable, and the market is mature, the rental cost isn't as likely to fluctuate as much as in our more volatile market.

WRONG
if your rent is less than the interest on an interest only loan then its not a better investment! the money you can save by renting in dublin at moment can then be invested into a pension fund which gives you a large tax benefit immediately and this money you invest while renting creates a large pension fund worth more than a house at the end of 30 years.

and houses in europe arent prohibitively expensive!have a look at any property website for germany france italy etc and you'll see houses are far cheaper than here.

Freelancer

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

WRONG
if your rent is less than the interest on an interest only loan then its not a better investment! the money you can save by renting in dublin at moment can then be invested into a pension fund which gives you a large tax benefit immediately and this money you invest while renting creates a large pension fund worth more than a house at the end of 30 years.

Horse crap, it's fine on paper as the most basic maths problem, however consider this, what were house prices in Dublin 30 years ago?

So tell me a pension plan that will give you that kind of return on the two or three hundred euro you're saving a month by renting?

You're working on the assumption that property value won't rise ahead of inflation, and that hasn't happened, at at all.

No pension fund could possibly match the return of someone who invested in property 30 years ago. Not least of which a pension fund you're only managing to squirrel a few thousand into each year.

Do you think that the housing market will slow down drastically to the point that it matchs inflation, it could well do that but then the value of the return on your pension will also slump.

Finally the person who buys a house at the end of thirty years own's their house and won't be spending any more money on rent, you meanwhile will be using your pension to pay rent on an apartment.

and houses in europe arent prohibitively expensive!have a look at any property website for germany france italy etc and you'll see houses are far cheaper than here.

Yeah you can get nice cheap property in europe, you can also get nice cheap property in Ireland, most of the cheap property is in rural areas, as in the cheap property in Ireland it's just 50,000 for a villa in tuscanny sounds like better value than 50,000 for a farmhouse outside Swinford (and actually probably is)

ronbyrne2005

Freelancer wrote:

Horse crap, it's fine on paper as the most basic maths problem, however consider this, what were house prices in Dublin 30 years ago?

So me a pension plan that will give you that kind of return on the two or three hundred euro you're saving a month by renting?
You're working on the assumption that property value won't rise ahead of inflation, and that hasn't happened, at at all.
No pension fund could possibly match the return of someone who invested in property 30 years ago. Not least of which a pension fund you're only managing to squirrel a few thousand into each year.
Do you think that the housing market will slow down drastically to the point that it matchs inflation, it could well do that but then the value of the return on your pension will also slump.
Finally the person who buys a house at the end of thirty years own's their house and won't be spending any more money on rent, you meanwhile will be using your pension to pay rent on an apartment.
Yeah you can get nice cheap property in europe, you can also get nice cheap property in Ireland, most of the cheap property is in rural areas, as in the cheap property in Ireland it's just 50,000 for a villa in tuscanny sounds like better value than 50,000 for a farmhouse outside Swinford (and actually probably is)

pensions over last 30 years have returned on average 10%per annum.the 200 to 300 a month you invest instantly increases by around 80% due to tax(if you are on 42% rate).
yes i think house prices will slow to inflation growth rates or fall over next 5years .
property is more risky now than it has ever been. if you keep paying the extra into the pension for 40 years you will have a massive pension fund and have no problem paying rent from your pension.
im not saying never buy but now is the worst time to be doing it.

ronbyrne2005

Freelancer wrote:

Horse crap, it's fine on paper as the most basic maths problem, however consider this, what were house prices in Dublin 30 years ago?

So tell me a pension plan that will give you that kind of return on the two or three hundred euro you're saving a month by renting?

You're working on the assumption that property value won't rise ahead of inflation, and that hasn't happened, at at all.

No pension fund could possibly match the return of someone who invested in property 30 years ago. Not least of which a pension fund you're only managing to squirrel a few thousand into each year.

Do you think that the housing market will slow down drastically to the point that it matchs inflation, it could well do that but then the value of the return on your pension will also slump.

Finally the person who buys a house at the end of thirty years own's their house and won't be spending any more money on rent, you meanwhile will be using your pension to pay rent on an apartment.



Yeah you can get nice cheap property in europe, you can also get nice cheap property in Ireland, most of the cheap property is in rural areas, as in the cheap property in Ireland it's just 50,000 for a villa in tuscanny sounds like better value than 50,000 for a farmhouse outside Swinford (and actually probably is)

do you realise that 350 per month is equal to 7000 a year with the tax benefits and if invested for 40 years with a ten per cent average return(this is a realistic return to expect) your fund would be worth 1,375,000 in todays money and this is in a diversified investment fund ,property isnt a diversified investment and highly risky at current valuations.

Tuesday_Girl

ferdi wrote:

Please have quick read of this post which i was inspired by to write this becasue i feel the very same as this guy - as a young person in college in ireland i see very little hope for the future. i feel i will not be able of afford the things i want or to have the life i wish for. i see ahead of me massive financial pressure, astronomical debt, hours and hours of commuting. a purely work driven life. i am basiclly scared ****less about my future in ireland and it feels increasingly likely that i will end up leaving this country for good. and it got me thinking...

In ireland, we (the young people) all expect to own our own homes like our parents and grandparents before us. why? many millions of people in europe and the states live perfectly happy and secure lives, long term renting their homes. it seems to me that the irish as a nation have some archaic desire to own their own house and land - like in 'The Field' or the something. we all have fear in the back of our minds that the Brits are going to come and rack rent us. we are still very insecure in our independence and this is displayed in the way we all seem to need to own a piece of the counrty. How is this a reasonable expectation? house prices and commute times surely make buying a house an act of madness?

everyone goes on about how Ireland has changed so much bla bla bla, so in light of this, is it reasonable for us all to expect to own our own house? Our parents did, but that was a different time, a whole other world in which you had a job for life and you could pick a cheap house and settle down happily ever after in one place. Today people changes jobs as often as they do shoes so in reality dosnt owning a house tie you down? dosnt it completely destroy any mobility and flexibility which is so clearly needed in the modern working environment?

i guess i dont really know what point i'm making other than - dispite our 'prosperity' i think many irish young people are scared of the future and the expectations put on them by society and themselves. why do i need to own my house? security? what about freedom and flexiblility to up and go if you need/want to?

comments?

I currently live abroad and while I would like to move back to Ireland one day, I would have to sacrifice both my current quality of life and standard of living in order to do so. I know people who are killing themselves to pay a mortgage every month, spending 3-4 hours a day commmuting, dropping kids at a creche at 7am and picking them up 12 hours later, and I don't want that to be my life.

Moving back to Ireland would result in a significant drop in my disposable income, and in my quality of life, and I would struggle to able to afford my own place, which I can easily do here.

Given that, I have no immediate plans to move back, but would do so if I either miss Ireland enough, or else feel that I am in a position to do so without having to make so many sacrifices.

Dave!

Razzle wrote:

I currently live abroad and while I would like to move back to Ireland one day, I would have to sacrifice both my current quality of life and standard of living in order to do so. I know people who are killing themselves to pay a mortgage every month, spending 3-4 hours a day commmuting, dropping kids at a creche at 7am and picking them up 12 hours later, and I don't want that to be my life.

Moving back to Ireland would result in a significant drop in my disposable income, and in my quality of life, and I would struggle to able to afford my own place, which I can easily do here.

Given that, I have no immediate plans to move back, but would do so if I either miss Ireland enough, or else feel that I am in a position to do so without having to make so many sacrifices.

Would you mind letting us know where you're living at the moment? Just curious!

Sleepy

What kills me is that it's practically impossible for a single person to buy their own place without either facing a horrendous commute or crippling their quality of life for the first 4/5 years of the mortgage. It's estimated that to get a mortgage to buy an average three bedroom semi in Dublin you need to be earning over 60k a year if you're buying as a single :eek:

At my current salary I could afford to buy a two bed apartment if I had a partner who was earning roughly the same as me. As a single, I've no choice but to rent for the moment. I'd share ronbyrnes wariness about buying property in Ireland at the moment. When you look at the stupid money being spent on houses (the house next door to where I'm renting went 650k - for a four bedroom semi with poor build quality, paper thin walls and in need of about 30k to make it presentable!!!) it's just stupid to think that the capital appreciation can continue. A correction is an economic certainty, it's just a matter of time and I for one won't shed a tear for anyone caught in a negative equity situation: it'll be your own fault for not looking at what you were spending.

I read an article a few years ago about a council meeting in England where a few million pounds worth of spending on an over-priced contract was authorised in ten minutes whilst £500 to paint some council building was debated over for an hour. The author put this down to people not being able to relate to the value of the few million whilst everyone there could relate to the smaller sum of £500. I think this is happening to a large degree in Ireland, we can all appreciate that a €4 cup of coffee is a rip-off (and whine about it to no end) but can't seem to fathom that the hundreds of thousands we're forking out for houses that just aren't worth that kind of money are just as over-priced.

Personally, it amazes me that people can get involved in a bubble economy so soon after the .com bubble of the 90's. Have we really got such short memories?

constitutionus

agree compleatly with ya sleepy. makes me glad i bought my houses years ago, even a fifty percent depreciation will still mean i'd make a profit on em. my heart really goes out to this generation