Legal opinion on pub tournaments

mcaul

As I have an interest in ensuring pub tounament continue (I supply many of the tables & chips) I have been trying to get legal opinion on the issue of Pub / Hotel tounaments and finally managed to get what seems a very sensible opinion (most barristers shrugged and did not know what legislation it came under)

The following assumptions apply -

1. Poker is regarded as a "game of skill".

2. Poker, whist, 25's, bridge, darts, snooker, quizes, pool etc are known as Parlour Games. The definition of Parlour Games is a game played indoors.



The paying of an entry/registration fee to tournament organiser (facilitator) is also not unlawful. The paying of monies into a "prizepool" to win prizes at any "parlour games" is also not unlawful and is not considered gambling under the gaming act.

As each person theorectically has an equal chance of winning at the start and as each player is playing under the same conditions it is not considered gambling. - As in every game of skill the more knowledgable players will win more often than less knowledgeable players.

Gambling is when a third party has a input into a result. E.G. Poker machines can be programmed & one armed bandits have a controlled payout. Roulette / Craps are games of chance and thus do come under gaming legislation.


On the question of re-buys, assuming that every participant has an opportunity to re-buy on an equal basis this is also permitted.

The one area where there could be conflict is if there is no separation between Prize money & money taken for costs / profits.

If you state a registration / facilitation fee & only take your costs / profits from this & all other monies received going into a prize pool you not regarded as operating a gaming table.

If however you do not specify the separation between profit/cost monies and monies for prizes then there could be a case to answer.




Please note - this is just legal opinion from a barrister through my sister (also a barrister) but should be enough to put hotels / bars at ease regarding the law and also give something for the certain few Gardai who have recently been making noises. - Ideally give a copy of above to your solicitor and they can do up their own opinion based on it.

The main point is Poker is a Game of skill rather than a game of chance and therefore is not governed under the gaming act.

enjoy the games - long may they last.

p.s. We have 30% off everything in Special Days, Liffey Valley til next sunday 12th march - we are doing a major re-fit & will be closed from 6pm 12th March though to approx. lunchtime on 16th March.

De Deraco

assumptions are the mother of all f#ck ups.
the issue hasn't been decided in an irish court yet, and until it is it will remain a very gray area.
The irish courts will find the decision in the Cavendish case very persuasive.
As a rule you should make it a 'private members' club.

mcaul

It is a safe assumption that Poker is a parlour game.

It is also a safe assumption that poker is a game of skill.

"Legal Opinion" is an opinion from a barrister and is based on what he/she sees as the best form of defence for any particular case.


As I stated quite clearly, it is best to put these arguments to your own solicitor and have he/she investigate further but they should be able to agree that the opinion I got is a very valid one.


Regarding the Cavendish - did they not also have Roulette, Blackjack etc?

bohsman

Yes the Cavendish also had roulette etc but the judge made it very clear that he did not believe poker was a game of skill

Pokerevents

see thread in main forum

mcaul

For every Judge that says Poker is a game of chance there's another that says it a game of skill - you could very well have a legal case going on for years.

The debate seems to have been waged for years in USA and frankly it depends ont he state and what judge you get.




Tibbetts v. Van de Kamp, 271 Cal.Rptr. 792, 222 Cal.App.3d 389 (1st
Dist. Ct. Appeal, 1990) held that Texas Hold’em was not a stud poker
game and therefore, under Section 330, could be played at the Oaks, a
licensed cardroom.


In SYMPOSIUM: CROSS-BORDER ISSUES IN GAMING: The Games People Play: Is It Time for a New Legal Approach to Prize Games? Anthony N. Cabot*, Louis V. Csoka 4 Nev. L.J. 197 (Winter, 2003) the authors say: “To assess the legality of such games, most states have adopted the "predominance test." Under that test, if the winner is determined predominantly by chance, then the activity is gambling. If, however, the winner is determined predominantly by skill, then the activity is a contest. Two more traditional activities within the "grey area" are poker and backgammon, both of which have elements of skill and chance. To date, these two games have been held to be predominantly skill-based by some courts and predominately chance-based by others.” Id at 202-3 (Footnote references omitted.)

Goodluck2me

Pokerevents wrote:

see thread in main forum

where is the main forum?

charlesanto

mcaul wrote:

1. Poker is regarded as a "game of skill".

Thread - "Question for the pros"

bohsman wrote:

No tax on gambling winnings in Ireland. No tax refunds on losses either.
Remember its gambling not a game of skill.

Samba

Pub tournaments are 100% legal if they are carried out in a certain manner.

Pub re-buy tournaments are actually illegal - the rebuy aspect.

jhegarty

mcaul wrote:

As in every game of skill the more knowledgable players will win more often than less knowledgeable players

you must have never seen the rivers on PPP then.......