Should Self Defence teachers be liable for teaching rubbish?

columok

Something myself and others have talked about before...

Should martial arts teachers who teach self defence courses or teach martial arts for self defence and recommend inadvisable things on the "street" be liable. Should a self defence teacher have to validate their claims.

Eg. Should Larry Tatum be brought to court for teaching rubbish self defence?

Love to hear people's thoughts

Baggio...

Hey All

Interesting point, but can't see it happening alas. As you can all tell I'm no fan of Tatum, as with most of the other “self-promoted Grandmasters”. Who are too interested in aesthetics rather than reality. Most of these people are victims of their own self delusions. As with most other Traditional Mar. Artists they have seen no real action (not all... But most), and just take their "Masters" word for how it actually is. That's why most of those guys dismiss the work of people like Geoff Thompson - they just can't accept that they have been learning the wrong stuff for years. Or not actually preparing for the type of opponent their students will be up against - generally a pretty tough street thug, that has had no formal training per se, but has been in loads of scraps and is pretty darn tough. I was a victim of it myself for many years, I trained in various styles and simply accepted the word of my teachers. Until the day I got into a few encounters while I was working on the door, my MA was not working. I got talking to a lot of the other doormen and they virtually all trained in Boxing. Then I heard about people like Geoff and Lee Morrison - and I never looked back.

I guess my point is - that most people accept that if you are a black belt in whatever style you are near invincible. How wrong we all were. People will accept a black belts word for self-defence because they can do some fancy moves or sound very confident “in theory”. Guess we just watched too many Hong Kong movies as we grew up.

How would you hold these guys liable, I guess you can't. It's really up to the
student to start analysing what he/she is being tought, and if they think it's not going to work in real life get out and to another Dojo. Maybe we as students should take responsibility to make sure the people, who actually do the training are really up to the job. In my opinion it is very important that if you are teaching people to defend themselves in what could possibly a life threatening situation, that you should be on the cutting edge of RBSD, and you have a personal responsibility to make sure your students know how it really is out on the street.

Just my take, Cheers Baggio.

dlofnep

Yes, they should. If they are not realistically teaching how to defend, then they are a scam. A scam in any field is a scam.

Baggio...

I'd agree, a scam is a scam, even if it's a well intentioned one.

One thing though.... Who decides what material is the best material to teach for RBSD? I mean, I have my idea of what's the best way, but you other guys might think that I was way off the mark, or just talking crap (you probably are anyway:D ). So how can we hold the wrong doers liable if we all have different views on the subject, any ideas??

Later,

Bagg.

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Something myself and others have talked about before...

Should martial arts teachers who teach self defence courses or teach martial arts for self defence and recommend inadvisable things on the "street" be liable. Should a self defence teacher have to validate their claims.

Eg. Should Larry Tatum be brought to court for teaching rubbish self defence?

Love to hear people's thoughts

If more people think that Coke tastes better than Pepsi then should Pepsi come off the market??

It's a good question Colum, but there is not much that can be done about such things unless someone gets injured or killed trying to use these skills learnt at a class or seminar! (maybe even video??)

Then could the instructor be liable for the persons injuries??

Colm_OReilly

If more people think that Coke tastes better than Pepsi then should Pepsi come off the market??

Mmm, if a drug is ineffective or indeed harmful to people it is taken off the market. If people prefer one brand of cola to another? What is your point here?

It would be great if it was like that, but I imagine the legalities of it would be prohibitively difficult.

Naos

pma-ire wrote:

It's a good question Colum, but there is not much that can be done about such things unless someone gets injured or killed trying to use these skills learnt at a class or seminar! (maybe even video??)

Then could the instructor be liable for the persons injuries??

Instructor would just claim that the student froze up/did not interpret skills thought correctly/other excuse.

Be very difficult to prove. It would be great if Masters had to participate in a MMA style event/showcase their styles in front of others at a national TMA/MMA convention..

Quick Hijack: What tode RBSD mean again? Cannot recall..

MaxBax

let the buyer be ware when it comes to services like this.

Millionaire

I think its very difficult to prove.

when I did WTF TKD at university, it was pure olympic sport Taek Kwon Do (very tough hard training, and full contact kicking but still a sport, no one could punch even). We asked the insturctor to teach us self defence, and all he said was "you know how to kick, put a kick somewhere), so most of the class though great, a jump spining back kick will work on the street, because Master Oh Jang said so!! BS BS BS BS....I joined the boxing club after that!

I noticed myself teching SD , blokes, say an Army guy whose in dong physical things in training and has the attitude, usually picks up stuff real fast and can use it. But if you have some bloke or girl who never did anything physical, your showing them week after week how to do a knee strike, and they do not get it. some people will never get it. So what do you do????

I came up with 2 solutions, not sure now right they are...

1. Do not teach, nor promise guarantee SD skills in a few weeks. Instead dedicate yourself to your own training, train hard, and follow the path of self mastery, and train some more. and become outstanding yourself.

2. If you do teach. Only accept students who can and will learn. Thats means real hard hard training, for example I would still teach all the RBSD that I believe in, and I would make everyone train real hard in Thai, and boxing which compliments the SD stuff. A few hard sessions would sort the men form the boys.

In fact Geoff Thompson for example, he does not teach Easy in 3 nice steps SD in a few weeks. All his training, involved heavy boxing, Thai, sparring, wrestling, RBSD drills, check out his Vids.
Now thats the way RBSD should be taught.

You may not make much money teaching that way, but at least you will know you have prepared your students in the best way possible and that they will know their stuff.

Roper

Welcome to the free market...

Baggio...

If it sounds too good to be true - then it probably is.

In my opinion it takes years to be decent at whatever art you are into. Yeah, you can learn some stuff in a 12 week course - wont mean you will be able to apply it under real pressure, if the time comes.

Most of these short courses just sound like easy money to me....

PS - Larry Tatum should be taken to court just for that tash alone.

Dragan

columok wrote:

Something myself and others have talked about before...

Should martial arts teachers who teach self defence courses or teach martial arts for self defence and recommend inadvisable things on the "street" be liable. Should a self defence teacher have to validate their claims.

Eg. Should Larry Tatum be brought to court for teaching rubbish self defence?

Love to hear people's thoughts

Should the same question be applied to MMA and TMA trainers who would give students a false sense of security about there ability to defend themselves???

columok

Should the same question be applied to MMA and TMA trainers who would give students a false sense of security about there ability to defend themselves???

Absolutely.

I guess this isn't about could but it's more about should. I think teachers who teach things for "self defence" that are rubbish should be taken to court and put out of business. I don't think this issue is as light as other things. This is wrongly empowering people to get into fights or even doing something stupid in self defence situation.

Few MMA training method teachers teach anything to do with self defence. So really its more the combatatives and TMA training method arts that generally teach self defence.

Anyone who teaches a knife defence course that would get the defender more hurt should be locked up.

Proviso: This would be legally impossible to prove. Who would validate/regulate?

So essentially it becomes let the buyer beware.

dunkamania

Pointless really,because the legal defence will always be
"The student failed to apply the techniques correctly" or
"It would have been alot worse without the RBSD training"

Valmont

Can anyone enlighten me on who Larry Tatum is? And what is RBSD?

I did traditional Karate and Hapkido for three years. It is a scam. No matter how cool the moves look or sound, they just aren't practical, at all.
It is a big scam, the whole thing. If you want be safe on the streets take boxing or kickboxing classes, or wrestling or MMA.

A case trying to make the Grandmaster responsible for teaching rubbish wouldn't hold up in court, theres to many holes.

Millionaire

I think Larry Tatum is some American Kenpo Master with 6 million black belts, and a big stupid looking mustache!!!

MaeveD

I was in the US for a course a few years ago and met a girl who was presented with a black belt in some kicking system after doing a weekend course?

My view is that everyone should be able to learn some form of self defence, but for me it has to be for everyone not just the fit and strong. Find one or two non specific techniques that will work best for you and practice them.

Knife techniques.. Use one technique that works for you to try and stop yourself from being stabbed, you will most likely survive cuts.

If an attacker really has their mind set to kill you... I'd say they probably will.

dunkamania

Valmont wrote:

And what is RBSD?

I think its reality based self defence,I am open too corrections on this.

Roper

MaeveD wrote:

My view is that everyone should be able to learn some form of self defence, but for me it has to be for everyone not just the fit and strong. Find one or two non specific techniques that will work best for you and practice them.

Maeve,
I agree with you there but I would alter that in one very significant way. I don't think "techniques" are the answer at all without some system in which to aplly them. If I were to teach someone an armbar on Friday night, and got them to drill and drill and drill it until it was 2nd nature, it would still be absolutely useless to them without the fundamentals of BJJ (which I'm sadly lacking in myself by the way;) ) movement, timing, position. Hence why short courses don't work.

I think there's a real misinterpretation of MMA and arts like Boxing, Thai etc. that they are just for the "fit and the strong". I don't agree, I think that they are the reason that "the fit and the strong" exist though. Most people don't walk into a gym as a super athlete and then learn Thai etc. they mostly walk in as skinny kids or tubby adults;) and THEN become fit and strong with a good delivery system.

Now I think anyone, I mean anyone, with the right frame of mind, good coaching and a willingness to work hard can do this. Be they a man or a woman, 16 or 60.

Millionaire

Re what Roper says on BJJ fundamentals...

I 've been throwing punches (Kickboxing) on and off for 20 years.

Daily I am working the heavy bag. and I look in the mirror, somedays and I think... my punches are bad. and some days they are bad...maybe I am having an off day etc.

I think Mastery is life long. you never stop learning.

I read over here of some old Thai master in South Thailand (they have a slightly different style down there) and he said he is 70 years old, been training since 6, and he realises he still has to learn!!!!

Thats says it all to me.

Dave Joyce

Good question Colum and some interesting replies. Firstly, I have to say that I sometimes teach a Self Protection Course over an eight week period for about an hour and a half. Looking back over the people I have had enroll on these courses (over about a 20 year period) the vast majority of them didn't do any MA's, would not have turned up again if I did what I would really have liked to (much as you said Gerry, awareness etc backed up by hard physical training) and some were previous victims of assault who were looking for some kind of edge. Its only then I realised much as Maeve said that everyone should be able to learn some form of self defence/protection and we as instructors have to find ways of getting the basic message across and giving people some basic skills at first. Where they want to take it from there is their option. What I teach in these courses would be about 70% physical and the rest, lecture on awareness, recognising potential attackers/imminent signs of attack and scenario based training. HOWEVER, I always emphasise to participants that what we do is very much just an introduction and they need to back it up by taking up a back-up/support system on board, no matter what they choose to do its VITAL to what we've already shown them.

I teach a Thai class in NUIG and did a little bit of street orientated stuff one night (they requested it) with the class. I had spent a good few minutes explaining that you don't want to fight on the street because a) it can give you a record (very important point for most students) if the cops come along and catch you fighting on the street, b) by fighting as opposed to the hit and GTFOT tactics, you run the risk of friends coming on the scene or weapons been introduced, so after all this I figured I had qualified the following statement that if you absolutely, positively have to fight, make sure you hit first, fast, hard etc. Well this woman comes up afterwards and tells me that (because!!???) her instructor told her and she agreed that you should NEVER hit first and blah, blah, blah. I explained I respected their position but in the real world, when confronted by a more experienced scumbag and you hesitate you WILL end up dogmeat but I was just wasting my time.

The second thing I have seen when teaching up there (in another class) is the most FUC*%£" ridiculous crap been passed off as knife defences to students, so much so that I was totally distracted from what I was supposed to be doing. This **** would get people seriously messed up on the street.

Anyone who teaches a knife defence course that would get the defender more hurt should be locked up.

Absolutely gotta agree Colum

Knife techniques.. Use one technique that works for you to try and stop yourself from being stabbed, you will most likely survive cuts.

Whoa, gotta say Maeve, I definately think this is very dangerous thinking and not very sensible advice!!!

Millionaire

I hate to say this and probably will get flack for this..

If you are attacked on the street, usually the attacker is not a virgin at attacking or fighting. they have done it beofore ,and they picked on you because they have observed you and feel they can beat you. (for your money, for ego, what ever)

Now if some boozed up, coked up, street thug attacks you, to survive you are going to have to be more fericous, faster and more furious that him. its as simple as that. I know I;ve been there.

Its not a nice place to be, nor a mentality to have, but if no choice its the only answer to win a physical fight.

Now thats real hard to teach to some one, say an accountant who hardest physical experience to date, is the monday night game of squash, or the thursday night indoor soccer with the lads.

The only way to learn this, is to get in an spar hard, a few hard spars with someone better, and a bit of pain, the mentality will soon develop.

MaeveD

Dave, I'll expand a little on what I mean about the edged weapon defence

Under no circumstances would I recommend that someone engage in a physical confrontation with a knife or edged weapon. The best thing to do is to run away. We teach one defence to give people one option, rather than just stand there and be killed.

I'm talking about a last resort technique when you have absolutely no other choice but to defend yourself from being stabbed.

You can survive cuts. If you sever arteries you're in big trouble, but you have time to be treated. Stabbed in a major organs, you're most likely dead.

columok

Maeve,

If you're going to teach a knife defence the theme of the thread so far is "you'd better be damn sure that it a) does the job and b) doesn't land the person in more trouble".

So with your views against sparring validation how do you know that the knife defence you teach works? and not only for you but for people without much training or without the desire to keep on training.

Dave,

Have heard the strike first strike true thing a good bit recently. So the point is just work on a fast strong one/two?

Colum

pcwares

Hi,

I have no martial art training first off.

Did a 10 week course doing Krav Maga.

The Before and After

--> Before i would never have hit first but done the traditional queensbury rule type stuff.

--> After, I have 5 things that will give me enough time to scarper i believe. They are simple things and I practice them at home.

1. Defensive posture - ready mode - (non confrontational but ready)
2. Palm
3. Elbow
4. Confidence to defend myself only/how to fool the camera
5. Frontal, headlock, grabbed from behind, side attacks (no weapons)

It has given me a taste of something i know fk all about. So i'll be enrolling in some striking orientated martial art, which has some sparing as this 'hitting fresh air type activity' seems to be a waste of time as I feel its the best course of action for the big dirty jackeen lubain brawler trying to take my country head clean off.

Colm.

Baggio...

As long as u practice those moves as often as possible - then you will increase your chance of survival in a street fight. Some people go on such courses, learn a few moves and never actaully practice them again, but still think they will use them when the time comes.

Good luck, Baggio.

Quillo

Instructors should also advise students on the possible legal consequences of leathal response. I've been at seminars and trained with instructors where it is common place to disarm an attacker and then "finish him off"....an approach that's fine in a military context but that's quite likely to to result in legal problems in civil life.

I know there's the old gung-ho "its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" mentality out there and that, untimately, there is merit in this approach. But an awareness of legal consequence is still essential. If you have removed the threat you have no right in law to follow up !

Degsy

Teaching unarmed knife defence is crazy imho.You can practice fancy moves in the gym till the cows come home but most people will completely lose thier composure and forget thier training once they see blood spilled for real.If somebody attacks you with a knife the best thing to do is either arm yourself with something that'll give you a fighting chance or run for your life.

Baggio...

Degsy is right.

There are a few knife principles one really needs to know. Best off run like hell, grab an improv weapon, otherwise hand over your wallet real quick. If you are cornered and have no choice but to fight, well give it your best shot. Although you chances are not too good against a really commited atacker. And if he's trained - it's goodnight.

Most fancy TMA techniques don't account for the retraction of the blade. No attacker is just going to leave the blade out so you can pull some fancy manipulation move. Poeple who teach these moves to their students, are living in Atlantis or Middle Earth.

Bob Kasper is the best I've seen, when it comes to knives.

Cheers,

Baggio.

Millionaire

The knife defence I know worked for me in a live multiple attacker situation.

The attacker had a broken bottle, and slashed for me face, I consider this attack not much different than a knife attack. and I was scared. Also I had taken a sucker punch straight in the eye, before Mr Bottle Slasher attacked, so I could only see out of 1 eye.

as I said on here before, if it was not for the Knife defence, I would be blind today or badly cut.

I had not choice, and as Baggio says I "gave it my best shot"

Quillo

Unarmed vs knife is always a risky proposition, no matter how good you (think) you are. Knives are fast and hard to follow, particular at night. U vs K should be avoided by all means where possible.

Where avoidance is not possible......
Options are few....and depend a lot on how you have prepared.

Learn to make use of anything you can as a shield or weapon - and train this way in class.

Focus your training on a few simple techniques that you can hopefully use reflexively when your fine motors skills are lost in the presence of adrenaline dump.

Critically analyse any techniques your are being taught. If you can't make them work without a lot of cooperation from you "attacker" in class, how are they ever going to work on the street.

Read extensively on situational awareness and conflict avoidance to try and avoid these situations in the first place. Study also about the psychological and physiological effects of life-and-death situational stress so you're not shocked in immobility by phenomena like tachypsychia.

Work with knifes. Understand how they are used. How the are concealed and deployed from street clothes. Work with different sizes and styles - what may work against a small single edged blade may get you shredded against a larger double edged weapon.

Train hard and hope you never have to find out if it really works !

Degsy

Learn to use improvised weapons as well,take your belt off and hold the buckle end in your hand,flick the other end out at the attacker's face and control the action with your other hand.Pick up a bottle,a brick,the branch off atree ANYTHING that can be used as a weapon.Spit in the person's eyes to distract them while you run,throw your coins into thier face,jab your cigarette out in thier eye but DONT start waving your hands around stephen seagal style,you'll get cut to ribbons and if you start to bleed your bottle will go and with it your training.

Roper

I love this topic. It's turning into Sean Connery in the Untouchables.

He brings a knife, you bring a gun. He puts one of yours in the hospital, you put one of his in the morgue! That's the Chicago way!

We've had the training for knife debate before regarding mindset, so everyone knows my opinion. But I'll say this, when it comes to edged weapons, there's only one thing worse than training with an unhealthy mindset and that's training bullsh1t techniques with an unhealthy mindset. If you're teaching knife defence, you'd better have pressure tested it. Be that with a magic marker or a dead blade. I've seen some terrible bullsh1t passed as knife defence. I'd laugh at it if it weren't so serious.

Anecdote warning!
I used to train in a place where, on occasion, the instructor would get an empty plastic bottle. This was the 'knife'. Then we'd do, for example, a defence against a downward stabbing motion a la Norman Bates. The defence was a traditional rising block followed by a contrived arm lock. Now you might read that and say 'that would get you killed'. But you know what, it actually wouldn't, because if you handed Joe Soap a knife tommorow and told him to attack someone, he might just do that Norma Bates stab, but let Joe Soap think about it for a while and he'll come up with a far better way, probably slashing. So the rising block wouldn't get you killed cos you'd never get to do it.

It's funny because nobody in that class ever got stabbed. But that's the sort of thing that's out there.

loz

MaeveD wrote:

We teach one defence to give people one option, rather than just stand there and be killed.

can you expand on this ? - love to see pics - video of this one option.

If you sever arteries you're in big trouble, but you have time to be treated.

Ever see an arterial bleed ? ( i have - 8 foot fountain from the thigh ) - time is low minutes for survival unless know how first aid is applied such as pressure on carotid ( leg ) or brachial ( arm ) arteries.

Most people wouln't have FA training and know how to do this properly - and I cant imagine ambulance arrival times at Temble Bar are very fast are they ?


Best knife defence is sprinting........

Degsy

Blocking is Bolxxks as the saying goes.Avoid the blow or strike first if its for real.Anybody who's ever wielded a knife lets just say in mountjoy for example,wouldnt do the downward norman bate stabbing motion unless the victim had a)thier back turned or b) was lying down.An attacker with a knife will shove the blade hard up against your neck if he's trying to mug you or will usuallymake short,darting or long sweeping slashes if he's out to hurt you.In the latter if he catches you with a swip you're going to probabloy freeze making you ripe to be carved up.

Roper

You been in a few knife fights Degsy?

Quillo

Some light reading from the ever useful Paladin Press:
(Short reviews are my own - also on www.hapkido.ie)

Bowie and Big-Knife Fighting System
Dwight C. McLemore
Published by Paladin Press
ISBN 1-58160-389-4
A work or art, literally. Beautifully illustrated by hand, this book takes the form used by fencing manuals to show the use of big knives in conflict. Probably of limited practical use (unless you go around carrying a 13" Bowie !) but informative nonetheless.

Sevillian Steel : The Traditional Knife-Fighting Arts Of Spain
James Loriega
Published by Paladin Press
An interesting introduction to the Spanish system of knife fighting using the Navaja, the traditional large folding knife of the region.

Knife Fighting : A Practical Course
Michael Janich
Published by Paladin Press
A comprehensive approach to knife fighting and defence. Some questionable advice on fighting grips....but that's very much a matter of opinion. Well worth a read. See also Janich's Martial Blade Craft website and his collaborative work with knife manufacturer Spyderco, the Ronin.

Master Of The Blade : Secrets Of The Deadly Art Of Knife Fighting
Richard Ryan
Published by Paladin Press
Another comprehensive knife fighting manual. Perhaps better laid out than Mr. Janich's work above and easier to work through. Thoroughly recommended.

Knives, Knife Fighting, And Related Hassles : How To Survive A Real Knife Fight
Marc "Animal" MacYoung
Published by Paladin Press
Mr. MacYoung has a decidedly down and dirty approach to knife fighting. A very entertaining and informative book. See also the author's website www.nononsenseselfdefense.com.

The Logic of Steel - A fighter's view of blade and shank encounters
James LaFond
Published by Paladin Press
ISBN 1-58160-130-1
An excellent analysis of eye-witness accounts describing various blade encounters. Dispels a lot of myths !.

Degsy

Roper wrote:

You been in a few knife fights Degsy?

I've seen knives used for real...its not nice

Dave Joyce

The only way to learn this, is to get in an spar hard, a few hard spars with someone better, and a bit of pain, the mentality will soon develop.

Agreed Gerry, but a lot of these people would be so imtimidated by that kind of training they just wouldn't take part. Now I leave them under NO ILLUSION of the type of violence that they (PLEASE NOTE) COULD be exposed to and what I'm working towards with them is that after doing this INTRODUCTORY course they back it up with regular training in any martial art. If they like striking we recommend Thai/boxing and if they prefer not to strike then BJJ/Judo.

Have heard the strike first strike true thing a good bit recently. So the point is just work on a fast strong one/two?

Pretty much Colum, but as Gerry has mentioned a few times using your "Fence" (keeping them at arms lenght with your weaker arm in a non threatening posture, engaging them a little, verbally also) and in essence setting them up for a very fast hard cross/hook on the point of the chin/jawline particularly while they're talking AT you. Just to point out to some of the other posters, I continually stress the legal ramifications of what they are learning and point out try to avoid the situations if at all possible, BUT when you can't....

Maeve, although I can see where you're coming from, I have to agree with Colum, and although I train in Sayoc Kali (and they're acknowledged as one of the leading bladed systems nowadays), I NEVER train any edged weapon stuff with people on these courses and tell them that they have three choices, a) accquiesse, NO MATTER what the situation and geniunely suffer the consequences/aftermath, b) carry an improvised (LEGAL) weapon all of the time or c) study indepth a bladed system.

Ever see an arterial bleed ? ( i have - 8 foot fountain from the thigh ) - time is low minutes for survival unless know how first aid is applied such as pressure on carotid ( leg ) or brachial ( arm ) arteries.

I presume you mean femoral Loz, and most first aid won't help a femoral wound, only surgery (as in the movie Black Hawk Down when the guy had a fermoral cut).

Quillo, some interesting points, hope you don't mind me asking where/who do you train with??

Degsy, why would you hold the BUCKLE in your hand???

Degsy

Dave Joyce wrote:

Agreed Gerry, but a lot of these people would be so imtimidated by that kind of training they just wouldn't take part. Now I leave them under NO ILLUSION of the type of violence that they (PLEASE NOTE) COULD be exposed to and what I'm working towards with them is that after doing this INTRODUCTORY course they back it up with regular training in any martial art. If they like striking we recommend Thai/boxing and if they prefer not to strike then BJJ/Judo.



Pretty much Colum, but as Gerry has mentioned a few times using your "Fence" (keeping them at arms lenght with your weaker arm in a non threatening posture, engaging them a little, verbally also) and in essence setting them up for a very fast hard cross/hook on the point of the chin/jawline particularly while they're talking AT you. Just to point out to some of the other posters, I continually stress the legal ramifications of what they are learning and point out try to avoid the situations if at all possible, BUT when you can't....

Maeve, although I can see where you're coming from, I have to agree with Colum, and although I train in Sayoc Kali (and they're acknowledged as one of the leading bladed systems nowadays), I NEVER train any edged weapon stuff with people on these courses and tell them that they have three choices, a) accquiesse, NO MATTER what the situation and geniunely suffer the consequences/aftermath, b) carry an improvised (LEGAL) weapon all of the time or c) study indepth a bladed system.



I presume you mean femoral Loz, and most first aid won't help a femoral wound, only surgery (as in the movie Black Hawk Down when the guy had a fermoral cut).

Quillo, some interesting points, hope you don't mind me asking where/who do you train with??

Degsy, why would you hold the BUCKLE in your hand???

take the belt off,hold the buckle in your hand and take a couple of turns round your mit.This secures the belt in case its grabbed and also gives your hand some level or protection.The reason you dont use the buckle end to strike is because its weight makes it difficult to aim properly and if you do miss a shot it doesnt fly back and take your eye out.Try it.

Quillo

Currently training in Sin Moo Hapkido (www.hapkido.ie) in Tramore. Been there about 4 years now. Also with the Limerick School of Arms (I have a short piece in the current Irish Fighter on Classical Fencing as a martial art).

Used to train under the formidable Tony Deedy in Kaze Arashi Ryu Aiki Jujutsu in Waterford up until the school closed due to lack of regular numbers (only 3 of us at the end - being a very traditional Japanese family system, it wasn't the usual grading mill so few people stayed with it).

Before that I trained for 3 years under David Jackson in ITF (RITA) TKD in Limerick.

Also a bit of a seminar junkie too - been to several of Guru Liam MacDonald's excellent Cimande (Silat) presentations in Firhouse and spent some time at the Aikido dojo on Pearse St in Dublin.

Dave Joyce

take the belt off,hold the buckle in your hand and take a couple of turns round your mit.This secures the belt in case its grabbed and also gives your hand some level or protection.The reason you dont use the buckle end to strike is because its weight makes it difficult to aim properly and if you do miss a shot it doesnt fly back and take your eye out.Try it.

Not disagreeing with you about the use of the belt, BUT it would make a lot more sense USING the buckle (which would make it a Trapo, used as an improvised weapon in Atienza Kali), with the weighted end, which is what you want!! There are practical ways, apart from a lot of practice to make sure it doesn't hit you in the mush btw.

Degsy

Dave Joyce wrote:

Not disagreeing with you about the use of the belt, BUT it would make a lot more sense USING the buckle (which would make it a Trapo, used as an improvised weapon in Atienza Kali), with the weighted end, which is what you want!! There are practical ways, apart from a lot of practice to make sure it doesn't hit you in the mush btw.

The main problem using the buckle end when you're flicking the belt out is accuaracy as it doesnt travel as fast as the other end and is more likely to be grabbed.IF you're just using the shortened belt as a whacking instrument,eg over the knife hand of your attacker then the buckle is better agreed.

MaeveD

MaeveD wrote:

Dave, I'll expand a little on what I mean about the edged weapon defence

Under no circumstances would I recommend that someone engage in a physical confrontation with a knife or edged weapon. The best thing to do is to run away. We teach one defence to give people one option, rather than just stand there and be killed.

I'm talking about a last resort technique when you have absolutely no other choice but to defend yourself from being stabbed.

You can survive cuts. If you sever arteries you're in big trouble, but you have time to be treated. Stabbed in a major organs, you're most likely dead.

I'm quoting myself because I don't think some of you got what I said

According to my sister who's a nurse, the femural artery is the only one that if severed means almost certain death... you can survive the others, though I agree, in this country you'd be lucky with ambulance response times.

If when being attacked I had the time to unbuckle and remove my belt, I'd be long gone

Why we teach one (very un fancy) knife defence... true case from the US ex husband barred from wifes home arrives with a knife, she opens the door.... she ran, he ran after her stabbing repeatedly.. neighbour heard the racket, came in, got stabbed too. The police arrived in less than 5 mins, she had been stabbed around 40-50 times.. she actually survived.

I'd rather have one option than nothing at all

Quillo

Have a look at the nasty pictures at:
http://www.hockscqc.com/knife/index.htm

Shows what can be survived.....

Degsy

MaeveD wrote:

I'm quoting myself because I don't think some of you got what I said

According to my sister who's a nurse, the femural artery is the only one that if severed means almost certain death... you can survive the others, though I agree, in this country you'd be lucky with ambulance response times.

If when being attacked I had the time to unbuckle and remove my belt, I'd be long gone

Why we teach one (very un fancy) knife defence... true case from the US ex husband barred from wifes home arrives with a knife, she opens the door.... she ran, he ran after her stabbing repeatedly.. neighbour heard the racket, came in, got stabbed too. The police arrived in less than 5 mins, she had been stabbed around 40-50 times.. she actually survived.

I'd rather have one option than nothing at all

I'm just saying if your attacker has a knife and you dont,either find a weapon or get cut or run.I think teaching unarmed knife defence is flawed because suddenly joe soap without an ounce of true violence in him thinks he can take on some body with a knife because he's learned a few moves,in a gym,where there's no realistic threat of being slashed to the bone or stabbed in the guts.

MaeveD

Degsy... we teach a last resort technique, nothing fancy. Anyone who purposely takes on a knife is crazy

Degsy

What's the technique?

MaeveD

Just a simple two hands on one block

Degsy

How can you apply that if the attacker is slashing at you?You'll be cut to bits,you'd be better spitting straight in the eyes first..makes them forget the game plan.

MaeveD

Theres a thousand different scenarios... we give people something, I think it's better than giving them nothing.