Hand Analysis

Youngza

Two final tables, 1 three handed, the other five handed, I'm in the BB on both occasions with a medium stack.
Shortstacks UTG push having stole the previous two blinds (in the last two hands), previously both players were quite inactive waiting to pick up a hand.
I call on both occasions with Ax, walk into QQ's and didn't improve.:mad:
Both calls cripple me and I go out shortly afterwards, should I have let them go? Were they bad calls?

Gholimoli

Youngza wrote:

Two final tables, 1 three handed, the other five handed, I'm in the BB on both occasions with a medium stack.
Shortstacks UTG push having stole the previous two blinds (in the last two hands), previously both players were quite inactive waiting to pick up a hand.
I call on both occasions with Ax, walk into QQ's and didn't improve.:mad:
Both calls cripple me and I go out shortly afterwards, should I have let them go? Were they bad calls?

more information needed about exact stack sizes of every one involved and also payout structure.alos blind levels

Youngza

Sorry,

3 handed game - blinds 2k/4k, shortstack's all in is @ 13k and I had about 20k, it was the freeroll last Thursday for the Fitz €250 and they were giving out 2 tickets, needless to say I bubbled.

5 handed game - blinds 5k/10k, ST's all in is @ 65,000k and I had @ 110,000k.
Last night in the Red Cow, I got €625 for fifth, 4th got €750 package to Limerick Boylesports sattelite, 3rd got package + €150, 2nd got package + €500 and 1st got package + €1500.

Gholimoli

Youngza wrote:

Sorry,

3 handed game - blinds 2k/4k, shortstack's all in is @ 13k and I had about 20k, it was the freeroll last Thursday for the Fitz €250 and they were giving out 2 tickets, needless to say I bubbled.

5 handed game - blinds 5k/10k, ST's all in is @ 65,000k and I had @ 110,000k.
Last night in the Red Cow, I got €625 for fifth, 4th got €750 package to Limerick Boylesports sattelite, 3rd got package + €150, 2nd got package + €500 and 1st got package + €1500.

First hand:
You have not mentioned the stack of third person.
However I would still fold here. Even though the short stack is desperate and could push here with a wide range of hands, but Ax is not that strong to justify a call here. Short stack looks like his laying well using the GAP concept to his advantage knowing that you will need a strong hand to call him and even if you do he can win. I would imagine you need something like AJ minimum to make the call correct. Remember in these situations you can push with a lot more hands than you can call a push with and that’s what makes the push such a powerful play.

Hand two :
Pretty much the same thing. Especially if the raise comes from an EP rather than LP I’ll be more inclined to give them credit for a hand. Also I was to call I rather calling with a hand that I think is live.

fuzzbox

In the first one - its 9k to call to win a pot of 13+4+2 = 19. Getting over 2:1 with a hand that usually has at least a 30% chance to win, with blinds so high, is not a bad play. Call. Blinds are too big to throw away an Ace, and villain could have any two cards in this spot (having 3 BBs himself).

In 2nd one you are a bit deeper, and I would prefer a fold. I rather betting with my Ax, than calling with it.

RoundTower

I agree with Gholimoli. For a change.

Edit: what is the third stack size in the first one? I think I can fold anyway.

Culchie

What did you put the shortstack's all in as being in the freeroll? (Hand Range)

fuzzbox

Really guys - shorty has 13k. Blinds are 2k/4k.
You are in the BB, and he moves in.

The game is 3-handed.

What are you planning to wait for?

Youngza

3rd players stack was @45,000k, thanks for the feedback.
I really need to tighten up my play short-handed as I am consistently getting to final tables and coming up short.
I guess more experience will help this in the future, in the mean time are there any particular rules of thumb that might improve my situation that work for you guys?

Culchie

Youngza ... I went out 4th in that freeroll. You were sitting to my right.

I folded an A8 to Poky Poky's push which I knew to be a mistake as soon as I did it about 5 mins earlier, it cost me the ticket.
It was his first move, and I gave him credit for the move, depite thinking I was ahead.

The other fellahs hand range would have been much wider (Cork fellah) ... so you were right to call.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Really guys - shorty has 13k. Blinds are 2k/4k.
You are in the BB, and he moves in.

The game is 3-handed.

What are you planning to wait for?

pushing with 72.

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

Really guys - shorty has 13k. Blinds are 2k/4k.
You are in the BB, and he moves in.

The game is 3-handed.

What are you planning to wait for?

To bleed into the money, of course. It's a satellite. Also it sounds like UTG's range is tighter than normal.

Gholimoli

in this situation its clear that you can push with alot more hands than you can call a push with.if Ax is in the range of your pushing hands then clearly it can not be in your calling range too.
i havent done that math on this but im pretty sure that if you put this in sng power tools it would make the call here with Ax -EV.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

pushing with 72.

Being that the money is so shallow you should have approx zero fold equity.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

in this situation its clear that you can push with alot more hands than you can call a push with.if Ax is in the range of your pushing hands then clearly it can not be in your calling range too.
i havent done that math on this but im pretty sure that if you put this in sng power tools it would make the call here with Ax -EV.

I would rate a call here with Ax as +EV. Villain could have any two cards. Really - he has 3 BBs and you are getting 2.2:1 on the call.

His range = anything
Your odds = good

ollyk1

You should have suggested a 3 way chop in the freeroll of €120 in credit each and play for the remaining €140 for the winner if you weren't willing to gamble it up. With the blinds so high and two stacks in serious trouble it was always going to come down to somebody getting lucky with a good hand at the right time or someone getting dogged.

You knew this so you can't complain afterwards when it goes against you that's freeroll poker for you. It doesn't mean your final table play is poor or that you did anything wrong it was "gamble time" and you got unlucky. Nothing more to be learnt really.

Youngza

ollyk1 wrote:

You should have suggested a 3 way chop in the freeroll .

It was suggested but declined by the chap on my right (Poky Poky?) and I dithered, will consider more carefully in the future!!

ollyk1 wrote:

You knew this so you can't complain

Not really complaining!

ollyk1 wrote:

It doesn't mean your final table play is poor or that you did anything wrong it was "gamble time" and you got unlucky. Nothing more to be learnt really.

I felt it was gamble time also, but was wondering if I could have been more accurate with my timing?

Youngza

Culchie wrote:

Youngza ... I went out 4th in that freeroll. You were sitting to my right.

Hey Culchie, good to put a face to the name!

Culchie wrote:

The other fellahs hand range would have been much wider (Cork fellah) ... so you were right to call.

I thought he was acting the maggot alright.

In retrospect, I think the blinds were even stronger as we requested a freeze on them around this time as the swings were quite large with each hand.

Anyway I think I will think twice before employing Ax to defend my blinds in the future!

Ste05

Youngza wrote:

Shortstacks UTG push having stole the previous two blinds (in the last two hands)

3 handed, and a 3BB UTG's third push in succession and people are advocating folding an A here :eek: , I would call here every time.