Not exactly thought crime, but........

Freelancer

A HIGH-SCHOOL geography teacher in Colorado has been put on leave after a 16-year-old pupil recorded him comparing George Bush to Hitler.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2072905,00.html

Naturally fox leaped on the left wing teacher, who defended himself saying thus;

BENNISH: "I present alternative perpectives and I encourage kids to think critically and to develop their own ideas and to support their ideas with research and documentation. I never grade students based upon their political viewpoints. I only award points based upon your ability to write as a social scientist and a historian by supporting your particular viewpoints with documentation and evidence ..."

http://www.newshounds.us/2006/03/08/teacher_jay_bennish_fights_back_goes_to_nbc_not_fox.php


Possibly the most disturbing part of it is........

School teachers such as Mr Bennish who express left-wing views in the classroom are the latest group to face being recorded by their students. But unlike their counterparts in universities, it is conservative parents who are encouraging students to make recordings of their views.

The use of micro-recording devices, often built into mobile phones or digital music players, is the latest twist in conservatives’ struggle against what they see as the leftist slant of American education.

But a new “academic freedom movement” was launched three years ago by Mr Horowitz, a former scion of the New Left turned neo-conservative activist who heads the Centre for the Study of Popular Culture. The neo-conservative think-tank surveyed professors at more than 150 departments at 32 elite universities and found that Democrats outnumbered Republicans on campus by more than ten to one. Mr Horowitz is the author of a new book entitled: The Professors: The 101 Most Dangerous Academics in America, which has been criticised by some of its targets as a replay of Senator Joseph McCarthy’s anti-Communist witchunt of the 1950s, as portrayed in the Oscar-winning film Good Night, and Good Luck.

He is now campaigning for state legislatures to enact an “Academic Bill of Rights” to protect students from discrimination by professors for their political views.

I think there's two things about this, first this general trend in American to record and out teachers with "anti government" views, and encouraging students to rat them out, is profoundly disturbing, I believe it was covered in this forum before, but this seems to be the first instance of it occurring in high school, and it's a worrying development.

The second thing, is, considering the recent Irving case, can Europe really, look America in the eye and condemn this? There's massive differences, obviously, I mean holocaust denial is a crime in Austria, and many people here objected to Irving's sentence.

However the overall perception would be; us telling the US that it's wrong for the USA to suspend a teacher for comparing their leader to Hitler, while an EU country locks up a man with an unpalatable view of the holocaust.

Zombrex

Totally ridiculous, and also completely proving the teachers point ... its the problem with such a polarised political system like the 2 party system in America, you are either "with" half the population or basically trying to destroy the country.

My teachers in school used to go on little rants about everything, from travellers to the economy .. Imagine a teacher getting suspended in Ireland for for criticising Bertie

SteveS

I think there is a difference between encouraging discussion and using a position of authority to indoctrinate students into thinking a certain way. I listened to the entire recording of what he said and, while it might not be as bad as some Fox News commentators think, it didn't seem like he was really trying to encourage independent thinking or discussion.

I don't have a problem with high school teachers discussing controversial topics, but I do have a problem if they only present one side, don't allow opposing views, and punish students that disagree with them. I honestly don't know if he did the latter.

The use of micro-recording devices, often built into mobile phones or digital music players, is the latest twist in conservatives’ struggle against what they see as the leftist slant of American education.

There is definately a leftist slant in American public education. Even my lefty friends that teach will concede this point. Most are professional enough to not use their classroom as bully pulpit.

John_C

In East Germany teachers used to ask the pupils questions designed to out their parents if they had western sympathies. One question would be to ask the children where they would like to go on hollidays. If the answer was America then that would go on their parents file.

This situation isn't exactly analogous but it might be fair to compare the government in America to East Germany, if not Nazi Germany.

Freelancer

SteveS wrote:

I think there is a difference between encouraging discussion and using a position of authority to indoctrinate students into thinking a certain way. I listened to the entire recording of what he said and, while it might not be as bad as some Fox News commentators think, it didn't seem like he was really trying to encourage independent thinking or discussion.

Why did you come to that conclusion. While I admit comparing bush to hitler is a tad extreme theres an argument that he was just point out a completly different point of view then regularly seen in the mainstream media, it's hardly Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society. Its not as if a group of his students have backed up this one students complaint, in fact Sean Allen hasn't shown his face in school since.

Sean Allen, a 10th-grade student in Bennish's world geography class, recorded the comments on his MP3 player. They included Jay Bennish saying some of Bush's speech "sounds a lot like the things that Adolf Hitler used to say. We're the only ones who are right, everyone else is backwards and our job is to conquer the world and make sure that they all live just like we want them to."

Later in the recording, Bennish said he was not claiming Bush and Hitler were the same, "but there are some eerie similarities to the tones that they use."

I don't have a problem with high school teachers discussing controversial topics, but I do have a problem if they only present one side, don't allow opposing views, and punish students that disagree with them. I honestly don't know if he did the latter.

Again we have Bennish words on the matter;

"The main reason I say those racy or thought-provoking perspectives (is) I'm trying to provoke my students to go out there and decide for themselves," Jay Bennish told the Post. "I try to throw alternative perspectives out to students so they can (think) critically. I think the whole thing is reflective of a trend, an intolerance for anyone who would dare to speak with an opposing view ... This is not a good sign for a healthy democracy."

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060308/SCHOOLS/603080395/1026/METRO

There is definately a leftist slant in American public education. Even my lefty friends that teach will concede this point. Most are professional enough to not use their classroom as bully pulpit.

The liberals get the classrooms the Conservatives big business. Theres no evidence that Bennish was teaching Marxist propaganda, or training a group of young Sandistas....

SteveS

Later in the recording, Bennish said he was not claiming Bush and Hitler were the same, "but there are some eerie similarities to the tones that they use."

Fine, but let students draw their own conclusion. If you listen to the whole recording, it sounds more like he is preaching and less like he is teaching. If he wants students to look at similarities between Hitler and Bush, have them read or listen to speechs by both of them and look at any similarities.

I sincerely hope that this gets sorted out. This is turning into a big media circus and I'll be the first to admit that I probably don't have all the facts. If it turns out that this guy is an otherwise excellent teacher and is being treated unfairly, I hope he gets his job back. If it turns out that he is a lousy teacher and uses his class for spewing propaganda, then I don't feel sorry for him.

The liberals get the classrooms the Conservatives big business. Theres no evidence that Bennish was teaching Marxist propaganda, or training a group of young Sandistas....

True, I would like to see a little more balance in public education. If not balance, then more independent though and less propaganda. Unlike most of my conservative friends, I don't believe that public schools are "government indoctrination centers." My wife teaches and hasn't indoctrinated anyone. Despite this, there has been more of a movement towards schools presenting information that has nothing to do with math, science, literature, and history. In addition, American students seem to be pretty ignorant when compared to students from many other countries.

There has been a huge exodus from public schools over the last decade. Parents are choosing to send their kids to private schools or home-schooling them. I am not blaming Bennish for this, but rather pointing it out to show why public schools are under so much scrutiny.

The Corinthian

I do believe that minors are not in a position to fully and critically assess such topics, and as such it probably was inappropriate for the teacher in question to put forward his views as they would me very likely to be taken at face value by his students.

Given this suspension of said teacher was a bit extreme.

samb

The Corinthian wrote:

I do believe that minors are not in a position to fully and critically assess such topics, and as such it probably was inappropriate for the teacher in question to put forward his views as they would me very likely to be taken at face value by his students.
.

I think that 16year olds are not as stupid as you think and that therefore teachers should be able to discuss politics and make comparisons. A comparison like that will is very good in my view because it will stimulate thought. Instantly if you here ''Bush is like Hilter'' you will think it crazy. You will then think of the similarities and differences.

The Corinthian

samb wrote:

I think that 16year olds are not as stupid as you think and that therefore teachers should be able to discuss politics and make comparisons.

Naïve or simplistic would be more correct although in many cases the brain has not yet stopped growing in 16-year olds. Certainly some are more than capable of mature and rational analysis, but most are not.

Look at the above case. Even the child who records him is essentially doing little more than reflecting the views of his parents. Otherwise he would have challenged his teacher’s assertion.

samb

Well I agree that they haven't got entrenched views, which is a good thing. Shouldn't they be exposed to veiws that differ from thier parents? I was sixteen not too long ago (well less than a decade) and I think that I was capable of finding my way threw a minefield of ideas. I think it is healthy. I remember a teacher making racist jokes 'when we run out of fossil fuels we can burn the nig''ers'. We knew it was aweful. I don't think anyone was influenced towards racism.

Sand

I remember a teacher making racist jokes 'when we run out of fossil fuels we can burn the nig''ers'. We knew it was aweful. I don't think anyone was influenced towards racism.

Which teacher said this?

The Corinthian

samb wrote:

Well I agree that they haven't got entrenched views, which is a good thing.

I never suggested they have or have not got entrenched views, only their propensity for immature naiveté.

Shouldn't they be exposed to veiws that differ from thier parents?

That’s arguable, given their parents have a right to educate them as they see fit, and irrelevant to the point I made.

I was sixteen not too long ago (well less than a decade) and I think that I was capable of finding my way threw a minefield of ideas. I think it is healthy. I remember a teacher making racist jokes 'when we run out of fossil fuels we can burn the nig''ers'. We knew it was aweful. I don't think anyone was influenced towards racism.

Perhaps you were not, but you can hardly speak for all 16-year olds, can you? I’m hardly surprised your teacher did not turn you into a racist; I might accuse 16-year olds of naiveté but not of wholesale idiocy. So for your anecdote of where you know you were not influenced, you are forgetting all the other occasions when you were. After all, do you actually think people are born with an instinctive knowledge that stealing is wrong?

Your teacher was an obvious bigot and a ten year old could figure that one out. But what about a subtler teacher, who might want discuss some of the scientific differences between races?

Youth is impressionable, whether you like it or not. This is the reason that religions seek to administer schools, radical movements (both far left and right) are largely populated by under 25’s and formulaic boy bands actually sell records.

SeanW

My 3rd class teacher, when teaching us about the Holocaust told the class that "everyone hates Jews." I believed it for a short time (a few days) because I was really young, thus immature back then and didn't really know what that meant.

Teachers are in a really powerful formative position over very young children and should never push ideologies on them, but once you reach the age of reason, about 14 or so, then it becomes less clear.

samb

The Corinthian wrote:

Your teacher was an obvious bigot and a ten year old could figure that one out. But what about a subtler teacher, who might want discuss some of the scientific differences between races?
.

The points you make are good, my anecdote is not very apt.
Above is the crucial point I think. All adults and fellow pupils are going to exert subtle view-points and perspectives on a child. This is unavoidable. Therefore should we try to constantly restrain teachers or just allow them to be themeslves and voice their opinions, and at what aged pupils is any restraint desirable. I think children should learn question thier elders as early as possible and therefore should be allowed exposure to contraversy early. I will certainly encourage my daughter to question everything, once she can speak, and yes questioning daddy will have to be tolerated:)

samb

The Corinthian wrote:

Your teacher was an obvious bigot and a ten year old could figure that one out. But what about a subtler teacher, who might want discuss some of the scientific differences between races?
.

The points you make are good, my anecdote is not very apt.
Above is the crucial point I think. All adults and fellow pupils are going to exert subtle view-points and perspectives on a child. This is unavoidable. Therefore should we try to constantly restrain teachers or just allow them to be themeslves and voice their opinions, and at what aged pupils is any restraint desirable. I think children should learn question thier elders as early as possible and therefore should be allowed exposure to contraversy early. I will certainly encourage my daughter to question everything, once she can speak, and yes questioning daddy will have to be tolerated:)

Hobbes

SeanW wrote:

My 3rd class teacher, when teaching us about the Holocaust told the class that "everyone hates Jews."

If he was talking in relation to pre-WWII/WWII he would of been correct in that the there was a huge anti-Jewish sentiment around that time.

w66w66

The Corinthian wrote:

Your teacher was an obvious bigot and a ten year old could figure that one out. But what about a subtler teacher, who might want discuss some of the scientific differences between races?

Although the issue is heavily politicized, would it be acceptable for a biology teacher to discuss human bio diversity?

bonkey

Hobbes wrote:

If he was talking in relation to pre-WWII/WWII he would of been correct in that the there was a huge anti-Jewish sentiment around that time.

He would only be correct were someone to understand the word "everyone" to mean "a large number of people which does not even constitute a demonstrable majority".

Also, the use of the present tense 'hates' would suggest that the teacher was suffering from an inability to distinguish the present tense to the events which preceeded WW2.

I don't agree with the surreptitious recording of a teacher, especially in the name of freedom. I also wouldn't necessarily conclude based on this single recording that the teacher was unquestionably out of line.

One must recognise, however, that there are some teachers who shouldn't be allowed to teach and that all teachers (just as all people in all jobs) will sooner or later put their foot in it to some extent or anther. The question, for me, is how to deal with the problem and the approach that this kid (and his family) took is - for me - utterly wrong.

Ultimately though, I think the root problem here is that people are getting too carried away with the teaching responsibilities of a teacher. If you're that concerned about what a teacher is teaching your child, then ask your kid what they learned and discuss the subject further with then. Ensure they are aware that there are differing points of view on a subject. No-one is giving these teachers an unchallenged platform to "indoctrinate" kids except for parents who are willing to abdicate all educational responsibility to the school. Such people generally don't warrant my sympathy (although their children probably would regardless of the quality of the teachers).

jc

The_Minister

Teachers should never voice their political views in class. I am always frightened to think what rubbish Joe Higgins might have warped little kids with. Politics does not belong in the classroom.

Freelancer

Firespinner wrote:

Teachers should never voice their political views in class. I am always frightened to think what rubbish Joe Higgins might have warped little kids with. Politics does not belong in the classroom.

Come off it, where else are students going to learn and consider and develop a political philosophy?

SteveS

I am not overly familiar with the school system in Colorado, but if it is like the one in my state, it is entirely funded by local taxpayers. Do you think that teachers should be accountable on some level to their communities? I am not suggesting that they get approval for all their lectures, just some type of oversight.

Personally, I want my children to be exposed to a broad range of political ideologies, even wacko ones. This is the best way to learn how to intelligently debate your position. I would hope that any teacher that plans on discussing politics does so in as neutral of a way as possible and encourages and allows dissenting viewpoints. As someone that has been in school for many years, I can tell you that some (though not many) teachers and professors are not interested in hearing opposing viewpoints and you are better off telling them what they want to hear.

As for recording this teacher, I am not sure how I feel about that. I would be interested in finding out if students or parents made any other attempts to discuss any problems with the teacher. On the other hand, he is a public employee, paid with public funds. His job should be subject to public scrutiny.

No matter what happens, Bennish is probably set for life. He has hired that same lawyer that represented Ward Churchill and is currently making the talk-show circuit. I am sure he will probably quit teaching and milk his pseudo-celebrity status for all it is worth.