value for money?

connie147

Went to the sporting emporium on sat.night for the €75(1 rebuy or top up).My first visit there as i live in Killarney but even though the card room is most impressive,value for money was quite poor in my opinion,mainly because of the starting stacks.You get 2,000 chips starting and 3,000 for your rebuy.
With a starting stack of 2,000,the 1st pot you get seriously involved in is putting your whole stack in danger.Surely that cant be right? Or is this the general trend in dublin? A player can do very little playing with a stack like that imho. I met the cardroom manager Bernard who comes accross as a very nice man, and i gave him my opinion. I was just wondering what boardsters think of the tournament or was the absence of boardsters an answer in itself?
relavent info: 30 min clock up to break(150-300),20 min clock after that.

iBoT

yea 2000 chips to isnt the really best but 30 minutes is ok,bernard is a terrible manager in my opinion. ive gone there once and it was the quickest membership in the history of the club.

RoundTower

That structure sounds quite slow to me. I don't think they even have a 150-300 level. 5000 total chips, blinds start at 25-50 and 30 minute levels? Are your tournaments really slower than that?

2000 chips mean you can definitely play a decent sized pot and not be all in. If you are all in and lose, that's what the rebuy is for. I've never played this tourney (I think) but I wouldn't have any concerns about playing it based on the structure.

connie147

RoundTower wrote:

That structure sounds quite slow to me. I don't think they even have a 150-300 level. 5000 total chips, blinds start at 25-50 and 30 minute levels? Are your tournaments really slower than that?

2000 chips mean you can definitely play a decent sized pot and not be all in. If you are all in and lose, that's what the rebuy is for. I've never played this tourney (I think) but I wouldn't have any concerns about playing it based on the structure.

They might as well make it a €150 freeze-out and give a 5000 starting chip.The game i do thats comparable to this one has a 3,750 starting chip and a 4,000 buy back with 25 min blinds.I find punters want a bit of play and really it doesnt affect the house if a generous starting stack is given.

RoundTower

connie147 wrote:

They might as well make it a €150 freeze-out and give a 5000 starting chip.The game i do thats comparable to this one has a 3,750 starting chip and a 4,000 buy back with 25 min blinds.I find punters want a bit of play and really it doesnt affect the house if a generous starting stack is given.

Yes, a 5000-chips freezeout would be similar. But a lot of people like the idea of being able to rebuy, and then there are those who wouldn't enter a €150 freezeout but feel they can afford €75 with "maybe" a rebuy. So I do think some rebuy events are necessary for variety. Your structure sounds extremely slow for a small-buyin tournament -- are you getting the same number of runners? How long does it last?

Ibot, if you think the SE's cardroom is badly managed, would you like to explain why, rather than mounting a personal attack on Bernard? Although I'm not a regular there, it seems I've been there a lot more than you, and I think he's a very good manager. He has a low tolerance for anyone acting the bollocks. What did you do?

iBoT

RoundTower wrote:

Yes, a 5000-chips freezeout would be similar. But a lot of people like the idea of being able to rebuy, and then there are those who wouldn't enter a €150 freezeout but feel they can afford €75 with "maybe" a rebuy. So I do think some rebuy events are necessary for variety. Your structure sounds extremely slow for a small-buyin tournament -- are you getting the same number of runners? How long does it last?

Ibot, if you think the SE's cardroom is badly managed, would you like to explain why, rather than mounting a personal attack on Bernard? Although I'm not a regular there, it seems I've been there a lot more than you, and I think he's a very good manager. He has a low tolerance for anyone acting the bollocks. What did you do?

yes of course, ill give one example, 3 player pot in a tourney, Player A is all in and shows the nuts Player B and C are betting into an side both throw there cards away forgetting about the side pot and bernard decides to give all the chips to player A

Edit:and its not a personal attack just some of the tourney decisions have been terrible

a-k-47

Player B and C are betting into an side both throw there cards away forgetting about the side pot

for having a memory like a goldfish i think player A deserves to take all there chips!:) idiots:D

iBoT

a-k-47 wrote:

for having a memory like a goldfish i think player A deserves to take all there chips!:) idiots:D

lol it was nt me by the way, but its still a bad decision even if the where idiots.

oh yea and i didnt do anything in the S.E coz i was only for 5mins in total coz there wasnt enuff money on the poker tables.

RoundTower

iBoT wrote:

Edit:and its not a personal attack just some of the tourney decisions have been terrible

So you were only there for 5 minutes, wondering if you should play a cash game, and you saw some terrible rulings in a tourney? The incident you mentioned sounds like it was discussed here already, and that Bernard gave the right answer to the wrong question. But if you saw what happened maybe you could elaborate more.

DeVore

Bernard is not a "terrible card room manager" (and saying so is libelous in fact as its his job too).

I've been there a few times and while it isnt particularly my kinda club I think their structures are probably the best in town (currently). Bernard is an ex-dealer and may rule differently then your opinion of the rules is but that doesnt make it wrong and deciding someone is "terrible" in 5 minutes seems... hasty.

In that hand in point I think we determined that there was a flaw in the explanation or perhaps he made a mistake. Humans do that...

DeV.

fixer

I play in the SE more than the Fitz, which works out to once or twice a week. Bernard knows me by name (Duke always messes up and calls me Russell), and listens to feedback. He even rang me after I left abruptly one night obviously pissed off at something, he wanted to be sure everything was okay and to find out what happened.

The only thing the SE needs is more runners in the tourneys. Thursdays is the only night you can count on a decent field. Too bad I already have plans for Saturday, so I'll be missing their €300 monthly freezeout.

Gholimoli

DeVore wrote:

Bernard is not a "terrible card room manager" (and saying so is libelous in fact as its his job too).

I've been there a few times and while it isnt particularly my kinda club I think their structures are probably the best in town (currently). Bernard is an ex-dealer and may rule differently then your opinion of the rules is but that doesnt make it wrong and deciding someone is "terrible" in 5 minutes seems... hasty.

In that hand in point I think we determined that there was a flaw in the explanation or perhaps he made a mistake. Humans do that...

DeV.

Even though i agree with the starting chips not being deep i don’t like what is being said about Bernard.
he is very approachable and has been nothing but helpful to me in all the times ive asked him to do something.
ive been meaning to have a chat with him about the starting stacks and im sure he is willing so listen and if he doesn’t agree with me im sure he will have his reasons.

Culchie

The starting stacks is a time/value conundrum they (they being all organisors/casinos) need to sort out for their evening games especially.

Casinos - I think if they start tournaments earlier at 7.30pm, it would help. For me, "If I'm out, I'm out" so if I've received the neccessary clearance certificate from 'the boss' and used brownie points wisely, it makes no difference if the tournament starts at 7.30 or 8.30pm ... I'm out for the night anyway. (I can't see this working outside of the cities though). For the many bachelors/singletons it shouldn't make any difference.

Another solution would be maybe to soften the jump between levels (e.g 100/200, 150/300, 200/400 instead of 100/200 to 200/400), but maybe start the first 3 levels at 20 mins, and add on 2 mins per blind level every 3 levels (e.g Levels 4-6 = 22mins, 7-9 = 24 mins etc...), so as to give more play as the tournament progresses, and so that it doesn't turn into a crapshoot. Cap it at 30mins, which should mean bubble and final table play has every chance.

Hitman Actual

The 2000/3000 structure isn't that harsh at all, particularly compared to the low-limit multi-rebuy games. It's the same structure as the Fitz scalps game on Friday, and that's generally one of the most playable games around. It all depends on how you approach it: if you play tight early on, just picking up a few pots, you can easily have 6K+ with your top-up after the break. With blinds at 100/200, that makes for a lot of play. Playing this game with the intention of not rebuying is wrong, imo.

The biggest problem with the SE games (and I've only played there once) is the fact that they leave out the 150/300 level. Crazy!! Crap-shoot central. They should start earlier as well, especially during the week.

And I'm with everyone on their defence of Bernard: Very good manager and very fair.

ollyk1

I'm going to kick this debate a different way.

Say I run a casino in the heart of Dublin. I charge €5 per head (say €250 for a standard ~50 players) and for that I offer 5-6 hours of playing time, approximately 20 man hours between dealers and TD, food and waitresses, safe and secure environment with security staff, and a "reasonable" game structure. I make a loss per player effectively which I hope to recoup by having you play cash games or gambling on the premises but over half of the field don't do this.

Now the question I'd ask is should I offer real "value for money" by offering a better structure (this would only make the game on average an hour or two longer) but would result in a lot lesss gambling on my premises as the majority of the field would go out an hour and a half later than normal say and therefore have less time to gamble so the charge would not be an extra 12.5% on the reg but the true economic cost of losing the gambling "subsidy" to the tournie costs and therefore I'd have to charge maybe €15 a head OR should I do what all the competition is doing and stick with the present setup?


Personally I'd stick with the current setup because you'd get crucifixed in the market if you tried to offer real "value for money" and charged a €15 reg as well as helping "better" players and therefore losing your most valued customers (the gamblors)!

Its a balancing act by the casinos they want the most crapshootist game in the world but to get punters they need to offer some play. Right now they get the punters so whats their incentive to improve the tournament? I think people get a bit fooled by the fact that the casinos are technically "card clubs" they are not in it for the good of the game, that hardly needs to be stated.

connie147

Gholimoli wrote:

Even though i agree with the starting chips not being deep i don’t like what is being said about Bernard.
he is very approachable and has been nothing but helpful to me in all the times ive asked him to do something.
ive been meaning to have a chat with him about the starting stacks and im sure he is willing so listen and if he doesn’t agree with me im sure he will have his reasons.

My original thread staded that I found Bernard to be a very nice man.When i spoke to him about it he seemed very interested in my viewpoint and said he was going to have another look at the starting stacks.My view is that players who come with the intention of only paying the €75 do not get much play unless they hit cards early on.Several players at my table didnt buy back but any negative comments i heard were all on the same subject i.e.2,000 starting stack.I only mentioned it to Bernard to be helpful.
The good news is that 4 of us(cue club card rooms killarney)played in the tourney and 3 made it to the final table,with Mags"mystic megs"Curtin finishing 6th,Keith"K-9"Cummins finishing r-up and Dave Mahoney(silver fox) winning the tourney.Not bad for our first raid on the Emporium.