suitedconnectoritis

pokypoky

I think I have a problem. I was thinking of the major weaknesses in my game recently and discovered that i have a poky illness that seems incurable. The problem is that I'm finding it hard to lay low suited connectors down. They always hold so much promise for an optimist such as myself. Thw lower the better...

I have no problem with playing them because in the right situation they are delicious hands but playing them to raises or raising utg on an agressive table is too expensive to justify the thrill i get from occasionally flopping the nuts and watching with delight as the overpair stakes his tank on the assumption that i wouldnt raise with such crap. That heady mix of extreme embarrassment and uncontrollable delight can be quite addictive.

My question is what people think of opening and calling raises with low suited connectors? Can it ever be justified?

ianmc38

pokypoky wrote:

My question is what people think of opening and calling raises with low suited connectors? Can it ever be justified?

Yes and yes. Limping in for cheap in late position with a hand like 67s is fine. Can often prove profitable. I'd often open raise with TJ, 9T suited in LP as well.

I'd probably fold them from early position though as you'll be oop and you dont know what action is going to follow.

Norwich Fan Rob

they are best in the first few levels when u can get them in cheaply.
no so good late on, with big blinds, and an aggressive table.

fuzzbox

They are fine hands to play, and I've no problem raising em.

However - stacks need to be deep, and position needs to be late.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

They are fine hands to play, and I've no problem raising em.

However - stacks need to be deep, and position needs to be late.

agree with this.
if stack are deep and you have position you can win not only by hitting the flop ,but also when villain has missed the flop then you can try to represent it.

SilverFox261

Id call a raise of anything up to 4 times the blinds with suited connectors, even if i am oop. A raise like that will more than likely scare off the rest of the table, and the sight of you calling will almost guarentee a 1 V 1 pre flop.

In that situation, your SC's are favourite against any pocket pair,as you will almost definately have more hand possibilites.

ianmc38

SilverFox261 wrote:

your SC's are favourite against any pocket pair

What planet are you on?

I must remember next time i have 34s that i'm a big fave against the rockets heads up.

Bandana boy

Calling with small connectors oop is a sure way to bleed your stack off

you need position and you need to be able to play them without hitting a flop otherwise you become very obvious
e.g
On Full tilt Dude called every pre flop raise and folded every flop then comes over the top after an hour of this and everybody folds
He shows his flopped str8

Muppet

shoutman

Sc's are a very pretty looking hand and can prove quite profititable but as already stated its best to play them in late position and for as cheap as possible, unless its checked around in which case I would raise any scs from67 upwards.

To say that they are favourites against a pocket pair is just wrong however they arent the worst hand to push with if you get very short stacked as you do have outs.

Gholimoli

SilverFox261 wrote:

Id call a raise of anything up to 4 times the blinds with suited connectors, even if i am oop. A raise like that will more than likely scare off the rest of the table, and the sight of you calling will almost guarentee a 1 V 1 pre flop.

In that situation, your SC's are favourite against any pocket pair,as you will almost definately have more hand possibilites.

this is very bad advice.
i dont agree with this at all.
I don’t want to be HU with my 67s or 89s.these hands are not HU hands at all. when HU your high cards have much more value than your SC.
The good thing about SC is their implied odds. your implied odds are better the more players in the hand.
For example if your on the button with 67s and you have an EP raiser and a couple of callers and flop comes something like A 3 4(one of your suit) then you have the implied odds of drawing to your back door flush or middle pin str if a few others are still in the hand but you will not have them odds if its HU and you will have o let the hand go to first sign of strength.

Jaden

If I know I'm up against AA then I want to have 89s.

Suited connectors are all too easy to fall in Love with. Play them in late position, multihanded. For this reason, I have always thought to limp with them - it keeps people in the pot.

Post flop, I try to keep the post size low until I have alot of outs, or hit big.

I have never had trouble letting them go, but alot of people seem to.

bohsman

I agree, sc against an overpair is 50 50 well worth it.

Culchie

I think 56s is the ultimate Ace Cracker hand, if I'm not mistaken?

fuzzbox

Ppl have some form of strange love affair with SCs. It is a disease, that causes ppl to leak off their chips in silly situations.

If you know that I have AA, and you know that you can never bluff me off my hand, then you MUCH prefer to have a pocket pair, and you should regularly FOLD your suited connectors to my raise (if we are not deep). If we are deep, then you can call me with anything because I am a payoff machine. If we are shallow - then you are getting insufficient implied odds to pay for all the bets that I make preflop. Also - you are liable to stack-off incorrectly after the flop with just a draw (once again a -EV play).

However - with a PP you will either hit a set, or not, on the flop, so you are less inclined to bleed off further chips postflop with a PP.

If, however, you can also BLUFF me, then you can call, in position, with hands like small SCs. Now you have 1. position, 2. bluff equity, 3. implied odds. Now you can play your SCs. But we must be deep, or 2 and 3 go down in value.

Running Bing

SilverFox261 wrote:

Id call a raise of anything up to 4 times the blinds with suited connectors, even if i am oop. A raise like that will more than likely scare off the rest of the table, and the sight of you calling will almost guarentee a 1 V 1 pre flop.

In that situation, your SC's are favourite against any pocket pair,as you will almost definately have more hand possibilites.

Id want as many players in the pot as possible with sc. This is not the hand I want 1 v 1 and imo you could lose a lot of money playing sc heads up, i cant see how they would be profitable. and if im raising im raising for value/deception not to knock players out.

fuzzbox

Babybing wrote:

Id want as many players in the pot as possible with sc. This is not the hand I want 1 v 1 and imo you could lose a lot of money playing sc heads up, i cant see how they would be profitable. and if im raising im raising for value/deception not to knock players out.

This is a common misconception.

SCs play much better in short pots than in big pots.
You really really really do not want to face off against a bigger flush draw and your bluff equity goes higher.

Gholimoli

bohsman wrote:

I agree, sc against an overpair is 50 50 well worth it.

where do you get this from?
are you joking me?
AA V 78s is 50/50 ?
i assume this is a joke response to the poster who said SC is a Fav against an over pair in which case ignore my post.

Running Bing

Really? How short a pot are you talking? would you fancy sc heads up?

fuzzbox

Under the right circumstances, yes.

You dont get much bluff equity in a multi-way pot, so you have to make the best hand. Playing it Vs one player marked with big cards or a big pair, is much much much easier - if deep, and you have either bluff equity, or implied odds against him.

If shallow - just fold.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

This is a common misconception.

SCs play much better in short pots than in big pots.
You really really really do not want to face off against a bigger flush draw and your bluff equity goes higher.

if by short pots you mean short handed then i would have to disagree again.
your suggesting that a SC have more value HU than high cards which is not true at all and this is no misconception its a fact.

pokypoky

I approach small suited connectors as preflop semibluffing hands ( i know i should say bulffing but it just doesnt feel like that when i play them). As Harrington looks at the second hand on his watch, I look at my hole cards and if there happens to be a 6 4 of hearts its time to raise. I just cant help it. Especially if the game is getting slightly boring. I always need fold equity though, never stand pressure with them preflop and certainly dont think they are ahead of an overpair....lol

BigDragon

bohsman wrote:

I agree, sc against an overpair is 50 50 well worth it.

Unless you are up against Oscar when he has AA as he's had them 9673 times and never lost.

Gholi - yes he is messing.

cardshark202

When pokypoky is in a tourney playing like a total rock, hasn't played a hand in an hour. Then he'll suddenly raise from UTG. You think he's been waiting for AA or KK but no, he has 75 spades.:)

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

if by short pots you mean short handed then i would have to disagree again.
your suggesting that a SC have more value HU than high cards which is not true at all and this is no misconception its a fact.

It most certainly is not a fact.

Culchie

pokypoky wrote:

I approach small suited connectors as preflop semibluffing hands ( i know i should say bulffing but it just doesnt feel like that when i play them). As Harrington looks at the second hand on his watch, I look at my hole cards and if there happens to be a 6 4 of hearts its time to raise. I just cant help it. Especially if the game is getting slightly boring. I always need fold equity though, never stand pressure with them preflop and certainly dont think they are ahead of an overpair....lol

You have to be leaking chips badly here.

Position and stack sizes, i.e Implied Odds are critical to playing SC profitably.

Culchie

cardshark202 wrote:

When pokypoky is in a tourney playing like a total rock, hasn't played a hand in an hour. Then he'll suddenly raise from UTG. You think he's been waiting for AA or KK but no, he has 75 spades.:)

or Q8o

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

It most certainly is not a fact.

can you explian how SC plays better agianst two over cards HU than agianst 3 or 4 limpers?

pokypoky

cardshark202 wrote:

When pokypoky is in a tourney playing like a total rock, hasn't played a hand in an hour. Then he'll suddenly raise from UTG. You think he's been waiting for AA or KK but no, he has 75 spades.:)

haha so true, then i show, everyone starts saying hey this guy is a maniac whats he up to....fishcake, next hand aces. My advertising campaign may be expensive but it works

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

can you explian how SC plays better agianst two over cards HU than agianst 3 or 4 limpers?

I already did.

Its not always about making the best hand. This is not limit poker.

pokypoky

Culchie wrote:

You have to be leaking chips badly here.

Position and stack sizes, i.e Implied Odds are critical to playing SC profitably.

Yeah true Culchie. I do leak chips because of it, but I dont raise every time I have low suited connectors...that would be too sick. I just pick periods to attack with them, the problem is its like attacking with an inflatable hammer, the challenge is to convince people the hammer is real. seriously. Its real.

bohsman

Gholimoli wrote:

can you explian how SC plays better agianst two over cards HU than agianst 3 or 4 limpers?

If youre shortstacked in a tournament and push with 78s you only want one caller.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

I already did.

Its not always about making the best hand. This is not limit poker.

i read your long post about the 1,2,3 fact . i agree with the post completely.
How ever your implied odds are much higher when multi way. I understand what your saying about bluff equity and how its reduced when the amount of players increases in a hand. however i think that is more than made up for by the implied odds of making your hand and getting paid.
same with small PP .i much rather playing them in multi way pot because the chances of the board giving other ppl a hand that they are willing to pay me with (when i hit my set) increases as the number of opponents grows.

Gholimoli

bohsman wrote:

If youre shortstacked in a tournament and push with 78s you only want one caller.

That’s not the normal play of SC being discussed here. in this situation no matter what two cards you have you want less callers because the chances of your hand ending up the best hand is greater when there are less people to compete against.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

i read your long post about the 1,2,3 fact . i agree with the post completely.
How ever your implied odds are much higher when multi way. I understand what your saying about bluff equity and how its reduced when the amount of players increases in a hand. however i think that is more than made up for by the implied odds of making your hand and getting paid.
same with small PP .i much rather playing them in multi way pot because the chances of the board giving other ppl a hand that they are willing to pay me with (when i hit my set) increases as the number of opponents grows.

Players play much more carefully in a multi-way pot than in a short-handed pot (2/3). This should reduce your implied odds.

SCs are different than pairs. Pairs either make the (almost certainly) best hand on the flop (a set), or they do not. Thus, the number of players increasing is good - because you dont really need to bluff with them often to make them profitable.

SCs, you tend to flop draws, or one crappy pair. These can bleed off more chips, unless you can gain bluff equity from somewhere to somehow change this.

ntlbell

ianmc38

ntlbell wrote:

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Players play much more carefully in a multi-way pot than in a short-handed pot (2/3). This should reduce your implied odds.

SCs are different than pairs. Pairs either make the (almost certainly) best hand on the flop (a set), or they do not. Thus, the number of players increasing is good - because you dont really need to bluff with them often to make them profitable.

SCs, you tend to flop draws, or one crappy pair. These can bleed off more chips, unless you can gain bluff equity from somewhere to somehow change this.

you dont have to bluff to make up for the missing odds .
You don’t have to be able to bluff to make up for missing odds.
The more players in the hand the bigger the pot ,the better odds your getting .post-flop when some one bets, the more players in the pot the more chances of some else calling that bet, making the pot bigger and giving you the required odds you need to chase your draw.

fuzzbox

Believe what you wish.

pokypoky

Gholimoli wrote:

you dont have to bluff to make up for the missing odds .
You don’t have to be able to bluff to make up for missing odds.
The more players in the hand the bigger the pot ,the better odds your getting .post-flop when some one bets, the more players in the pot the more chances of some else calling that bet, making the pot bigger and giving you the required odds you need to chase your draw.

I think this is a matter of how the individual plays their suited connectors. It would be wrong to play small suited connectors for their value alone, but the issue here is how much emphasis you place on bluffing equity. The more bluffing equity you need for your style of playing small scs to be successful the less people you want in the pot with you. Sometimes I like to sneak in under the radar with them, other times I barge into the pot representing with a view to bluffing...here i want no callers.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Believe what you wish.

FastMachine

pokypoky wrote:

I think I have a problem. I was thinking of the major weaknesses in my game recently and discovered that i have a poky illness that seems incurable. The problem is that I'm finding it hard to lay low suited connectors down. They always hold so much promise for an optimist such as myself. Thw lower the better...

I have no problem with playing them because in the right situation they are delicious hands but playing them to raises or raising utg on an agressive table is too expensive to justify the thrill i get from occasionally flopping the nuts and watching with delight as the overpair stakes his tank on the assumption that i wouldnt raise with such crap. That heady mix of extreme embarrassment and uncontrollable delight can be quite addictive.

My question is what people think of opening and calling raises with low suited connectors? Can it ever be justified?

I'd only raise with suited (and one gap) connectors from the cutoff or button and only every so often to mix it up a bit. I'd usually try and take the pot with a bluff on the flop and if I'm called check for my draw (if I have one) or maybe fire off another bluff if a high card comes on the turn and I feel my opponent is weak.

I don't call raises out of position with them unless there's a good few people in the pot and I can flop a great draw. Against one opponent, you'll end up folding these hands probably 80% of the time on the flop. The rest of the time you'll bleed off chips on bad value draws and now and again you'll hit your draw and get paid. I think long-term, they suck alot of money out of you for little return. I much prefer set-mining to playing suited connectors, at least with a pp you're out cheap if you miss, sc's on the other hand could cost you more if you hit (a good draw) than if you miss.
I'd call against one opponent with position if they are frequently raising with less than premium hands and you could use some folding equity against them.
Generally I'm not a big fan of sc's.

SilverFox261

ianmc38 wrote:

What planet are you on?

I must remember next time i have 34s that i'm a big fave against the rockets heads up.

This is the first time i have had a chance to post in a few days. In response to this, i have a few things to say:

1: your rockets will ALWAYS be a favourite hand pre-flop, but you seem to be forgetting that when you have a pocket pair, you are playing to make a set. So, once the flop hits, if you don't grab an ace, you could be up against anything. If you hit nothing, you could be up against anyting...

2: Even if an ace hits, and you make your set, heres the catch.... and ace on the flop with any 2 other cards of different value GUARENTEES a potential straight. It will be either
a)potential run to the ace
b)potential run to the 5
c)potential mid card run

3: You can drop SC's a hell of alot easier than pocket rockets

So, your aces, while a great starting hand, can get you in a hell of alot of trouble. my love for SC's comes from point 2. you may disagree, but the number of times ive bled my opponents dry in this senario is rediculous

brianmc

I've just bookmarked this thread in anticipation...

Culchie

SilverFox261 wrote:

This is the first time i have had a chance to post in a few days. In response to this, i have a few things to say:

1: your rockets will ALWAYS be a favourite hand pre-flop, but you seem to be forgetting that when you have a pocket pair, you are playing to make a set. So, once the flop hits, if you don't grab an ace, you could be up against anything. If you hit nothing, you could be up against anyting...

2: Even if an ace hits, and you make your set, heres the catch.... and ace on the flop with any 2 other cards of different value GUARENTEES a potential straight. It will be either
a)potential run to the ace
b)potential run to the 5
c)potential mid card run

3: You can drop SC's a hell of alot easier than pocket rockets

So, your aces, while a great starting hand, can get you in a hell of alot of trouble. my love for SC's comes from point 2. you may disagree, but the number of times ive bled my opponents dry in this senario is rediculous

If there was a flashing red light 'emocion' thingy, I would use it now.

kincsem

I like to flick small suited connectors into the muck. They get there faster. But JT, QJ, KQ, AK suited are a lot different. You can make a respectable pair and have a class kicker.

pokypoky

SilverFox261 wrote:

This is the first time i have had a chance to post in a few days. In response to this, i have a few things to say:

1: your rockets will ALWAYS be a favourite hand pre-flop, but you seem to be forgetting that when you have a pocket pair, you are playing to make a set. So, once the flop hits, if you don't grab an ace, you could be up against anything. If you hit nothing, you could be up against anyting...

2: Even if an ace hits, and you make your set, heres the catch.... and ace on the flop with any 2 other cards of different value GUARENTEES a potential straight. It will be either
a)potential run to the ace
b)potential run to the 5
c)potential mid card run

3: You can drop SC's a hell of alot easier than pocket rockets

So, your aces, while a great starting hand, can get you in a hell of alot of trouble. my love for SC's comes from point 2. you may disagree, but the number of times ive bled my opponents dry in this senario is rediculous

Why hasn't anyone brutalised this post yet? At least I can see my love of SC's as irrational but man u are just deluded if you love them more than the rockets. I think we need to set up a support group...the scary thing is there are people out there who need it more than me!

DubTony

Maybe nobody cares anymore, or more likely, some of the guys here are hoping to meet SilverFox at the tables

Gholimoli

SilverFox261 wrote:

This is the first time i have had a chance to post in a few days. In response to this, i have a few things to say:

1: your rockets will ALWAYS be a favourite hand pre-flop, but you seem to be forgetting that when you have a pocket pair, you are playing to make a set. So, once the flop hits, if you don't grab an ace, you could be up against anything. If you hit nothing, you could be up against anyting...

2: Even if an ace hits, and you make your set, heres the catch.... and ace on the flop with any 2 other cards of different value GUARENTEES a potential straight. It will be either
a)potential run to the ace
b)potential run to the 5
c)potential mid card run

3: You can drop SC's a hell of alot easier than pocket rockets

So, your aces, while a great starting hand, can get you in a hell of alot of trouble. my love for SC's comes from point 2. you may disagree, but the number of times ive bled my opponents dry in this senario is rediculous

are you joking with this?
folks remember to drop your aces post flop if any one stays in the hand with you to see the flop.AA is only a starting hand.

however you can carry on with AA post flop sometimes but make sure you drop them if god forbid you see another A on the flop cuz thats it .there is str possible and ....
i love to play againt you as im sure does any one who read this post and knows anything about poker.(second thought they dont actually have know anything about poker to find this post funny)

califano

Didnt SilverFox win a Drogheda ticket along with sleepypriest last nite?.

ianmc38

rounders123 wrote:

Didnt SilverFox win a Drogheda ticket along with sleepypriest last nite?.

What was last night?

califano

Yeah last nite. The satts are on 10pm now so its getting more runners. 2 tickets and $30 for 3rd.