Horses in Trinity

This happened a week or so ago, and perlexed me a bit.

I was walking from House 6 to the Arts Block, when I heard the sound of "clip clop" behind me. Yes, two Gardaí with horses had entered Trinity through front arch. They then proceeded to go to the Arts Block (with me behind them at that stage), do a lap of Fellow's Square, and exit through the Nassau Street gate. Now, for all you knowledge fiends...

1) Are the Gardaí allowed on Trinity without being invited? I heard that rumour a few years ago.
2) Since at least one of the horses releaved themselves by the window into the Lecky, is it the responsibility of Trinity or the Gardaí for bringing a pooper scooper for the horses?
3) Can I bring a horse in if I find one?

Answers on a postcard to House 6, please...

osd

Turner

Why wouldnt they be allowed in??
Arent the public allowed in to walk around?

I think those horses look class. Very well kept and groomed.

Aswell as that there is a licensed premises on campus, so under the Liqour Licensing laws any Garda are allowed enter that premises without being invited.

Ag marbh

More snobbery. The horses dont pay the fee's....

Time Magazine

Ag marbh, I'd suggest you edit that comment before you get banned tbh.

There are no fees into College, but it is private property that's generally open to the public - including Gardai, but I don't think it's official policy to let people pee on the grounds. For that reason, I don't think animals are allowed in.

I've no problem with the gardai or anyone else coming on campus as long as they don't disturb the place too much. Meh, I suppose one bit of horse piss isn't too bad.

All three of the licenced premises are private clubs that you have to be signed into. One of them doesn't insist on it at all, and another depends on who's the bouncer on at the time.

Angry Banana

Angry Banana wrote:

I've no problem with the gardai or anyone else coming on campus as long as they don't disturb the place too much. Meh, I suppose one bit of horse piss isn't too bad.

It wasn't piss...

ApeXaviour

Ag marbh wrote:

More snobbery. The horses dont pay the fee's....

lol

I think the first question is fairly obvious. Second I don't think applies to trinity but any place in general, who's responsability is it to clean up? I reckon because back in the day most people's form of transport would have been horse-powered I'd it was the proprietor, if they wanted it clean then they could damn well go and clean it.

I think garda animals get special dispensation on entering premises. I mean you can't even bring a dog onto campus unless it's a guide dog. Surely your statutes somewhere can pick out the allowability (is that even a word?) of students staff bringing horses on campus, eh eh dónal?

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/mountedunit.html

Edit:

Angry Banana wrote:

Ag marbh, I'd suggest you edit that comment before you get banned tbh.

You're kidding right? I thought that was hilarious!

Only reference I can find which is to do with animals is about Commons.

Ron DMC

ApeXaviour wrote:

You're kidding right? I thought that was hilarious!

It was hilarious

Time Magazine

ApeXaviour wrote:

You're kidding right? I thought that was hilarious!

I took it seriously the first time. Either he edited it or I mis-read it!

Turner

Angry Banana wrote:

All three of the licenced premises are private clubs that you have to be signed into. One of them doesn't insist on it at all, and another depends on who's the bouncer on at the time.

Doesnt matter if they are private clubs, they are still a licensed premises.

18.—(1) Any member of the Garda Síochána, whether in uniform or not, may enter without a warrant any licensed premises at any time and there make such inspection, examination, observation and enquiry as he or she may think proper for the prevention or detection of offences under the Acts or this Act.

Time Magazine

Good point.

They weren't near any of them though.

Does that mean if they close the gates of college they have to close the Pav? .

europerson

[Amazed Voice]Cool, horses in College.[/Amazed Voice] The Gardaí, and, I assume, their animals/equipment, can come in any time they like, can't they? It's the same as when one sees Gardaí walking through shopping centres...?

Ag marbh

Angry Banana wrote:

I took it seriously the first time. Either he edited it or I mis-read it!

I didn't edit it and you didn't misread it. It was a display of brownie point gathering and high horse sitting.

DrIndy

Gardai are not allowed into trinity without permission from college security without a warrant. However, permission involves nodding to each other as they pass to acknowledge permission given/received.

Regarding the poop, it is very nutritious and this is why dogs and wolves regularily eat poop of herbivores, particularily horses and moose as they have a poorly developed digestive system unlike ruminants and so contain considerable quantities of digestible carbohydrates. It would not surprise me if a hungry philopsophy student were to stumble on this treasure trove of nutrition and gorge him/herself on it to stave of the pangs of needing to eat in the Buttery where the average meal has less nutritional value than a soggy cardboard box behind the Ussher.

Edumyth, you may indeed bring a horse to campus - but you are not a scholar and as such - may not.

Turner

They do not need permission to enter. Read my above post.

Obviously they are not allowed enter residential buildings or offices without a warrant (or invited), but are allowed enter the campus and inspect any licensed premises (without warrant).

Nietzschean

Chief--- wrote:

They do not need permission to enter. Read my above post.

Judging from your quoted act they would have to proceed directly to a licenced premsis to use that as a reason for entry, which these garda obviously didn't. Thus it would be a whole other case.

cuckoo

Indy beat me to it on the mentioning of scholars.

Where's Xeducat when we need him? There should be a bat signal type thing that could be beamed up when a tread needs his esoteric level of knowledge of trinity. ISAW's good at it as well.

So, to settle the myth once and for all - does anyone really know what the story is with guards entering college? I was told as a JFer that they couldn't without the permission outlined by Indy above, due to statutes dating back to the founding of the college and something to do with the land ownership.

What college really needs is some minature sheep grazing on the cricket pitch - such a pastoral scene could be calming for stressed out students coming up to exam time.

Time Magazine

Ag marbh wrote:

I didn't edit it and you didn't misread it. It was a display of brownie point gathering and high horse sitting.

Now that's out of line. Quite frankly you have no idea what the relationship is like between me and the moderator I had in mind when I gave you that warning; so let's just say it's certainly not one of a brownie point pursuit. Having been personally banned before for (in my mind) less, I was bloody trying to help you.

I mis-read it. I read it something along the lines of "More snobbery. They don't pay the fees." which would quite possibly to get you banned in my opinion.

Ag marbh

Angry Banana wrote:

Now that's out of line. Quite frankly you have no idea what the relationship is like between me and the moderator I had in mind when I gave you that warning; so let's just say it's certainly not one of a brownie point pursuit. Having been personally banned before for (in my mind) less, I was bloody trying to help you.

I mis-read it. I read it something along the lines of "More snobbery. They don't pay the fees." which would quite possibly to get you banned in my opinion.

Liar liar pants on fire

Time Magazine

College is private land. That's why Heggles can order the gates be closed when he likes.

Statutes: http://www.gsu.tcd.ie/files/Statutes-Current.pdf (>600kb).

If the gardaí want to check the Buttery, they should probably enter Front Gate and go direct. To enter the Pav, probably enter through the Pav gate.

Otherwise it's a bit like having a stroll through the fairways of a golf course before inspecting its licenced premises.

That said, I've absolutely no problems with the cops having a gander. We're not a secret society!

Nietzschean

Ag marbh wrote:

Liar liar pants on fire

get a life.

Ag marbh

Nietzschean wrote:

get a life.

Sorry did you take me seriously? I'll add the </joke> tags next time

NewOxfordReview

Where is the rule that scholars can bring horses in?

Ag marbh

NewOxfordReview wrote:

Where is the rule that scholars can bring horses in?

It's on the fees form

xeduCat

Everyone is right, to some extent. Trinity's status is similar to a standard private dwelling/piece of land, it's different to other HE institutions, as it has a separate charter etc etc etc. Some normal State rules on higher education apply; others don't. So for example, when the Universities Act was passed in 1997, some parts applied to all seven unis, others applied to six, and Trinity then brought a 'private bill' to the Seanad to amend its charter/statutes/etc. This was a long and complicated story, with many twists and turns, and isn't really relevant here.

There are various reasons that the Gardai can enter private property - some are on the basis of common law (i.e. cases / general principles), others are on the basis of specific statutes. When private property has a strong public interface, there is typically a standing arrangement with the local Garda station, and as far as I know, Trinity has such with Pearse St - i.e. they have a working relationship that avoids separate bureaucracy for each entry.

Some bits of the licensing laws apply to licensed public houses only; others also apply to clubs. The bit that someone quoted above is specified (under the same statute, the Intox Liquor Act - 2003 I think) to apply to clubs as if they were licensed premises. Actually there are a whole lot of problems with the club licences on college - the Buttery in particular could be done for sooooo many different reasons - but in terms of this question, yes the words quoted do apply and therefore there is a statutory right of access to the bar. However normal rules of law apply (esp. with regard to evidence), so the general principle is that a statutory right of access to private property is narrowly construed - i.e. you can't do things that you're not permitted to do under the cloak of something you are. There are books and books about this so I'll leave it at that.

Of course, most crimes are without relevance to whether they are committed on public or private property. Just for the record.

Nietzschean

Ag marbh wrote:

Sorry did you take me seriously? I'll add the </joke> tags next time

no i was more pointing out your not half as funny as you appear to think you are.

snorlax

I once saw some really nice white horses outside the chapel for a wedding. It was really nice to see them and they we're very well groomed. I think you can get married in TCD but there's a time limit on how long you have to get married after you graduate.

7 years I think.

cuckoo

EduMyth wrote:

7 years I think.

As soon as i graduate i'll have a big countdown type clock ticking it down. Snorlax, i've also seen horses and carriages outside the chapel, but i think the effect may be ruined slightly by having to drive in through the Lincoln Gate and up through the less than scenic east end. It would be brilliant if the horse and cart could be driven in through Front Gate.

cianclarke

cuckoo wrote:

Indy beat me to it on the mentioning of scholars.
What college really needs is some minature sheep grazing on the cricket pitch - such a pastoral scene could be calming for stressed out students coming up to exam time.

Now THAT would be good... It'd give them a bit of an edge over the other Uni's at CAO time. I mean who else could have shepp...?

Nietzschean

cuckoo wrote:

As soon as i graduate i'll have a big countdown type clock ticking it down. Snorlax, i've also seen horses and carriages outside the chapel, but i think the effect may be ruined slightly by having to drive in through the Lincoln Gate and up through the less than scenic east end. It would be brilliant if the horse and cart could be driven in through Front Gate.

could you not take the vehicle gate out near the butter there?

Pet

Then you have the smell of Buttery "food" wafted in your face. I think most people would take the concrete-henge air of the east end over that any day..

ApeXaviour

cuckoo wrote:

It would be brilliant if the horse and cart could be driven in through Front Gate.

Soon as you go through the gates a bus is gonna mill into those lovely horses....

EduMyth

EduMyth wrote:

3) Can I bring a horse in if I find one?

Answers on a postcard to House 6, please...

I've bits of the answer to the last question of mine yesterday. The Charles I letters patent (1637) outline horses, dogs, cats and other animals allowed/not allowed on campus. It's in latin, and the guy translating it yesterday said the Provost and also maybe Senior Fellows are only allowed to have horses.

If that's the case, then the present statutes say:

Legislative Powers of the Board

3. The powers formerly exercisable by the Provost and Senior Fellows as a body shall, save as elsewhere provided in these Statutes, be deemed to refer to and be exercisable by the Board.

I've to get a full written translation, and that's an engineer's interpretation of the statutes (so therefore probably missing some crucial aspects).