Sardined in the DART

GallicProphet

Here is a thought... this morning I had to rugby tackle my way into the DART, as I do pretty much everyday in Raheny.

Some people couldnt get in.

The "lucky" ones who made it in had to cope with being packed like the proverbial sardines... actually I think cattle have better transport conditions. I really feel for people of a certain age, women or children.

I wonder what the situation will be when this new station in Grange Road becomes operational up the road... it's gonna be a fight to death to get in. Maybe getting rid of the seats alltogether would be a solution.

Ag marbh

It's the exact same on the Maynooth line with people fainting regularly.

daymobrew

Ag marbh wrote:

It's the exact same on the Maynooth line with people fainting regularly.

What time train?

Employers need to start being flexible with start and finish times, maybe even allowing people to work from home some days. With the stress of commuting removed, the employee may work better and longer. I know I do. Employees have to be honest about the hours they put in - it's a give'n'take thing.

MarkoP11

GallicProphet wrote:

Maybe getting rid of the seats alltogether would be a solution.

Nope getting the 20 DART coaches currently in Prague back would be a much more practical solution

daymobrew has a very good point no matter how much extra capacity there is its still jammers the question is why does everyone want to hit the city at 8:20-8:50 ? No matter who great the system is its impossible to move everyone into a 2km square area in 30 minutes

There will be 3 more trains per hour inbound by 2009 but only one will be a DART but thats space for at least another 1,200

BrianD

It's the same the world over ...

dowlingm

Yes, and now the free travel crowd are going be able to travel at peak :rolleyes:

MarkoP11

BrianD wrote:

It's the same the world over ...

They pay people in Tokyo to squash more in, the latest batch of DART coaches are almost identical to the ones in use in Tokyo

Its a fact of life, London, Paris its the same

highdef

MarkoP11, do you know when these Darts are coming back from Prague? I know they were originally due back way back in November but over 4 months after this date, there is still not a sign of them. Are there any progress reports, photos or something like that? Have to admit I can't wait to see them - If they've been away for this long (must be a year at this stage), they must be doing some really really serious work to them. Do you have any info on what is the current state of play with them. I've posted a few times on platform11 and Irishrailwaynews but nobody seems to be very interested, which I find extremely surprising as I thought the people who frequent the site would be mad interested in these Darts.

MarkoP11

If I knew when they where coming back I wouldn't have bothered posting it

The date sequence runs like this

December 2004 first 6 coaches ship
March 2005 6 more ship
April 2005 8 more ship
Initial deadline for first back in service is June 2005
Further shipments suspended
Siemens only sign contract for CCTV equipment in August 2005
Deadline revised to November (informed of this on the first week of September)
Deadline then further revised to February

IE refuse to provide any real details other than moving the date further into the future. The rebuilt coaches will be instantly recognisable.

What people are interested in is getting to and from work in reasonable comfort most couldn't care if a steam engine hauled the train provided it showed up on time was clean had working lights and working heating as required

This work was planned and timetabled in a correct manner but wont finish ontime, no train has been cancellled or shortened as a result so no one notices

A further 6 coaches are out of service as well, that makes 26 in total

Maskhadov

ever been in the Japanese subway

markf909

ever been in the Japanese subway

My experience of that was never as bad as expected. Trains were constantly busy but
seldom packed like sardines.
Now standing in the JR station in Shinjuku waiting for the last one or two trains of the day, that was in fitting with the stereotype of crowded trains
I have video footage of it somewhere, the guards trying to force close the doors!!

MT

MarkoP11 wrote:

They pay people in Tokyo to squash more in,...

But isn't there a serious problem with sexual harassment/assault on Japanese railways - what with people packed so close together and all. Surely such a job must be an easy target for complainants? Not a task I'd fancy.

ro2

MarkoP11 wrote:

They pay people in Tokyo to squash more in, the latest batch of DART coaches are almost identical to the ones in use in Tokyo

No wonder the seats are so small...

marie_85

The Maynooth line is a joke. Even with extra trains in the morning, its still full by Leixlip. Occasionally some people in Clonsilla get a seat. I've fainted on it myself once, and there's constantly delays on it. Whats 'signal failure' code for?

Transport21 Fan

MT wrote:

But isn't there a serious problem with sexual harassment/assault on Japanese railways - what with people packed so close together and all. Surely such a job must be an easy target for complainants? Not a task I'd fancy.

In some Indian cities they have male and female commuter coaches.

paulm17781

MT wrote:

Surely such a job must be an easy target for complainants? Not a task I'd fancy.

Yeah but it's Japan. They don't sue people whenever possible the way scroungers do over here.

Transport21 Fan

marie_85 wrote:

The Maynooth line is a joke. Even with extra trains in the morning, its still full by Leixlip. Occasionally some people in Clonsilla get a seat. I've fainted on it myself once, and there's constantly delays on it. Whats 'signal failure' code for?

The Maynooth line timetable is heavily padded. It cannot realistically be considered mass transit as the trains are too far apart- like the DART it operates at about the same frequency as many rural branch lines in the UK and Europe. There are some technical reasons for this, but the main issue is the way railways are run in the country - "keep it country" would be a good motto to describe how CIE think in terms of rail commuting. There is no culture of urban mass transit within CIE. They are an olde timey railway for bringing civil servants back to Mayo on the weekends and this archaic approach to public transport is also applied to their commuter services as well. If any other European railway company operated the Maynooth line it would stick twice the number of trains on it. The headways between trains would be much tighter and as a result far more services with the same number ot trains.

There is no attempt within Irish Rail to push the railway to anywhere close to its operational limits. Even to the most causal observer can see there are tons of extra slots on all rail lines leading into Dublin. An internationally respected transport enginneer once told me that RyanAir can turn around a 747 quicker than Irish Rail can a railcar or Dart.

I have seen it myself at Bray. Deco the DART driver seems to have a clause in his contract were after leaving one end of the train, he sits and reads the paper, talks to some of the lads about the match YV the night before, scratches his arse and then makes a slow walk to the front of the train. He arses around a bit more in the cab...scratches his arse some more and then starts driving. In the space it take this to happen you could have turned around 4 DARTs.

Stand at the end of Connolly Station platform any run hour morning and you'll see the gaps, the spaces, the platforms in the main shed which go unused. - Meanwhile downstairs Luas trams and zipping in and out of Connolly no bother. The only diffence is that CIE Unions rule the roost upstairs and Connex tells the Luas drivers to "get on with it" downstairs.

Things will at least comestically improve when the new station at Spencer Dock opens up, but you do realise that there'll will be a CIE union "stress" strike in and around the time of the opening of Docklands. So hang on to the car for now.

mdebets

But the overcrowding is the best part of the journey. Imagine being stuck so clsoe to a hot blonde for 30 min.
Damn, why is my bus always half empty?

MarkoP11

Its got nothing to do with unions there simply aren't enough trains to fill all the gaps, thats the reality

parsi

Transport21 Fan wrote:

An internationally respected transport enginneer once told me that RyanAir can turn around a 747 quicker than Irish Rail can a railcar or Dart.

Do Ryanair have 747s now ?

MarkoP11

There is no real urgency in turning around since in almost all cases a train set can only make one trip per rush hour, turnarounds of 5 minutes on DART services are not uncommon, I've seen it done in under 3 minutes. Suburban turnarounds of 10 minutes are fairly common.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

An internationally respected transport enginneer once told me that RyanAir can turn around a 747 quicker than Irish Rail can a railcar or Dart.

Check you facts first as thats impossible Ryanair never owned a 747 not a very well respected engineer then. Ryanair can manage 20 minutes if they are luck, thats dealing with 189 people at most

Third_Echelon

parsi wrote:

Do Ryanair have 747s now ?

Thank god they don't!!! Imagine more than 2 hours on a Ryanair flight... They'd probably start charging for use of the toilet!

MarkoP11 wrote:

Check you facts first as thats impossible Ryanair never owned a 747 not a very well respected engineer then. Ryanair can manage 20 minutes if they are luck, thats dealing with 189 people at most

eh... I think they call it sarcasm (or exaggeration) these days :rolleyes:

strassenwolf

Third_Echelon wrote:

Imagine more than 2 hours on a Ryanair flight... They'd probably start charging for use of the toilet!

Much more likely that they'd get rid of the toilet altogether and try and fit in a few more passengers - I'm surprised they haven't done this already:p

icdg

Ag marbh wrote:

It's the exact same on the Maynooth line with people fainting regularly.

In my experience, the Maynooth line in the morning peak makes the DART look empty - and I have to take them both daily. The service improvements in December, were welcome, but have had little preceptible effect on crowding.

daymobrew

icdg wrote:

In my experience, the Maynooth line in the morning peak makes the DART look empty - and I have to take them both daily. The service improvements in December, were welcome, but have had little preceptible effect on crowding.

marie_85 wrote:

Even with extra trains in the morning, its still full by Leixlip. Occasionally some people in Clonsilla get a seat.

icdg and marie_85 - what time trains are you getting? I asked Ag marbh ealier but haven't seen a response.

Before the December timetable change I used to take the 7:55 from Coolmine. It was busy but a good improvement on previous years. No seats but standing room was bareable. I've taken the 8:06 service from Coolmine (terminates at Connolly) a few times. It was even better. Still no seats but comfortable standing room.
With respect to fainting, when I take the train I'm usually dressed for running to work (East Point) from Drumcondra, so it would take a lot of heat to make me faint.

I've been quite impressed with the services introduced last December (relative to what they were). While they could be better, we're moving in the right direction and I'm grateful for these positive changes.

Anyone on for cycling to work? Employers should realise that it's a minute investment to provide a shower and bike parking facilities for a great gain in employee well being. I mostly cycle the 9 miles from Carpenterstown to East Point Business Park. The shower at work is very refreshing. And I get exercise without having to spend money on a gym. I've been lucky that all the companies I've worked for have had showers and are accomodating for cyclists.

icdg

daymobrew wrote:

icdg and marie_85 - what time trains are you getting? I asked Ag marbh ealier but haven't seen a response

0736 Maynooth-Pearse, though I get on mid way...

On several occasions (where the train is significantly late), I have actually heard the driver make announcments saying that another train will be along in 5 minutes and to please allow the doors to close (the subtext, though he can't really say it, is "get off this train and wait for the next one"). This happens when the train is so late the crowd for the next one (the 0745 Maynooth-Connolly) has arrived at the station. To be fair, the train is punctual most days, more than I can say for the 0825 DART ex Connolly to Malahide, late far too often for my liking...

MarkoP11

The southside had a massive overcrowding problem after Greystones was added to the DART you would be lucky to get on the first train that came. Once everything moved from 4 coach to 6 coach the problem reduced and then with limited 8 coach its now acceptable (northside got most of the 8 coach sets), southside is easy as there is only 1 suburban train per hour

Its choas on the northside even with plently 8 coach trains, Drogheda trains are equally full, of course the DART is designed to carry a lot more people per coach

Maynooth line to be fair has done well in the last 10 years frequency has doubled if not trippled, the capacity of each train has doubled.

The DoT approach to funding is they refuse and refuse until things start to get ugly. Maynooth go lucky twice, the funding to relay and double the line came from EU money originally intended for Luas, the new railcars which enabled the 2 extra services this year came thanks to the NRA having a underspend

Its a no win game as the catchment area on the Maynooth line is in fact greater than the southside DART line and the difference is growing, demand is growing at a faster rate than capacity can be increased.

The plan submitted to the DoT by IE stated if the money was available DART to Maynooth and Dunboyne could be in place by 2012, the DoT have now put that off to at least 2015. Overcrowding is the DoT's fault not IE, crap off peak service is IE

Jonny Arson

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its choas on the northside even with plently 8 coach trains, Drogheda trains are equally full, of course the DART is designed to carry a lot more people per coach

Pretty much any train on the Northside in betwwen 7:45 - 9:00 is wildly overcrowded. I personally don't care if I'm seated or not but at these times you are lucky if you get a seat at Bayside (3rd stop) which using your imagination you can easily picture what its like come Killester and Clontarf.... major health and safety issue as far as I'm concerned. It's got worse since they put one of the Howth to Howth Junction DARTs on the Malahide line.

I feel sorry for people having to use the Drogheda/Dundalk trains. I've seen people not been even able to board the trains at Tara Street going northbound and I've been told for a fact that people can't board the train on many occasions at Donabate.... late for work!

It's simply madness for such a developed nation like ours that we have to put up with this and despite all of the planned developments with Transport21 sight has been lost on our current rail transport difficulties.

Out of interest, if someone died as a result of overcrowding on a train (which could well happen if you ask me), are Ianrod Eireann fully responsible and if yes, why is this overcrowding situation been allowed to continue without enforcement?

MarkoP11

All trains on suburban services are now proper suburban trains which are suitable for a large number of standees. Its impossible to even achieve the design limit in practice

If you want to complain:
1. If your query relates to a technical or operational aspect of railway safety, including crowding on trains, please contact

The Railway Safety Commission

4th Floor
Trident House
Blackrock
Co. Dublin
Phone: +353 (0) 1 2068110
Fax: +353 (0) 1 2068115/116
Email: ckeenahan@rsc.ie

The primary safety issue with crowding is on trains not designed to allow for standing passengers

Of course you can sue but its a conscious decision on your part to board a train, if you have a pre existing medical condition well you are asking for trouble.

Interestingly based on my expeience I've only seen women collapse and generally only in the morning. People eat a decent breakfast seriously its good for you

Transport 21 ignores existing rail and bus users in favour of big vote grabbing projects of course the western rail corridor has top priority, its a vote grabbing exercise to ensure Fianna Fail keep there seats not whats public interest

Victor

dowlingm wrote:

Yes, and now the free travel crowd are going be able to travel at peak :rolleyes:

No, its only after 9am.

mdebets wrote:

But the overcrowding is the best part of the journey. Imagine being stuck so clsoe to a hot blonde for 30 min.
Damn, why is my bus always half empty?

Shared the toilet cubicle with my economics lecturer. Rar

dowlingm

Victor

didn't someone (Seamus Brennan?) announce the end of that restriction the other day?

MarkoP11

Free travel always applied on rail and Luas without time restriction. Dublin Bus inforced a time restriction during the rush hours, the hours of which have been reduced. There was a modal shift at 4:30 from Bus to Train to avoid paying the fare. Its yet another clever angle to maximise revenue income. Of course the companies almost certainly don't get 100% matching payment

The argument is the folks with free passes need to get to work (!!!). Its a perk used to the extreme by some and unavailable to others by virture of location, not a right, you can travel if you pay like the rest of us at busy times.

That said the majority have the cop on not to try the DART at 8:15am anyway its just plain not a good place to be in your later years, given healthy people in there 20's are collapsing its clearly a good idea to steer clear

Slice

I thought lack of trains on the Maynooth line were to do with the number of trains it was possible to run into Connolly per hour? With Northern Line/Enterprise services, Maynooth line and Dart services all running into/through Connolly and on the loop line there is only so much capacity. I think services on Maynooth should increase once Spencer Dock is open for Maynooth trains to terminate there and this in turn should increase capacity on Dart and Northern services as well.

MarkoP11

Contrary to the never ending lies from Irish Rail, there is plenty of spare capacity into Connolly in the morning, as it stands Maynooth could have 6 trains per hour to Connolly with 3 reaching Pearse or Bray, at the moment the best IE manage is 4.

The problem always has been a lack of trains, there are 4 coach trains still running in the rush hour from both Maynooth and Drogheda, there is an extra 1200 capacity there without running any extra trains. There is space for one more Drogheda train and also space for an extra service from Arklow all arriving between 8 and 8:50am

When I tabled two extra northern line trains last year the IE response was silence as they couldn't say it wasn't possible, they added one in December.

It is true that the system will be completely saturated in the next 5 years it appears Irish Rail are making things look worse than they are. This never ending we would have to cancel a train on another route to add another on route x is bull. There is a simple tradeoff, you can have 3 8 coach trains or 4 6 coach trains, in the 6 coach case the window is open to move to 8

BendiBus

MarkoP11 wrote:

It is true that the system will be completely saturated in the next 5 years it appears Irish Rail are making things look worse than they are.

Considering how slowly decisions get made, this may be a good approach. Make it look bad today and there may be some improvement 5 years from now.

MarkoP11

BendiBus wrote:

Considering how slowly decisions get made, this may be a good approach. Make it look bad today and there may be some improvement 5 years from now.

And I'm meant to feel good about that, the here and now maters, who gives a damn about the mind games and politics of the situation we want a better service now and it is possible. IE have mislead the public with respect to the capacity problem

Its the lack of honesty, plently of excuses talk of new stations etc but strangely no order for trains themselves