The New Fundamentalists - Monday @ 8pm, C4

robindch

FYI, tomorrow evening at 2000h on Channel Four, there's a documentary which lifts the lid off some of the UK's state-funded "evangelical" schools which teach creationism, the evils of homosexuality and various falsehoods about contraception:

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/fund.html:

The The New Fundamentalists

Rod Liddle investigates the evangelical Christians who tell teenagers that contraception won't protect them and that homosexuality is wrong - and discovers what children are taught in the state schools they run. Julia Bard reports

The mainstream of the Anglican Church, comfortably familiar to Radio 4 listeners and those who pray only at Christmas and Easter, is in decline. But the evangelical wing is growing. It is targeting and recruiting young people and, says and middle-of-the-road Christian Rod Liddle, could make up half the congregation of the Church of England within five years.

In this Channel 4 Dispatches film, Liddle investigates the ideas and activities of Britain's fundamentalist Christians, whose churches buzz with music, dance and American-style preachers who teach that every word of the Bible is literally true.

They campaign to censor artistic works they consider blasphemous, like Jerry Springer, The Opera; they outlaw homosexuality and urge young people to pledge that they will abstain from sex outside marriage. To encourage celibacy, says Liddle, they give teenagers misleading information, telling them that condoms do not offer protection against pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. Statistics from the USA, though, show that 88% of young people who have taken the pledge to abstain from sex fail to keep it; they are then left in ignorance about contraception and safer sex.

He visits the state schools run by the Emmanuel Schools Foundation (endowed by fundamentalist Christian Sir Peter Vardy): Emmanuel College in Gateshead, The Kings Academy in Middlesbrough and the most recent addition to the stable, Trinity Academy in Doncaster. All three are academies - an arrangement greatly encouraged by the Government, where private organisations or companies pledge £2 million and the taxpayers add a further £25 million to create state-of-the-art buildings and facilities. And though these are state schools, the sponsors are free to adapt the curriculum, are not bound to have a comprehensive admissions policy and have control over the land and other assets.

As Rod Liddle discovered, these three schools teach evolution, for which there is a mass of evidence, as if it were a 'faith position', giving equal weight to the Bible story of the world being created in seven days. The schools are also very strict - parents and former teachers have described them as 'totalitarian'. The parents of children at the Doncaster academy are furious that this extreme religious sect has been handed the job of running their local school and say that students are subjected to humiliating treatment, such as girls being refused permission to leave the classroom to change their sanitary towels.

These parents are not alone in believing that the schools' good exam results are attained, in part, by potential 'low achievers' being expelled on flimsy pretexts. For example, in the first year of its existence, the rate of permanent exclusion at The Kings Academy was 16 times higher than that of any other school in the area.

Those at the evangelical extreme of the church are militant and growing. Rod Liddle argues that, by replacing doubt and debate with simplistic certainty, they are in conflict with Britain's liberal democratic traditions. And while they are entitled to believe whatever they like as individuals, they should not be handed money to run state schools.

I can't believe it's headed over to England as well =/
Yes, I've read the teen pregnancy rate in American areas where only abstinence education is taught is a lot higher than other areas.
I wish schools would stop lying to children.

And while they are entitled to believe whatever they like as individuals, they should not be handed money to run state schools.

I very much agree.

Morbert

Yeh... I think it's important that this particualr brand of Christianity is stamped out as soon as possible.

Thankfully my home state isn't too bad so far.

RobEire

I am looking forward to seeing this documentary. Might actually be interesting.

It is disturbing if there has been a noticeable rise in fundamentalist Christianity in the UK as well.

John Doe

This kind of thing worries me so much. I'm a sad bear now.

UU

Sounds interesting . . . . . . Fundamentalism isn't good at all. Whether it is Christian, Islamic, Jewish or even secular, I really don't like it. I find it rather disturbing that many Fundamentalist Christians preach much hatred and bigotry (racism, homophobia, etc.). Well, did Jesus teach these things? No.

In fact, they aren't really proper Christians imo as many don't even follow Jesus' beliefs. Jesus taught forgiveness love, compassion, tolerance, etc. not hatred, discrimination and intolerance. I suppose it would be suitable to pray for them.

Excelsior

Jesus' actual message was that he was the Son of God and that through faith in him every single person can be reconciled with God. So you can't really define fundies as not "real Christians" because of what they do.

Also, I don't have a kneejerk reaction against fundamentalists. It depends on what your fundamentals are. Have you ever seen Amish terrorists? Mennonites? Can you imagine Robin blowing up buildings? No. Fundamentalists need to be judged, like everything else, by both what they believe and how they act out of that belief. Typically, the idea you have of fundamentalist grows not out of insane action but insane belief that leads to the action.

hairyheretic

Would you agree though that fundamentalists (of any religion) do seem more likely to commit extreme acts than those of a more moderate belief?

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

Would you agree though that fundamentalists (of any religion) do seem more likely to commit extreme acts than those of a more moderate belief?

I think that is a fair assessment

Excelsior

Yeah yeah yeah. Of course. No subset of moderates commit violence. A large subset of fundamentalists do. But we have seen the poles move in the last 5 years to define fundamentalism as a violent urge instead of as a stubborn refusal to compromise. There are many pacifistic fundamentalisms in Christianity. Amish are unlikely to unload a dirty bomb over Berlin anytime soon. It is a digression but an important point nonetheless...

hairyheretic

I have no problem with Fundamentalists such as the Amish, because they are not trying to inflict their beliefs on everyone else, or force others to behave as they do.

That's the crux of my distrust of fundamentalism (of any variety). You are perfectly entitled to believe what you want to, but have NO right to try enforcing those beliefs on others.

robindch

> Jesus' actual message was that he was the Son of God and that through
> faith in him every single person can be reconciled with God. So you can't
> really define fundies as not "real Christians" because of what they do.

I'll second that, though for a different reason -- christians, like members of just about every other religion, are self-selecting, meaning that if they say they're christians then they are christians. There are no qualification criteria because the religion is whatever you say it is, whether that's a statement that one "accepts christ as saviour", the literal truth of genesis or something else. The daftest of many religious arguments I've seen are the one's between similar religions, each tearing strips off each other for believing (or not believing) some minor detail or other.

> Fundamentalists need to be judged, like everything else, by both what they
> believe and how they act out of that belief.

Again, agreed. But I simply can't think of any people who describe themselves as fundamentalists who are moderate, decent humans who are willing to live and let live.

Perhaps that should be the definition of a fundie: somebody who wants to control what other people believe, whereas a non-fundie is happy to let other people believe what they want to?

larryone

In complete agreement with you there hairyheretic.
Do those evangelists who stand on streets in dublin shouting through a microphone count among those who force their beliefs upon others? It's certainly unprovoked harassment to shout at people through a microphone that they're going to burn in hell if they dont accept bla belief.
I wonder about the rights of the children who attend these schools...

hairyheretic

robindch wrote:

I'll second that, though for a different reason -- christians, like members of just about every other religion, are self-selecting, meaning that if they say they're christians then they are christians.

I'd disagree with you slightly there. You can claim to be just about anything ... its how you behave that shows the truth of your claims, and what you really are.

larryone

*thinks of starting a thread discussing the definition of Christianity

UU

larryone wrote:

*thinks of starting a thread discussing the definition of Christianity

That would actually be a very good idea larryone.

RobEire

I saw the documentary in the end - was very weak really. There were some interesting, and disturbing issues raised, but overall it was just disappointing.

John Doe

With regard to the positive or negative-ness of fundies: I think it's unhelpful to regard fundamentalism as a bad thing in itself (though I've been guilty of saying pretty much exactly that in the past), but my problem with fundamental philosophies is that they often seem to be taking the easy way out: using basic ideas to avoid the in-depth consideration of issues that is so often necessary.

Excelsior

I think I'd agree with you. If fundamentalism is bad it isn't because it inevitably leads to violence (it clearly doesn't) but that simplistic black and white answers are not sufficient responses to the reality of the world around us and so fundamentalism is bad insofar as it is inevitably impoverishing.