the Irish on BBC - British for a day?

flogen

This is something that has always gotten my goat to some degree; sure it's partly silly nationalism but I think it's a valid point to make all the same; what's the deal with Irish presenters on British TV saying "we" or "us" or "our" when referring to British things?
Just after watching the Bigger Picture with Graham Norton and in the space of half an hour he made 3 references to his Britishness (can't recall the first, but he referred to "our Royal family" and Miss Great Britain "representing us at Miss World"). On Mock The Week Dara O Brien (who did a great job of rejecting the british-we on Test the Nation before) did something similar, on the e4 extra for Brat Camp Liz Bonham made reference to "us back home in Britain" etc.
It's also something that Terry Wogan has made a career from with the Eurovision.
I can accept it when English born footballers who played for Ireland (Mark Larenson) say "we" when referring to England and Ireland, but I don't get this stuff.

I'm not saying that they're a disgrace or anything stupid like that, they can say what they want, but why would you say you were from a country you're not from? I wouldn't expect an English presenter hired by RTE to say "we" when referring to Ireland, so I don't get it... I wonder if it's part of the deal or something...

/rant

arbeitsscheuer

A lot of it's down to residence.

Me, I was born in London, lived here most of my life. I confuse everyone cos I use "we" flexibly to denote Ireland/Irish and England/English (and maybe Arsenal/Gooners:D ) whenever and wherever the ocassion suits me.

I take your point, and I'm sure it must be irritating but... Well, it's not really your business is it? Wogan, Norton, O'Briain and Bonham can say "we" whenever they like, to denote any people's they feel akin to. To argue against that or try to restrain it would be draconian to say the least...

Laguna

Does it really bother you that much?, admittedly what you say is true, but who cares?, people like Terry Wogan and Des Lynam;two Irishmen who do what you are talking about, have lived so long in England and their whole life/opportunities given to them by England - maybe they genuinely see themselves as English, I read an interview in the paper a few years back with Graham Norton and this particular question was broached, he responded candidly by saying Ireland never did anything for him and England (not the country, but the English media) had given him the life he had now..

My dad and his twin brother are another example, they emigrated to England after college, my dad came back to Ireland when he was 43 after 20 odd years in England, his brother not long after.. after spending all of their twenties and thirties there, do you not think it natural they would develop *some* affinity to a country where they lived, met their wives, had children and worked for so long a time?..

Not every Irish person who to the UK is like Roy Keane, a man who went to Nottingham Forest as a young lad, made millions but isn't small enough to shy away from calling Mick McCarthy an English **** in 2002, the piece of **** obviously has a short memory on two accounts.. one for the fact his employers are Englisg and two for the reason Mick McCarthy played for Ireland numerous times on account of his IRISH heritage..

Lump

It's a job.... if they said, THOSE BRITISH ROYAL ****ERS, they wouldn't work too long.

grumpytrousers

It's all about target audience. The people watching these programmes are, for the most part, British and thus expect the presenter to have the same sort of cultural reference points. Now - I realise that if you're sitting in Ireland watching Dara O'Brian (winner of Gael Linn Debates, erstwhile hurler and pretty much all around "Irish" man) refer to residents of, dunno, Walthamstow as 'us' it does jar a bit on the ear.

On the other hand, the alternative would be for him to refer to the 'target audience' as 'you lot'. Now - I worked in the UK enough to enjoy that kind of thing with my mates in the pub, but solely as a means of blaming them for 800 years of oppression

Pigman II

flogen wrote:

I can accept it when English born footballers who played for Ireland (Mark Larenson) say "we" when referring to England and Ireland, but I don't get this stuff.

Actually in fairnes to Lawro I've noticed of late that he has started refering to 'Eire' as 'we' and specifically saying 'you' when the panel on Football Focus are discussing matters of the English national team.

So I guess that's almost the reverse of what your issue is.

flogen

Laguna wrote:

Does it really bother you that much?, admittedly what you say is true, but who cares?, people like Terry Wogan and Des Lynam;two Irishmen who do what you are talking about, have lived so long in England and their whole life/opportunities given to them by England - maybe they genuinely see themselves as English, I read an interview in the paper a few years back with Graham Norton and this particular question was broached, he responded candidly by saying Ireland never did anything for him and England (not the country, but the English media) had given him the life he had now..

My dad and his twin brother are another example, they emigrated to England after college, my dad came back to Ireland when he was 43 after 20 odd years in England, his brother not long after.. after spending all of their twenties and thirties there, do you not think it natural they would develop *some* affinity to a country where they lived, met their wives, had children and worked for so long a time?..

Not every Irish person who to the UK is like Roy Keane, a man who went to Nottingham Forest as a young lad, made millions but isn't small enough to shy away from calling Mick McCarthy an English **** in 2002, the piece of **** obviously has a short memory on two accounts.. one for the fact his employers are Englisg and two for the reason Mick McCarthy played for Ireland numerous times on account of his IRISH heritage..

It doesn't bother me that much, was more something I have seen a lot lately and thought I'd ask around about.
The fact is the people can say what they want to say; they can call themselves whatever they like and it really is none of my business, but it's just something that I wanted to post about; I never said it was a disgrace, I never suggested they were selling anyone out, not even themselves and I never said they weren't free to do it, it's just something I don't understand.
Fair enough, Lynam and Wogan have had all of their fame on English TV, even the likes of Norton has too, but Dara O'Brien is only really starting to get some proper UK work, but has been doing the rounds for years.
And fair enough if England has given you all the chances in the world where Ireland hasn't, that's a result of the way Irish media operates; for me personally it wouldn't be something I'd change nationality over.
Anyway, I can understand what you're saying as regards living there for a long time, but I suppose it's a matter of incident. My Nannies entire family moved to England nearly 50 years ago and after recently speaking to her brother he still refered to people living in the country as "The English" and not "we"; same for my Aunt (or his sister); I guess it depends on the person.

Lump wrote:

It's a job.... if they said, THOSE BRITISH ROYAL ****ERS, they wouldn't work too long.

Well, they wouldn't have to go that far; I'm not saying they should act like a bunch of Shinners!
I can gather that it's target audience and saying You English wouldn't work when you're on an English Channel, with english guests, english topics and an english audience, but, for example where Norton said "our Royal family", saying "the Royal family" would have been the exact same, in fact most British people say the instead of our in that case (possibly because in most topics of conversation in Britain and even Ireland you're unlikely to be talking about any other royal family).

As I said, it's not a big deal, it's not something that I'd hold against a person, and as I said it's a small bit of silly nationalism coming out in me; perhaps it's tied to the way that sometimes people like Bono and Colin Farrell are claimed as English by people, so when the Irish do it themselves it's a bit annoying.

mickd

I believe if you are working in Britain, the british taxpayer is paying your wages then you should identify with the cultural reference points of the country where your are making a living. It would be ignorant to do otherwise. Can you imagine an English person broadcasting for RTE refering to us as you people. Well done to all the Irish people who have beat the well trodden path to British media and done us proud. With reference to Roy Keane that argument is fatuous he did most of talking on the pitch, he is not a broadcaster.

flogen

mickd wrote:

I believe if you are working in Britain, the british taxpayer is paying your wages then you should identify with the cultural reference points of the country where your are making a living. It would be ignorant to do otherwise. Can you imagine an English person broadcasting for RTE refering to us as you people. Well done to all the Irish people who have beat the well trodden path to British media and done us proud. With reference to Roy Keane that argument is fatuous he did most of talking on the pitch, he is not a broadcaster.

As I said, there are plenty of ways to make reference to British culture without distancing yourself too far or claiming it as your own; but I assume these presenters are capable enough of making their own minds up and have done so.

DMC

It depends a lot on your circumstance and also the people you are around. Take your aunt, for example; who is to say that she might change her tone when in English company? Was she playing up to the audience, knowing what the reaction would be?

But also on weather or not you want to be seen as become integrated into the society and be accepted as "one of their own" in the media. As another poster correctly said, if they pay you good money, its a good enough reason not to piss off the general public.

BTW, one of the reasons why Wogan, Lynam and Eamonn Andrews were so successful with the BBC and the British public, was that they didn't have a distinctive class accent, by that I mean, they didn't have a proper formal "BBC" tone of voice, but yet it was impossible to nail down where they were from, so discrimination would be less. A brilliant neutral tone. That has long since gone, but it would still be the reason Hector will never be successful in the UK!

Pigman II

DMC wrote:

it would still be the reason Hector will never be successful in the UK!

yes... thats the reason

Genghis

I wonder is just because we are Irish that we have this problem?

Britain is multicultural, it is perfectly valid for someone who was not born into that society but who later became part of it to say 'we' in any context. They belong there, arguably more so than a natural Englishman given their profile and position within that society.

Perhaps you are viewing belonging to a country as being unilateral - lots of people consider themselves twin citizens of different countries. I would be concerned if Wogan, Norton, Lynam, Keane, etc began to refer to us as 'them'. That is the acid test for me.

On the Roy Keane thing, I don't dispute what he called McCarthy, but he has stated that he feels at home in England, is married to an Englishwoman, believes his children to be English (at least in part), and is very grateful to England. He was actually very concerned at offending ordinary english folk with the remark (which he targetted specifically at Mick). But thats another long story, eh?

Pigman II

Genghis wrote:

On the Roy Keane thing, I don't dispute what he called McCarthy, but he has stated that he feels at home in England, is married to an Englishwoman, believes his children to be English (at least in part), and is very grateful to England. He was actually very concerned at offending ordinary english folk with the remark (which he targetted specifically at Mick). But thats another long story, eh?

Keanes a great one for questioning other peoples national allegiances. He should take a good at himself in future before he thinks of doing it again.

BuffyBot

Honest to sweet baby Jesus..what a thread.

Elmo

The worst has to be Amanda "Ireland Am" Whatsherface.

She continued to talk to Sharon Osbourne about how we are so much different to the Americans. She was also referring to Actor and Actress from Ireland as British. :mad:

But in saying that last night Gramham Norton made a refference to Ireland in one of his jokes about 50c that he is called Trity Tree Pence (An Irish Mispronounation).

Also Amanda "Face of Heatons" Whatsherface and her mole are just plain annoying :mad:

mike65

I think there are many factors at work most have been covered. Its where they live, its where they work, its thier main audience. Like SebtheBum I'm a blow in but have lived here most of my life and sometimes I still don't know whether I'm coming or going!

Mike.

Elmo

I think there are many factors at work most have been covered. Its where they live, its where they work, its thier main audience. Like SebtheBum I'm a blow in but have lived here most of my life and sometimes I still don't know whether I'm coming or going!

Amanda "The Swan" Whatsherface works and lives in LA. Is she not american?

arbeitsscheuer

Elmo wrote:

Amanda "The Swan" Whatsherface works and lives in LA. Is she not american?

If that's what she'd prefer to think of herself as - Yes, she is.

If she prefers to think of herself as Irish - then no, she's not.

akaanon

flogen wrote:

what's the deal with Irish presenters on British TV saying "we" or "us" or "our" when referring to British things?

Have you traveled much or lived abroad for a while?
If you have this might not be an issue for you? Dara O Briain, etc are making a living. They are working in a foreign country making enough money for them to live a better live over there or maybe eventually over here.

simu

Some get away with it, others less so. Using "us" etc would suit Graham Norton's TV personality because it's uber-cheesy whereas it would seem plain weird to me to hear that from Dara Ó Briain tbh.

lostexpectation

cos graham had cristina ricci on his show last week

HelterSkelter

I think you're nitpicking there. He's working for a British station with a British audience. There is nothing wrong with saying "we". Do you think Jack Charlton should not have referred to the Irish team as we when he was manager?

Ruu_Old

Heres a good one...

KATE THORNTON:
Now lets talk about Colin because in the UK he’s become the man of the moment.

SAMUEL L.JACKSON:
Really? Only in the UK?

KT: Well everywhere but we kind of claim him as our own because he’s from Ireland.

SLJ: You can’t claim him because he’s from Ireland.

KT: Well we do because it’s close by. (laughter)

SLJ: Ok. That’s the source of all the conflict over there. You people always claiming the Irish as yours. We got a little problem just like that here called slavery but that’s ok we don’t need to talk about that so lets go. (more laughter)

KT: Well Colin is a very well paid slave.

SLJ: Ok good.

KT: As are you.

SLJ: Yeah all right.

mike65

Did that actually happen? Anne Patridge rules ok.

Mike.

lostexpectation

http://taint.org/2003/12/16/205657a.html

my estimation of kate thorntorn just went way down

mike65

I just googled her name as I could'nt put a face to it. Now I know who she is all is explained. Blonde fluff. She got done by Chris Morris on the Brass Eye
paedophile classic.

Mike.

DublinWriter

flogen wrote:

It's also something that Terry Wogan has made a career from with the Eurovision.

I remember Terry Wogan commenting on the Eurovision some 10 years ago and beginning a comment with "We British...".

The question is, why are we so sensitive about this in the first place?

Maybe these people define themselves as Irish and British in the same way that English people see themselves and English and British.

Without invoking the wraith of the average armchair-republican who'll invoke Pearse at the drop of a (bowler!) hat, I'd suggest that being Irish and British aren't mutually exclusive concepts. If you really want a united Ireland then you'll have to embrace this concept.

Meanwhile, back on topic, I found it disgraceful when around 1995 I saw Gloria Honeyford and Henry Kelly do a skit on Riverdance where they Irish dancing and pretending to be drilling a road at the same time.

Pigman II

DublinWriter wrote:

Meanwhile, back on topic, I found it disgraceful when around 1995 I saw Gloria Honeyford and Henry Kelly do a skit on Riverdance where they Irish dancing and pretending to be drilling a road at the same time.

haha, now that's something I wish I'd seen.

doh.ie

Elmo wrote:

Also Amanda "Face of Heatons" Whatsherface and her mole are just plain annoying :mad:

LOL! She's also guilty of the British "we" business on her coverage of the Oscars on Sky Movies and Sky News last night. She spoke to Kiera Knightley about how "We're very proud, everyone back home is very proud." Everyone in Ireland? No, that's not what you meant... I'd let it go once or twice, but she was at it at EVERY link!

Now, I'm not too bothered about the examples above, but in this day and age, the BBC and more specifically Sky (because they seek to expand their audience in Ireland), should ask their presenters to be more inclusive, especially when the presenter themselves is Irish!

The presenters probably feel they'll get more work if they can flawless become "British", but if the concept of having an Irish accented presenter working on a particular show is to portray a wider inclusivity, the presenter shouldn't have to pretend to be something they're not.

Ruu_Old

It was always the case when Eddie Irvine was in F1, when he won..he was the great Brit, when he lost or crashed or got in a fight...he was the crazy Irishman!

Rockee

It kinda gets to me too I must admit! One day I was watching golf on Sky Sports and Padraig Harrington was (a) 'One of Britains finest golfers' and (b) his name was as always mispronounced. It just niggled me that much that I emailed Sky Sports sporting department and I got a reply saying that my email was passed on to the commentating team. Again like the OP Im not a crazy up the RA person or anything but I think we've lived in Britains shadow for too long and we should let people know who we are.

mike65

Ah well claiming someone from de repuberlic as a Brit is just silly. Thats like claiming Ronald Regan was Irish.

Mike.

lostexpectation

doh.ie wrote:

The presenters probably feel they'll get more work if they can flawless become "British", but if the concept of having an Irish accented presenter working on a particular show is to portray a wider inclusivity, the presenter shouldn't have to pretend to be something they're not.

amanda was on richard and judy talking about the oscars and actually i think richard picked her up on that, and that she was developing an american accent, which in turn she put on the oirish accent and talked about having a pint.

anybody catch the Irish episode of the relic hunter the other day, it was very 'ascendancy'

doh.ie

lostexpectation wrote:

amanda was on richard and judy talking about the oscars and actually i think richard picked her up on that, and that she was developing an american accent, which in turn she put on the oirish accent and talked about having a pint.

Seems she can be all things to all people at the flick of a switch.

lostexpectation wrote:

anybody catch the Irish episode of the relic hunter the other day, it was very 'ascendancy'

Basically, the lesson from Relic Hunter's Irish episode is that when you want to film in France, but pretend you're in Ireland, you need a) copious Irish licence plates, most Monaghan ones for some reason b) some donkeys and carts c) a dingy old pub in which to have lots of Guinness signs and a bar fight d) people wearing aran sweaters in summer e) bad Americans and Germans doing wonky Irish accents.

So about as real as when Murder She Wrote, Remington Steele or Voyager were set in Ireland!

By the way, to you guys with the Real Republican signatures, fair play to ye -I'm too lazy to have a signature, but I love where you're going with that one.

Elmo

Thank God Amanda whatsherface was born in London.

I don't have to be so embarrest by her.

JohnnySideburns

According to Wikipedia.org, Graham Norton grew up "as part of the minority Protestant community" in Bandon, Co Cork. This possibly (and only possibly) suggests that he may come from an old Southern Unionist family and hence may explain his "West Brit" features.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Norton

Also according to Wikipedia.org, Terry Wogan (or Tanny Wogan, as I like to call him), when interviewing Irish film censor Frank Hall on BBC's Saturday Live in 1981, was accused by Frank of "selling out of his Irishness" on live televison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Wogan

My own opinion is that while I understand that the British public will not tune into someone who displays Irish Brit Hating Republicanism*, these references to "We" and "Our" could be easily avoided and hence they say what they say by choice. In my opinion, they are both Judas'.

(* extreme sarcastic example)

Elmo

While the woman was born in London I am remind of how ****ing annoying she is.

Her moveable "I am so wonderful" mole needs to be put down.

ivan087

in terms of dara, terry, mark, et al making reference to 'us' instead of 'them', i really dont mind, especially when you have lived in the country for so long.

but what really gets to me is the way the republic of ireland always gets into the top 100 british people of the year, best british actors, etc, or the way we are always known as a 'home nation' in sport. i dont mind it with rugby as northern ireland is a home nation to the UK, but the republic of ireland (soccer) is not a home nation!

this is not a nationalist rant, because i am far from being a nationalist. however, i do have some pride in my nation and when a band like U2 are being refered to as 'the best british band since the beatles' it really does hit a nerve.

more then anything, it just seems very ignorant by some elements of the british media, both tv and print.

Elmo

in terms of dara, terry, mark, et al making reference to 'us' instead of 'them', i really dont mind, especially when you have lived in the country for so long.

Daragh (sp?) was host of The Panel while living in london, yet he was Irish on the Panel.

I don't think they have to state them over their when they are on British TV. But they could say that they find it odd over here in Britian when .......

Who's Mark?

i dont mind it with rugby as northern ireland is a home nation to the UK, but the republic of ireland (soccer) is not a home nation!

So they have 20% of a nation and its a home nation? Could they please stop sing that Phil Coulter **** at the start of matches. PLEASE.

The british can have Phil ****ing Coulter.