To Man or not to Man

jman

Realistically ...

What will a MAN do for an area that previously did not have one ?

(For example Furbo, Galway. Right now there is no residential BB package available in the area).

My understanding is that MANs are not aimed at consumer/residential market
but are there to provide backhaul for either Businesses or 3rd party
providers who wish to offer Broadband services.

watty

No. MANs do NOT provide even backhaul to anywhere. It is basically a loop (or several) of fibre around a town. Without interconnectivity to existing backhaul it would only allow one office in a town (say at 100M to 1G) to communicte direct with another large office in the the town. A MAN on its own provides no end user or even fibre to kerb near ordinary end user.

It is a solution to a not very important problem compared with BB itself.

If a wireless operator found its mast on one end of town and BT/CIE/ESB or even Eircom (much more expensive, they charge a premium for MAN connection) backhaul connection on the other side of town, then a MAN "almost accidently" would be involved in bring Broadband.

But in terms of what a MAN is and the Irish Implementation and Eircom pricing to connect either backhaul or users, they don't help Broadband at all. A waste of money.

Once you are a town less than 10,000 to 50,000 probabily a MAN is an overkill.

MAN = Metropolitan Area Network. How many Metropolises are there in Ireland? In Limerick you would hit most of the potential "MAN" users with connecting Raheen, Plassey and Shannon Industrial parks / areas. Arguable any "backhaul" fibre system could go past those three anyway in connecting other areas.

Brooklyn in New York is about the same population as entire ROI. A MAN there makes sense.

We are going to have 140 yes ONE HUNDRED & FORTY MANs when we are done. A bunch of fibre in a loop simply passing each Town/City over 10,000 is all the MAN Ireland needs.

How much capacity and where does the "Western corridor" fibre go / come? Doesn't it start off in Dublin and get to Limerick, Shannon and Galway?

Eircom national network fibre is underused as they want too much money. ESB is more popular!

Anyone know how much national fibre we have (not MAN) and % utilisation?

jman

Is'nt it the "intention" that MANs will be inter connected through out the country using existing fibre networks (ESB) etc, thereby providing backhaul network, that businesses and other BB providers can leverage ?

If not whats the point ? Why go to all that expense if it does not advance the
roll out of Broadband.

damien

At MOST and a very generous MOST, there are probably 4000 broadband connections using the MANs. So far the live MANs have cost the taxpayer 80million. 20k per broadband connections. Fabtastic!

Now the new MANs are going to areas with less backhaul not more.

But don't ask the obvious question just rejoice that the Govt is spending 170m in total on this and for christ's sake don't point out that the Empreror has no clothes.

zuma

So they are basically building a network for small towns around Ireland but not connection them to anything????

Bantry, where I grew up as a child, is getting a MAN....and has a population in the Town itself of less than 2,000!!!!
ALSOLUTE INSANITY!!!!

watty

It's comic

zuma

More like scary and stupid....what a waste of money.

This is up their with paving a massive network of roads and having damn all cars driving on them.....oh sorry that was Ireland in the 80's.....hahahaha!!!

But Bantry is NO WHERE NEAR the main ESB fibre backbone.....its an hours drive from it......yet its still getting a MAN....!!!!!

thegills

Guys,
What about the larger picture? Some MAN / ESBT facts.
The MAN's have been operational probably less than 2 year's and the ESBT backhaul has been connected to the MAN's less than 18 months.
In that short time ESBT and the MAN's have enabled Smart, Magnet, Digiweb, IBB, Leap and Clearwire to roll-out national broadband networks.
There are currently over 200 SME+ companies connected to the MANs.
The MAN's have enabled Chorus to rollout cable broadband to Cork and coming soon to Limerick.
They have enabled Vodafone to backhaul their 3G traffic from all over the country back to Dublin.
The MAN's are providing backhaul to GBS
Do you think that Amazon would have set up shop in Cork if it were not for ESBT and the Cork MAN?

There are still a lot of questions to be answered and the MAN's are only a part of the answer but the above should shed some light on their worth.

In terms of the next Phase have all of the posters here seen the design for the next phase. Who an say that backhaul has not been included as part of the delivered solution?

thegills

watty

No-one denies you can use them up. The arguement is that that money would have been much better spent elsewhere. Without CIE/ESBT/ESB backhaul fibre none would be any use at all.

Sponge Bob

thegills wrote:

Guys,
What about the larger picture? Some MAN / ESBT facts.
The MAN's have been operational probably less than 2 year's and the ESBT backhaul has been connected to the MAN's less than 18 months.

In that short time ESBT and the MAN's have enabled Smart, Magnet, Digiweb, IBB, Leap and Clearwire to roll-out national broadband networks.

Correct. A MAN with no ESB Fibre backhaul, such as Kiltimagh or Ballina , is useless. With both in place they are delivering where they are operational, Galway , Cork , Limerick, Athlone, Waterford and Sligo are far better connected now than even a year ago...and streets ahead of where they were 2 years ago

The MAN's are providing backhaul to GBS

Correct . That was not the original intention in 2002 though . There was no plan for GBS back then sure didn't Mary O Rourke believed eircom would roll out DSL nationwide no worries.

Do you think that Amazon would have set up shop in Cork if it were not for ESBT and the Cork MAN?

Correct, they would have gone to Dublin like eBay, Google , Paypal had to 2 years ago.

There are still a lot of questions to be answered and the MAN's are only a part of the answer but the above should shed some light on their worth.

I am personally convinced of their worth once plugged into reasonably priced National fibre. More of that please .

In terms of the next Phase have all of the posters here seen the design for the next phase. Who an say that backhaul has not been included as part of the delivered solution?

I can. No extension to ESB fibre , or in the case of Furbo a 6km extension to the Galway MAN, has been announced. Therefore the bloody thing will be stranded. All MAN designs are standalone.

I said it before. We need a joined up National Network for which we need joined up thinking . Much has already been done or is off to tender shortly .

Incidentally #1 , this particular Furbo MAN is ONLY being installed because the government is decentralising civil servants there. Thats a total 10 Civil Servants or 1 decentralised civil servant for every km of Fibre that is ultimately required.

Incidentally #2, what THE HELL has happened to the other National Fibre Network which is close to certain MAN towns where the ESB ain't ?? The Gaspipe one .

useruser

You people are so negative! The MANs in Kiltimagh and Furbo are already being put to fantastic use:

http://www.lairs.co.uk/Kyre/images/optic2.jpg

Why are you so down on this new technology?

eircomtribunal

thegills wrote:

Guys,
What about the larger picture? Some MAN / ESBT facts.

The MAN's have enabled Chorus to rollout cable broadband to Cork and coming soon to Limerick.
They have enabled Vodafone to backhaul their 3G traffic from all over the country back to Dublin.
The MAN's are providing backhaul to GBS
Do you think that Amazon would have set up shop in Cork if it were not for ESBT and the Cork MAN?

What about summing up so far like this:

MAN's already make, or will make sense for the bigger places. (Albeit things like Vodafone using them as backhaul is not an argument that justifies government funding IMO)

For the smaller places the fibre under their footpath does and will probably not make sense. The smaller places, and that's the majority, should be connected to the MAN called MAN-Ireland (watty's suggestion), but do not need useless strands dug in loops of eigths. Wireless providers would have no difficulty to connect to the MAN-Ireland point in the town. As a priority the exchanges of the incumbent should get connected to this MAN-Ireland, and with functional LLU in place, competition can start to work.

I am wary of the DCMNR spin.

The MAN's are providing backhaul to GBS

To what extent is local MAN fibre used in GBS schemes? Or do you mean some backhaul over ESB being used by the likes of LastMile. The latter isn't an argument for loop-digging in small towns.

(The DCMNR spin machine is not confidence building. Just look at the incorrect and self-congratulating DCMNR press releases about O2 "abolishing" roaming in NI, taken up by all the media, when in fact only a tiny number of O2 corporate customers – not the prepay and not the monthly-pay customers – are no longer charged for roaming in NI.)
P.

watty

Glad to see UserUser has a sense of humour


My summary is:
The MANs can be useful and some are useful. But not the best solution. SB's comment about needed an overall joined up thinking is good.

jman

Which brings me back to my question. What will a MAN do for the likes of Furbo ?

At least initially it seems the answer is "nothing", unless connected to
backhaul AND leveraged by BB providers. Big IFs !

AFAIK the issue in Furbo, is not backhaul but availability of price competitive BB
residential package for ALL. To the best of my knowledge there is
backhaul ( Eircom Fibre) or at least backhaul connectivity available (Leap).
But there are no providers offering res. BB packages in the area. Why ? because
there are richer pickings in the city.

Eircom have effectively stopped short with DSL at the door step of Furbo(for
some unknown reason). Leap (Com1)/Udaras GBS scheme targets (& priced) at
business end only.

For sure a MAN would be "nice", and may in fact promote development in the area.
But if it doesn't come with backhaul connectivity and at least one provider
which will deliver price competitive BB package then it effectively is useless.
(Is it true a MAN comes with a Mast ?)

I completely agree that this country needs in terms of BB is joined up thinking.
More importantly though this "thinking" needs to look at the best allocation of
state funds to drive a number of different BB enablement solutions tailored to fit the local requirements (rural, urban).

Sponge Bob

Not that much joined up thinking is required at the National Level. Let me explain.

Lets assume that the c.120 MANS already announced in 2002 (O Rourke) 2003 (Ahern) and 2004 (Decentralisation) are in place ...they will be by 2008

Lets assume that the ESB fibre and the Bord Gáis fibres are in place (and some extra pops are added by 2008) .

Therefore most of the MANs are on or close to a National Fibre Network .

All we need for True National Coverage is the following.

1. Install as many extra MANs as are required to ensure that no person in Ireland is more than 40km from a MAN. Ensure they all have a mast. Therefore you are ensuring that there is fibre to within 40km of every household in Ireland together with a Mast for wireless relaying off that MAN to the vicinity. Ensure that all gateway towns according to the National Spacer Strategy are included. I would estimate that completing that MAN network will require another 30 or so projects in addition to whats announced or in progress or already there .

2. Extend the ESB and Bord Gáis fibres , as necessary and according to convenience , to connect one or the other of them to each MAN. Use ESB Fibre wrap in preference to Bord Gáis fibre dig in all cases where there is a choice unless there is an imperative to supply Gas to a town.

We can take it as read that the National Grids for electricity and gas will never be sold after what the privatised Eircom got up to.

3. Bring in a tax relief scheme to incentivise the installation of quality masts in rural areas.....on the lines of Horse Shagging relief or Car Park relief or Holiday Homes in Leitrim or Creche building .

Run this Mast Tax Relief scheme for the tax years 2007 and 2008 . It will pull in lots of finance to build masts in rural areas . Scale the relief according to population density as in 1% off your tax bill in Westmoreland Street and 100% beyond Croagh Patrick .

We now have a National network , joined up, to withing 40km of each and every household in Ireland .

We now have a quality mast infrastructure beyond that .

Then Let the Market/GBS do the rest . By all means look at the Chambers of Commerce €2Bn FTTH scheme for the larger urbanised areas with populations of 5000 or above after the MANs are in , mainly because each FTTH scheme will have a MAN and Backhaul in place already.

The whole bloody lot (bar the last mile FTTH scheme) could basically be in place by end 2008 but it requires Vision and Joined Up Thinking . Joined up thinking is sadly lacking in this country ...save in certain parts of the Civil Service as I have often explained.... and thats why we are heading down the swannee when the property bubble bursts .

The mere fact that a joined up scheme is underway can help ameliorate the possible consequences of the bubble bursting and maybe soften the landing .

watty

But as implemented a MAN does not have any mast.

A MAN in Irish terms is only a loop of fibre(s) around the town.

BTW, ANY phone company and/or Wireless BB compamy is absolutely welcome to stick a 50ft to 90ft mast at the corner of my garden providing I'm allowed to climb it and put my own aerials on it.

Masts are:
RTE, Garda, ESB, Firedept, Council, Bord Gais, Mobile Phone company, Eircom, private Mobile Radio operator and a few Army. Also many building's roofs. Site access is expensive for any 3rd party. At this stage because of Mobile Phone /RTE / Mobile Radio the national coverage is good, but site access for a new Wireless data operator is poor (or cost is high).

This IMO for rural areas needs addressed as much as LLU for adsl in city/urban areas.

Sponge Bob

There are 120 projects done or announced. Of those:

The FIRST 20 MAN implementations do not have a Mast, the other 100 will.

The FIRST 20 MANs also tend to be in large towns like Limerick Cork Galway where maybe 3 or 4 masts should be installed , as well as Kiltimagh, Gweedore and Manorhamilton of course which would benefit hugely from just the one .

I suspect that a package of 30 masts , retrofitted , would sort that problem out.

The NEXT 100 MAN implementations will ALL have a Mast , thats everything tendered out since 2004 .

thegills

Which brings me back to my question. What will a MAN do for the likes of Furbo

Is there an eircom exchange in Furbo? Suppose Magnet or Smart wanted to roll out LLU to this exchange (or any other exchange in a small town), how would they get their traffic out of the exchange? you can't put an antenna on top of an eircom exchange. If there is MAN fibre outside then the carrier can order a PPC and connect to the MAN.

The FIRST 20 MAN implementations do not have a Mast

What about high buildings; you don't always need a mast?

jman

Furbo lines show up as connected to Barna/Spiddal exchanges on Smarts line
checker. However if you phone Eircom they will say you are served from
"Furbo Cab". Not sure what exactly is in this. All I know is, it was newly installed last year and is NOT DSL enabled.

Eircom say it will be enabled at some stage, but is not on any short -> medium term plans.

Sponge Bob

thegills wrote:

What about high buildings; you don't always need a mast?

Ye are spoilt by all them new skyscrapers down in Limerick but don't assume the other towns have skyscrapers .

The same local authorities that are getting MAN funding often own the highest point in the town , the WATER TOWER, and won't let anybody put any gear onto it.

Our local authorities in Ireland, especially the verminous so called 'planners' and the sanitation engineers who think that they, not the public, own the water towers, would be better off being executed en masse .

They are most incapable of joined up thinking at local authority level in my opinion , no matter how many planning acts you give them .

damien

thegills wrote:

Guys,
What about the larger picture? Some MAN / ESBT facts.
The MAN's have been operational probably less than 2 year's and the ESBT backhaul has been connected to the MAN's less than 18 months.
In that short time ESBT and the MAN's have enabled Smart, Magnet, Digiweb, IBB, Leap and Clearwire to roll-out national broadband networks.
There are currently over 200 SME+ companies connected to the MANs.

Other facts and the larger picture:
80 million spent. 4000 or less consumers getting broadband as a result and NOT the 10s of 1000s or 100s of 1000s that some director from ENet was recently quoted as saying.
Largest customer pays less than 150k a year.
ENet has losses so far of 4 million and they are GROWing.

They have enabled Vodafone to backhaul their 3G traffic from all over the country back to Dublin.

And that helps consumers how? Voda who charge more per head here than anywhere else in the world is going to pass on cost savings, yes? How the hell does this help with getting consumers broadband?

The MAN's are providing backhaul to GBS

How many? How much is each GBS charged?

Do you think that Amazon would have set up shop in Cork if it were not for ESBT and the Cork MAN?

They'll cure cancer next then, yes? Why didn't Amazon move to another town with a MAN then where it would be cheaper again to set up shop?

In terms of the next Phase have all of the posters here seen the design for the next phase. Who an say that backhaul has not been included as part of the delivered solution?

Can you say and detail otherwise?

The issue here is that Dempsey and DCMNR brag, boast and bull that MANs are getting a lot of consumers broadband and that the 170m is money well spent. MANs are not the solution. They are a small cog in the solution but Dempsey et al will not have us believe that and ENet are not saying otherwise themselves. Until LLU is sorted and local planning issues are sorted and every MAN gets backhaul then I will still go on record saying that MANs are as wasteful as so many other Government plans.

The emperor still has no clothes. MANs are just his shoes.

watty

Sponge Bob wrote:

Ye are spoilt by all them new skyscrapers down in Limerick but don't assume the other towns have skyscrapers .

The same local authorities that are getting MAN funding often own the highest point in the town , the WATER TOWER, and won't let anybody put any gear onto it.

Our local authorities in Ireland, especially the verminous so called 'planners' and the sanitation engineers who think that they, not the public, own the water towers, would be better off being executed en masse .

They are most incapable of joined up thinking at local authority level in my opinion , no matter how many planning acts you give them .

All true.

Except the Skyscrapers make great masts. NASA and UK GCHQ and US NSA would be proud of the stuff on them here in Limerick.

Actually the Limerick Water tower near Monaleen has sprouted a lot of antenna. It used to have none. Most but not all look like Mobile phone. maybe they are opening up the water towers?

Blaster99

Surely the mobile masts will pollute the water? It's nearly as bad as Sellafield I hear.

eircomtribunal

sponge and thegills,

can we assume from both of you not answering the question what the MANs' actual loops of fibre underneath the small towns will be useful for, that you have no convincing response to that?

Using masts for rural connectivity and partial private circuits for OLO's to connect their LLU equipment in eircom exchanges to the MAN's backhaul network is all very fine, will have significant positive consequences on the competitive situation – all agreed – ; but if the actual loops of fibre in the small towns are of no use, why not concentrate on the MANs' national backhaul, Mast and eircom-exchange connectivity?

Could it be that the construction of the overkill/useless small town fibre highway loops will simply go ahead because:
it is already planned,
it is already grant-agreed this way with the EC,
it is complicated, from a political and administrative point to make changes, however much sense they would make?

P.

Sponge Bob

eircomtribunal wrote:

sponge and thegills,
can we assume from both of you not answering the question what the MANs' actual loops of fibre underneath the small towns will be useful for, that you have no convincing response to that?

In the bigger towns yes. Galway and Cork can now compete for the we need 100Mbits type of large service sector investors that would locate no further west than Blanchardstown only a year or two back.

I cannot comment further for reasons of commercial sensitivity but know you can always PM me

Using masts for rural connectivity and partial private circuits for OLO's to connect their LLU equipment in eircom exchanges to the MAN's backhaul network is all very fine, will have significant positive consequences on the competitive situation – all agreed – ; but if the actual loops of fibre in the small towns are of no use, why not concentrate on the MANs' national backhaul, Mast and eircom-exchange connectivity?

By themselves they are useless (ish) , they won't be used to connect the school and the post office in Furbo and thats for sure but their being there focuses minds in Eircom

A complete MAN/ESB network to within 40km of every citizen is a clear and present danger....assuming eNet don't make a dogs dinner of everything. A statutory USO type framework for them is also required before they are contracted to run any further MAN systems.

Could it be that the construction of the overkill/useless small town fibre highway loops will simply go ahead because:
it is already planned,
it is already grant-agreed this way with the EC,
it is complicated, from a political and administrative point to make changes,

Yes to all of that but who else can build this kind of network if not government ?