$200 FO Hand

Hectorjelly

This is the only hand in the tournament I feel I misplayed. Villain is loose, but a little cautious. I have been stealing his blinds constantly, but other than that we have played no hands tother.

From memory, so these amounts wont be
4 Handed. I have 40k he has 25k, other 2 stacks have less than 20k. Blinds 1k 2k.

He limps (which is unusual, but not that unusual). Sb folds. I have J2o on bb and check. The flop is 66j. Whats my plan for the hand. If I check he will bet the flop no matter what he holds.

cardshark202

Is villian in EP? I'd be inclined to check-call this flop and lead the turn (say half pot?). If villian is still interested then you're probably finished with this hand. If villian is cautious as you say then he'll probably want to play a small pot with a jack and an overpair if you take this line. Only problem with this line is he will probably fold a hand like 77-TT. If villian checks behind you on the flop, I would again half-pot a blank turn.

Another possibility is to check-call the flop and check the turn. If villian checks behind you can lead on a blank river or maybe check and give him a chance to bluff at the pot. If villian bets this turn you have a tough decision which will probably mean fold.

fuzzbox

Check.call 3 streets baby

RoundTower

I think you should check call and bet any turn. I don't like the idea of check calling three streets: just because he will bet the flop automatically doesn't mean he will bet the turn with hands we beat.

Culchie

tbh, I'm betting out here with a 4K bet and try and see where we stand here.

If he's as cautious as you say, he won't like getting tangled up with CL at this stage without a hand.

I'd rather this approach than check calling, especially as it appears your suspicions have been aroused by his limp preflop. If he folds well and good. If he calls, well you have more info than you would have by simply calling his flop bet. I'd try and take the initiative with this hand.

Gholimoli

If you bet the flop he will call you with any J any over pair and obviously a 6.
The only good thing IMO betting out would achieve is him folding over cards. this is more likely to happen if the pot was multiway as the person acting after you may fold over cards as he is not capping the action. its much less likely HU though.
Also you will have check/fold to a bet if an over pair appears on the turn or else try to represent the 6 but I don’t think there is any need for that.
If you check/call his bet your not in bad shape.
I don’t agree how ever with check calling blind on all three streets. Yes providing no card higher than J it may be a safe play depending on the bet sizes.

Culchie

Gholimoli wrote:

If you bet the flop he will call you with any J any over pair and obviously a 6.
The only good thing IMO betting out would achieve is him folding over cards. this is more likely to happen if the pot was multiway as the person acting after you may fold over cards as he is not capping the action. its much less likely HU though.
Also you will have check/fold to a bet if an over pair appears on the turn or else try to represent the 6 but I don’t think there is any need for that.
If you check/call his bet your not in bad shape.
I don’t agree how ever with check calling blind on all three streets. Yes providing no card higher than J it may be a safe play depending on the bet sizes.

hmm ... don't agree.

You check, he bets, you call ... now we have a 10K pot and learned nothing.

You bet, he may call, he may fold. If he does call, same amount of chips in the centre, hand is alot better defined as far as I'm concerned now.

Gholimoli

Culchie wrote:

hmm ... don't agree.

You check, he bets, you call ... now we have a 10K pot and learned nothing.

You bet, he may call, he may fold. If he does call, same amount of chips in the centre, hand is alot better defined as far as I'm concerned now.

You bet he raises .what would you do?
What have you learned?

fuzzbox

Culchie wrote:

hmm ... don't agree.

You check, he bets, you call ... now we have a 10K pot and learned nothing.

You bet, he may call, he may fold. If he does call, same amount of chips in the centre, hand is alot better defined as far as I'm concerned now.

If you bet and he calls - you have learned nothing, and missed out on bluff money (although he could easily call here planning to bluff the turn).
If you bet and he raises - you might fold the best hand

Betting is bad - if he will bet with anything. Check and call.

You can check.call flop and lead the turn
Or check.call flop, check call turn and lead river
or check.call all three streets
Or just lead now and hope for the best.

ho hum

Or check.fold if you like
its all good

cardshark202

Culchie wrote:

hmm ... don't agree.

You check, he bets, you call ... now we have a 10K pot and learned nothing.

You bet, he may call, he may fold. If he does call, same amount of chips in the centre, hand is alot better defined as far as I'm concerned now.

There are some problems here. You bet he calls. What line do we take on the turn? If you bet he we almost always only call with a hand that beats us. If we check he will bet with a wide range of hands, many of which we beat. Now we can call safe in the knowledge that we've allowed the villian to put some money in the pot when he may be behind. If we then lead the turn we will almost certainly only get action from a hand that beats us but we now have a pot worth making a play for and we have represented a very strong hand taking this line.

Daithio

I think the best option is a check raise. He's not going to go over the top of that with a bluff, it would be risking all of his chips. If he does then you can be pretty certain he has J2 beaten. I think it's the cheapest way to find out where you stand, as a bet out could easily be re raised by him with any 2, and then you really don't know where you stand. I don't like check calling the whole way down, you don't have that strong a hand, and it could get expensive if he has a better jack, an over pair or a six. What's very important here though is the amount he normally bets out at pots. If he puts in small feeler bets then the check raise is optimal. If his bets are bigger than that then I think maybe check calling and betting any turn as roundtower suggests is a good play. That always looks quite strong. You don't really want to be putting more than 12k of your stack in here though imo.

Norwich Fan Rob

i would never lead at this, but i dont like the check call hugely either.
The best action here i think is to check raise, if he then moves in, well, its a cheap lesson, but this wins the pot most of the time.
He will usually fire at this if u check, so let him, then tell him u have a hand.

a-k-47

check raise

a-k-47

sorry didnt read down as far as rob, i think this is the best option of play here..if villain re raises hes prob got jq,jk,ja so ur screwed....better to loose a small pot than a bigger one on the river.

Hectorjelly

So I check to him, he bets 4k and Im supposed to raise him to 10k and not put another chip in the pot if he calls? I think this is an expensive way to find out if im good. I think if I just lead for 4k I can assume my hand is no good if he calls/raises. (unless its ghomoli in disguise) If he has a pocket pair lower than a Jack im sure he will be willing to check it down.

The line I took is so bad Im not going to mention it. Looking back if id played this hand better I would of won.

Daithio

It's not just Gholimoli that would raise you if you bet out there, I think it looks really weak, I'd raise that bet with almost any two. It looks like an 'I know you're going to bet with any two, so I'm going to bet with any two first' raise. You're definitely not leading 4 handed with the 6 there, and even if you would he's not going to believe that you would.

I think you want to be the one getting the re raise in, not him. It's not exactly a draw heavy board, so if he does call your check raise then just give up the hand, you know you're beaten. It could very well be checked down to the river if he does call the check raise, if has a better jack or an overpair he probably doesn't want to risk value betting just in case you do have the 6.

Leading out is the worst option I think. If he raises, you have to fold, and he could do that with any two, in fact I think he probably should do that with any two. If he flat calls your lead wtf do you do on the turn? Especially if an overcard comes. Lead, then get re raised, then fold. Check, then call his bet? Horrible situation whatever you do.

Culchie

Hectorjelly wrote:

So I check to him, he bets 4k and Im supposed to raise him to 10k and not put another chip in the pot if he calls? I think this is an expensive way to find out if im good. I think if I just lead for 4k I can assume my hand is no good if he calls/raises. (unless its ghomoli in disguise) If he has a pocket pair lower than a Jack im sure he will be willing to check it down.

The line I took is so bad Im not going to mention it. Looking back if id played this hand better I would of won.

I must be learning I like this approach as well.

Daithio

Also I think it should be against the rules of the forum to post hands and not give the outcome;) .

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

So I check to him, he bets 4k and Im supposed to raise him to 10k and not put another chip in the pot if he calls? I think this is an expensive way to find out if im good. I think if I just lead for 4k I can assume my hand is no good if he calls/raises. (unless its ghomoli in disguise) If he has a pocket pair lower than a Jack im sure he will be willing to check it down.

I still think you're losing out on the 4k that he would have put in the pot possibly drawing dead if you just check. I think this is more important than "finding out where you are in the hand". Yes it would be nice to know where you are in the hand, but at the point where you check and he bets you can be confident you're ahead most of the time.

Hectorjelly

Dathio - Remember though Im not playing this hand against you, and if I was I could lead the flop there because you know I might have a 6. I dont think this guys is likely to bluff me. He had limped with KK and I ended up all in (check call flop, checkraise turn all in). I had no idea if I had the best hand or not on the turn but I thought he might fold fearing a 6/I might actually have the best hand/im an idiot

Daithio

That's pretty horrible play alright . I still think check raising the flop is the best option though if you know that he'll bet it. For a couple of reasons; one of them is you find out you're behind alot cheaper than most other methods, and also if you're ahead you're getting some extra chips off him. Of course leading the flop will be cheaper but the odds are you are ahead and you want that extra bet off him. Also he's never going to bluff on a third raise, and if he is fair play to him, but there's a chance he'll try to push you off the flop if you just lead out.

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont think this guys is likely to bluff me.

Hectorjelly wrote:

If I check he will bet the flop no matter what he holds.

This confuses me, one of these has to be not quite true. I thought a lot of the time you were getting some free money from 79o when he bet the flop and the turn.

If you still think he would overplay a complete bluff here then I don't see what's wrong with how you played it. You would have taken 10k off him much more often than you go broke. But if it's unlikely he's bluffing on the turn then you have to check fold.

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

This confuses me, one of these has to be not quite true. I thought a lot of the time you were getting some free money from 79o when he bet the flop and the turn.

I meant I dont think he is likely to bluff raise me if I lead, but he will bet if checked to

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

Dathio - Remember though Im not playing this hand against you, and if I was I could lead the flop there because you know I might have a 6. I dont think this guys is likely to bluff me. He had limped with KK and I ended up all in (check call flop, checkraise turn all in). I had no idea if I had the best hand or not on the turn but I thought he might fold fearing a 6/I might actually have the best hand/im an idiot

Ohhhhh yuck.

.

Beware the EP limper .... always beware the EP limper.

Way to lose the most when behind

Culchie

Well I think he was aware of the early limper, he mentioned it in his OP how it had tweaked the radar senses.

I like the lead out bet. Yes there is possibility of reraise with any two cards, but description of 'cautious villan' suggests any reraise will be a genuine hand.

If Villan has any mid pair the likelihood with the two CL's clashing, none of them want to go bust, and can't put each other on a hand, is that they will check it down. Even a high pair has to be a little cautious with the paired board.

Other possibility is he will fold.

Any of these 3 are good for me, and cheapest way to get out of this yukky spot.

If I get reraised, I'll drop the hand, so what if I'm ahead and don't know it. Take the very minor hit and move on.


This isn't a hand to be messing with.

ianmc38

If i was the villain I would raise a bet here with any two. If we're leading and folding to a raise, we may as well muck on the flop. Check-raise is my prefererred line here.

Culchie

ianmc38 wrote:

If i was the villain I would raise a bet here with any two. If we're leading and folding to a raise, we may as well muck on the flop. Check-raise is my prefererred line here.

I probably would as well, but we're not the villain. Villain has been described by HJ ... that's what we've got to work with.

Looks like it's an 'agree to disagree' one