When should the FAIR march be rescheduled for?

murphaph

We live in a democracy and our democratically elected government and the Gardai who report to that government deemed the march yesterday to be quite legal. The democratic will of the population at large was stopped from happening by two or three hundred people. This is patently unnacceptable in a democracy and the march must be rescheduled and proceed as was planned. Of course when this happens, a massive Garda/Civil Defence/Army presence must be felt all along the route, lining it completely. Other measures need to be taken also, such as having the water canon on standby and so on. We must not let a tiny minority of the population tell the rest of us what can and cannot happen in our own city. I'd suggest waiting until O'Connell Street is complete before we reschedule the march. Every decent citizen should be in attendance to show these FAIR/Loyalists and the world that regardless of whether or not we approve of their ways, we will not tolerate intolerance on our streets and will not let mob rule dictate our way of life.

Sir Oxman

No. I do not want that class of people marching through Dublin.

The rioters/looters are scum but think of this - those Loyalists were onto a winner whatever happened yesterday - if they marched they would crow and bleat that they could march through the capital of Ireland so why not be allowed march through Nationalist areas in the North? What's the big deal they would say...rioting trouble and they would say look, look we told you what the south is like...

I'll be honest and say I haven't had the time to research these 'Love Ulster' people but I will. I've heard that many stories about the organiser etc and their ethos that I would be initially suspicious of their motives.

A march for all victims of the troubles (North/South/Britain/Europe) should go ahead, no bloody flag waving or drums beating - why just one side, are Nationalist or non-aligned victims somehow of less value?

Tell you what, when a load of Nationalist/Republicans representing their victims can go up to the Shankill and parade with bands and Tricolours, then I may agree with you.

A demonstration in rememberance of ALL victims of the Northern bloodlust would make more sense

The 'rioters', each and everyone of them should be penalised to the full extent of the law - there are plentyn of photos and video footage including a set of pics showing very brave 'men' beating up an Asian shopworker outside Centra on Portland Row.

Maskhadov

I was disapointed to see the violance. I hope another day can be rescheduled and proper security procedures can be put in place.

lifegamer

I just wanna say that FAIR knew all too well that there prescence would cause a scene like that yesterday. They'd be the ones pelting republicans with bricks if we were waving tricolours up shankhill.

What's worse is that the government knew this would also happen and they failed to pre-empt the riots from happening. Sinn Fein should have made a statement in advance asking people to act civilised during the march, as they should know the kind of reaction the march was going to get. My opinion is that whoever signed for or agreed to this march should resign over this fiasco as no preventative measures were made until it was too late. It was blatantly obvious that people were going to cause trouble at such a contreversial march.

Also worse is the fact the constructuion company neglected to removed basically unprotected tools and materials from the street and therefore gave these people fuel for their fire so to speak and they should be fined at least and made accountable for what happened. Anyone with half a brain would have known to take the construction materials away, yet for some reason they didn't.

A demonstration in rememberance of ALL victims of the Northern bloodlust would make more sense

I agree....

murphaph

Yeah yeah, hindsight is always 20-20, SIAC are not gonna be fined, nor should they be, for the actions of the mob. This thread is not about whether or not you like or dislike FAIR/OO/Lambeg Drums, it's about US and the fact that OUR democracy was interfered with in a most base way by the mob. We cannot sit back and let them 'win'. Society can't afford to send the message to the mob that we will lie down and take their orders. The march must proceed for OUR democracy's sake and we must all support it taking place, even if we don't support it's aims.

gurramok

No, this march by extremists should not be allowed again. The organiser Willie Frazier and his cohorts is linked to loyalist terrorists even that he was refused a gun licence by the PSNI beacuse of his background

I and many thousands like yesterday will be out protesting peacefully if it does plus it will attract the local scum element to destroy our city again.

Murphaph, do you honestly think the cost of a huge security operation to allow extremists march is worth our taxes?

Sarsfield

If Republicans are allowed march in Dublin then so should Unionists. How many marches have there been in Dublin highlighting Republican victims of Northern violence? They're a regular event.

In a genuine democracy (something both sides from the NI troubles are yet to get to grips with) both sides should be allowed express their views. A situation where we have only Republican marches and neutral marches is not fair and balanced.

So I fully support another march in the future. I don't agree with the marchers but I support their right to march. Either that or Sinn Fein/all Republicans should agree never to have a protest march in Dublin either.

gurramok wrote:

..do you honestly think the cost of a huge security operation to allow extremists march is worth our taxes?

The cost of not allowing it is a loss of democracy and freedom. Which is the higher cost?

ishmael whale

Looking back on yesterday, I think people are correctly picking up that, if we deem a parade to be lawful, then we have to take measures to enable it to go ahead. We allowed a few hundred goughers to reverse a decision of our legitimate authorities. That's a problem in itself.

Looking forward, clearly some Unionists have correctly seen that they make a powerful point by marching in Dublin, and yesterday made their point powerfully. They can indeed point out firstly that the authorities in the Republic have no objection in principle to them marching past the GPO, and ask why their nationalist neighbours have such a problem. Secondly, they can point out that while the Republic's authorities have no objection to a march, in practice such a march is not possible.

In this reality, Unionists can correctly point out their traditions cannot be protected in a Republic of Ireland context. Even if we recognise them as having the same rights in principle as nationalists, they can point out our inability to protect their rights at street level.

Their points are valid in this context, and the only way forward is to accept this reality. There's no point in pretending that we can avoid this reality by creating some comforting mindset to the effect that the marchers are sectarian bigots themselves who should not be let march. Firstly, there would be no need for democracies to have robust protections of freedoms if dissent was about listening to people you've no fundemental objection to. Freedom and liberty is all about an Orange band in full regalia marching past the GPO with a Union Jack.

Many of us can accept that image. We're secure enough in our own belief in the Republic not to mind seeing the Union Jack flying in our streets. Others are not. They didn't riot yesterday, but they object to the idea of Unionist marching in Dublin and that makes the Unionist case for them. Their essential point is 'they don't want us down there' and they're right.

If we react to them the way they reacted to nationalists in the North, then we're retrospectively vindicating the existance of the Northern state. The Republic will always be half a country until we learn to accept Unionism.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

No, this march by extremists should not be allowed again. The organiser Willie Frazier and his cohorts is linked to loyalist terrorists even that he was refused a gun licence by the PSNI beacuse of his background

You're completely entitled to your opinion on him. I find him abrasive too tbh.

gurramok wrote:

I and many thousands like yesterday will be out protesting peacefully if it does plus it will attract the local scum element to destroy our city again.

There were maybe a few hundred protestors at best, let's not exaggerate here. Poulation of Ireland >4m, protestors ~1000 tops. I recognise your right to pacefully protest of course. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.

gurramok wrote:

Murphaph, do you honestly think the cost of a huge security operation to allow extremists march is worth our taxes?

Yes gurramok I really do. I believe it's a fundamental tenant of our democracy that when the democratically elected government deems an act legal that we abide by that determination and voice our satisfaction/dis-satisfaction at the ballot box. What happened yesterday was an attack on those principles and we as a nation can't stand idly by and let 0.0001% of the population tell us how to live our lives.

Sir Oxman

gurramok wrote:

No, this march by extremists should not be allowed again. The organiser Willie Frazier and his cohorts is linked to loyalist terrorists even that he was refused a gun licence by the PSNI beacuse of his background

I and many thousands like yesterday will be out protesting peacefully if it does plus it will attract the local scum element to destroy our city again.

Murphaph, do you honestly think the cost of a huge security operation to allow extremists march is worth our taxes?

Ah but you see murphaph will point out that Gerry adams et al have been linked to republican terrorists yet are allowed to march through Dublin city - and I can see his point.

Where were the howls of 'save our democracy' when a planned OO march through Dublin in 2000 was scuppered?

Quote from Mr Frazer in 2005:
“If we can parade in Dublin with no bother what is the problem in Northern Ireland?” said Frazer. “It is only when republicans get involved that there is a problem. This shows that people in the south are more tolerant and mature in their attitudes than northern nationalists.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1920441,00.html

As I said in message #1, the "LoveUlster" crowd were onto a winner whatever happened. I don't want my city looking like it did again yesterday to support a group of highly dubious propagandists. Gardai should take this opportunity to clean up the local thugs involved.

Any chance the FAIR crowd and the Nationalist victims groups would align and demand answers together? Nope, thought not.

Binomate

I can't wait for the next march. Next time the real Irish people can show themselve to be more tolerant rather than these scumbags giving them a false representation of Ireland.

gurramok

murphaph wrote:

You're completely entitled to your opinion on him. I find him abrasive too tbh.


There were maybe a few hundred protestors at best, let's not exaggerate here. Poulation of Ireland >4m, protestors ~1000 tops. I recognise your right to pacefully protest of course. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.


Yes gurramok I really do. I believe it's a fundamental tenant of our democracy that when the democratically elected government deems an act legal that we abide by that determination and voice our satisfaction/dis-satisfaction at the ballot box. What happened yesterday was an attack on those principles and we as a nation can't stand idly by and let 0.0001% of the population tell us how to live our lives.

Where u there yesterday?..I was.

There were a few hundred yobs among a few thousand on O'Connell St.
Many people who joined never even knew an Orange march was happening due to the lack of publicity.
There will be more protesters next time as the publicity it will generate bring yet more yobbos with any grievance onto the street.
Your naieve to think that our wonderful gardai can control a riot when they cannot even control vast swathes of everyday lawless Dublin.

Sarsfield wrote:

The cost of not allowing it is a loss of democracy and freedom. Which is the higher cost?

The freedom to march and hate another group of people?
The cost of allowing an incitement to hate march through is not worth the price. (FYI the marchers preach hate of another group called catholic)
Many Dubs do not want Northern problems coming to Dublin.

lostexpectation

NEVER!

not those love ulster bigots anyway.

mike65

I suggest sometime around April 15th.

Mike.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

Where u there yesterday?..I was.

No I wasn't.

gurramok wrote:

There were a few hundred yobs among a few thousand on O'Connell St.
Many people who joined never even knew an Orange march was happening due to the lack of publicity.

Even if it was 10,000 gurramok, it would still have been a fraction of the national population.

gurramok wrote:

There will be more protesters next time as the publicity it will generate bring yet more yobbos with any grievance onto the street.

Possibly true, but are we as a society going to bow to yobbos with grievances (read: thieves stealing from parked cars etc.)?

gurramok wrote:

Your naieve to think that our wonderful gardai can control a riot when they cannot even control vast swathes of everyday lawless Dublin.

They can in sufficient numbers and with the support of civil defence and the military if needs be, coupled with ordinary decent people who support our democracy and don't walk all over it, coming out on the streets to show they support our democracy.

gurramok wrote:

The freedom to march and hate another group of people?

This is just your opinion of FAIR and the OO etc. which you are entitled to, but you are not entitled to tell me or the rest of society that they can't march when our democratically elected government who represent us, have said they are. I have little in common with many of them either btw.

gurramok wrote:

The cost of allowing an incitement to hate march through is not worth the price. (FYI the marchers preach hate of another group called catholic)
Many Dubs do not want Northern problems coming to Dublin.

Who would be incited to hate? The mindless yobs who destroyed ordinaru citizens' property yesterday? They hardly need any incitement gurramok. If dubs don't want northern problems, then they will have to tell our government to stop any interference with the north. So long as our government continues to dabble in northern affairs then we have to accept northern problems.

axer

Murphaph, since you are so in favour of "Democracy", please answer these questions that you have attempted to avoid here.

Should the KKK be allowed march through Harlem? If such a march was allowed would you expect it to go through peacefully?

murphaph

Axer, give up on the KKK through Harlem question. I'm not gonna answer it because it's pathetic and irrelevant whatabboutery. OUR government who WE elect decided the FAIR march would be legal. A mob decided that our votes count for nothing and that the decision of OUR government didn't suit them.

Back on topic,
I'd imagine a summer date might bring more unionists south, though many may stay away even if invited given what has happened.

axer

murphaph wrote:

Axer, give up on the KKK through Harlem question. I'm not gonna answer it because it's pathetic and irrelevant whatabboutery. OUR government who WE elect decided the FAIR march would be legal. A mob decided that our votes count for nothing and that the decision of OUR government didn't suit them.

Back on topic,
I'd imagine a summer date might bring more unionists south, though many may stay away even if invited given what has happened.

Not answering the question is hypocritical. It is not irrelevant - it is in fact very relevant. You say that in a democracy people should be allowed freedom of speech, then why will you not answer the question which I will pose to you again as it is a question about freedom of speech in a democracy.

Should the KKK be allowed march through Harlem? If such a march was allowed would you expect it to go through peacefully?

If you will not answer this question then I think you should shut up about democracy, freedom of speech and the right of ANY legal organisation to to freedom of speech as it makes you a hypocrite.

hmmm

Ignore the provo apologists on this thread. Your assumption on the thread is correct - the government of this state authorised the parade/demonstration. As a state we failed in our duty to allow this parade to pass off peacefully, and it would be shameful if we allowed a bunch of thugs and bigots to dictate what can be done on our streets.

The content of the parade is irrelevent - it was approved, and we should make sure it goes ahead.

shuushh

i dont understand why they need Union Jacks and marching bands to protest,
its a silly march that doesn't really have much of a point to it and it is designed with the sole intent to provoke people with republican feelings but sure as you said we live in a democratic society so I will give them their march and I would be willing to attend the protest and stick up for their right to protest in our capital city

and also another thing now that we Dubliners have seen what rioting looks like when its right on your doorstep I think it will show us how pathethic and disgusting those rioting against the publication of cartoons is aswell

Sam Vimes

if the next march is by the FAIR group then i'm all for it. ill go out and stand on the sidelines and support them all the way. of course i'd prefer if they let in all victims of violence rather than just one side.

but this march wasn't for victims of violence and we all know it. they wanted to march through our streets to show how much they hate us. as william shatner says "i can't get behind that"

Sand

Should the KKK be allowed march through Harlem? If such a march was allowed would you expect it to go through peacefully?

Yes, assuming the parade and its content did not breach laws against incitement of hatred or incitement to violence. Neo-Nazis and the KKK regularly march in the US and Europe.

Would it go through peacefully? Probably counter demonstrators would attempt to visit violence upon marchers they hate, but law enforcement would and do police these marches and arrest rioters. Again, freedom implies the right to disagree and the state is obliged to protect this right.

BTW the Love Ulster march was led by old men and women on crutches...not exactly the skinheads theyre being portrayed as. Love Ulster are not the KKK and Dublin is not Harlem.

Your point caller?

Sam Vimes

murphaph wrote:

Axer, give up on the KKK through Harlem question. I'm not gonna answer it because it's pathetic and irrelevant whatabboutery. OUR government who WE elect decided the FAIR march would be legal. A mob decided that our votes count for nothing and that the decision of OUR government didn't suit them.

Back on topic,
I'd imagine a summer date might bring more unionists south, though many may stay away even if invited given what has happened.

just calling an argument pathetic doesn't make it so. i think its a valid point. the kkk is legal and if they wanted to march through harlem the government would almost certainly have to let them. of course, they claim their organisation isn't about any other races but about being proud of being white. you'd have to wonder why they'd want to march in a black area.
in the same way you have to wonder why people who love ulster don't just march in ulster. i don't care that they love ulster. it has nothing to do with me or anyone down here. if they want to show their love of ulster they should march in ulster.


just because we voted for the government doesn't mean we have to agree with everything they do in office. that's kind of missing the point of democracy. i'm appalled at the opportunistic scumbaggery that took place yesterday but i would have been equally appalled if there was no counter protest to this hate march

Snickers Man

Marching through a main shopping thorughfare in an orderly manner, across a route approved by the authorities to a pre-arranged point where speeches may be made and petitions handed over is a fundamental right in a democracy.

However much we may dissaprove of the marchers, they followed the law to the letter in organising this march. They should have been let proceed with it and if they stepped out of line they should have been dealt with by the law.

It was not a good day for the Gardai. I don't blame them for the violence. I do blame them for the fact that it got out of hand so quickly and that the rioters effectively won.

They stopped the march going ahead.
They made **** of the city.
They will probably succeed in producing a much more violent and intolerant attitude among policemen.

The loyalists, too, were able to make a point that will bring them much satisfaction. That the Irish government cannot control the extremist elements in its own society to the point where legitimate political protest can be stifled.

The march should be rearranged and properly policed next time.

But only a complete prat would suggest that it take place to coincide with the 90th anniversary of 1916. It would be like organising a 'Free David Irving' march down Whitehall (the London one) to coincide with Armistice Day.

Sir Oxman

hmmm wrote:

Ignore the provo apologists on this thread. Your assumption on the thread is correct - the government of this state authorised the parade/demonstration. As a state we failed in our duty to allow this parade to pass off peacefully, and it would be shameful if we allowed a bunch of thugs and bigots to dictate what can be done on our streets.

The content of the parade is irrelevent - it was approved, and we should make sure it goes ahead.

I haven't heard anyone apologising for the PIRA on this thread.

I've agreed with some points here by pro-FAIR march people, it is a conundrum but my main point is that I believe the wrong decision was made and inadequate security was provided...and that's not in hindsight.
The very same Govt elected on our behalf which gave the go ahead for this march, patently did not think iot through and as a result left a lot of ordinary Dubliners and residents of our capital at risk.

Sam Vimes

Sand wrote:

BTW the Love Ulster march was led by old men and women on crutches...not exactly the skinheads theyre being portrayed as. Love Ulster are not the KKK and Dublin is not Harlem.

Your point caller?

yes, those people were in the front so that they could make the very argument you just made. everyone behind them were members of groups that exist solely to hate the people whose streets they were marching on. did you ever go to loveulster.com before it was shut down? it was reminiscent of stormfront.org.

murphaph

Commander Vimes wrote:

just calling an argument pathetic doesn't make it so. i think its a valid point. the kkk is legal and if they wanted to march through harlem the government would almost certainly have to let them. just because we voted for the government doesn't mean we have to agree with everything they do in office. that's kind of missing the point of democracy. i'm appalled at the opportunistic scumbaggery that took place yesterday but i would have been equally appalled if there was no counter protest to this hate march

I never said we have to agree with what our government decides. I said quite simply that we elect them to make decisions and if we're not happy with the decisions they make we can vote for someone else next time. If you want to debate axer's KKK thru Harlem point, fire ahead. It's pretty much all he's got though.

Sam Vimes

murphaph wrote:

I never said we have to agree with what our government decides. I said quite simply that we elect them to make decisions and if we're not happy with the decisions they make we can vote for someone else next time. If you want to debate axer's KKK thru Harlem point, fire ahead. It's pretty much all he's got though.

the point is that i don't want to wait three years or whatever to voice my dissatisfaction with the government. you're saying that the march was approved by the government so we should just have let it go ahead. doesn't that effectively make the right to protest pointless? if all we do is say "ooo that pissed me off. just wait until 2008. ill show them"

baring in mind i don't support any of the violence from yesterday

Snickers Man

axer wrote:

Should the KKK be allowed march through Harlem? If such a march was allowed would you expect it to go through peacefully?

You're being very stupid. The rule of law, which is essential for any democracy, does make allowances for the application of common sense and the finding of a balance between the right to protest and assemble peacefully and the likely effects on inflaming local tensions.

Comparing a march through the business district of Dublin with a march by a bunch of white supremacists through a black neigbourhood is not comparing apples with apples.Yes the KKK should be allowed to march through a suitable area of New York, (ie NOT Harlem) adequately policed and if any of their banners or speeches infringe laws against race hatred or incitement to violence, then the perpetrators should be arrested.

I reckon that if I can march on a Bloody Sunday Commemoration through London, (and I have) protected by the Metropolitan police from a baying mob of NF/BNP skinheads out to cause trouble, (and I was) then loyalists have the right to march PEACEFULLY through Central Dublin.

Your analogy with Harlem doesn't work.

BTW, you do know that in the 1970s, the Anti Nazi League used to chant at the National Front during their rallies 'Come and march in Brixton'. I think they were fairly confiedent that the local black population would be more than a match for them.

Sir Oxman

Commander Vimes wrote:

yes, those people were in the front so that they could make the very argument you just made. everyone behind them were members of groups that exist solely to hate the people whose streets they were marching on. did you ever go to loveulster.com before it was shut down? it was reminiscent of stormfront.org.

Oh that's a pity. I wanted to have a look. Though maybe it's offline for bandwidth reasons (as stated in the error msg?)
I'd imagine a lot of people are trying to have a gawk.

Sand

yes, those people were in the front so that they could make the very argument you just made. everyone behind them were members of groups that exist solely to hate the people whose streets they were marching on. did you ever go to loveulster.com before it was shut down? it was reminiscent of stormfront.org.

Ive seen the photos of the Love Ulster parade as it set up getting ready to march - all it was was those old folks at the front, some parade bands, and a few union jacks and what looked like an orange lodge banner. Harmless enough, and certainly no violence came from them.

I contrasted that with the republican counter demonstrators with their "Remember Bloody Sunday" banners all dressed in heavy coats, covering their faces and looking like complete and utter scumbags. Who started the rioting again? Those patriots wasnt it? Pure scum.

As for LoveUlster.com, eh....who cares? Dont you get it? It doesnt matter if you dont like the view held by the marchers, they still have the right to express it peacefully. There are limits on free exspression, but none of them are "expressing unpopular views is illegal".

IrishAirCorps

Yesterday i was disgusted to Call myself Irish, just watching it on Sky News made me feel ill, have those fcukwits ever heard of "Europe" ? This type of thing should not have happened in our Great Country those people dont recognise the Irish Government who were voted in by the people and they dont recognise An Garda Siochana and The real Irish Defence Forces "Oglaigh na hEireann", i sincerely hope nobody here condones what we and quite possibly the world witnessed on Sky News.

murphaph

Commander Vimes wrote:

the point is that i don't want to wait three years or whatever to voice my dissatisfaction with the government. you're saying that the march was approved by the government so we should just have let it go ahead. doesn't that effectively make the right to protest pointless? if all we do is say "ooo that pissed me off. just wait until 2008. ill show them"

baring in mind i don't support any of the violence from yesterday

You can of course make your peaceful protestations to government by lobbying them, contacting your TDs, councillors or standing outside DE with a placard, whatever, so long as it's peaceful, but yes, ultimately in any functioning dmocracy, you only really get to 'show them' at the polls.

Freelancer

Bitter hatreds that underpin Love Ulster parade in Dublin

25/02/2006

The organisers of today's event have every right to come to Dublin to express their grief and anger at being bereaved by the IRA. But they must face some unpalatable truths, writes Susan McKay.

As soon as he heard that the Rev Ian Paisley had stood up in the House of Commons and said Eugene Reavey was responsible for the Kingsmills massacre, Alan Black went straight to the Reaveys' house in Whitecross, south Armagh. He told Reavey that he knew he was innocent.

This was in 1999. Black was the sole survivor of the sectarian massacre, which saw up to a dozen IRA gunmen ambush a bus carrying workmen home in January 1976. They lined the men up and raked them with automatic gunfire. Ten men died. Black was hit 18 times.

Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (Fair) is to hold a rally in Dublin today to draw attention to the suffering of the victims of terrorism. However, this is an organisation which has effectively branded an innocent Catholic man the mass murderer of his Protestant neighbours, causing him intense anguish and, inevitably, putting his life at risk.

The PSNI has stated that it had no reason to suspect Reavey of any crime, let alone of masterminding one of the worst atrocities of the Troubles. But Fair defiantly continues to carry the allegation through a link to Paisley's speech on its website, despite repeated demands by the police for it to be removed.

Reavey witnessed the immediate aftermath of the massacre, which took place near his home. He was driving to Newry and happened upon it. He and his family were on their way to Daisy Hill hospital to collect the bodies of two of his brothers, John (24) and Brian (22).

They had been shot dead the previous night when loyalist gunmen burst into the family home. Three members of another local Catholic family were also murdered that night.

Reavey was also going to visit his younger brother, Anthony, who had been badly injured in the attack. The bodies of the murdered workmen were being brought into the mortuary when he arrived. He went into the room where the shattered families were gathering, and wept with them. Alan Black and Anthony Reavey shared a hospital room. Black lived. Reavey died.

Black has said that earlier on the day they met their deaths, the men on the bus had spoken with horror about the murders of the young Reaveys. He has remained a close friend of the Reavey family since the events of those terrible days.

Paisley's Westminster claim, that Reavey was a "well-known Republican" who had "set up" the massacre, was made under parliamentary privilege.

He spoke of the "wild men" of the IRA who were free because the British government had not been ruthless enough in putting down terrorism. He said his information came from police files.

The deputy first minister, the SDLP's Séamus Mallon, expressed outrage. Reavey went to the chief constable of the RUC, Ronnie Flanagan. Flanagan said he had "absolutely no evidence whatsoever" to connect him with the massacre, and that no police file contained any such allegation.

Paisley has not retracted it, and on the 30th anniversary of the massacre this January, Willie Frazer, Fair's leading spokesman, and DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson claimed once again to know the perpetrators.

The Reavey murders were carried out by a gang which included men who were dual members of the illegal UVF and the British security forces. This gang was responsible for multiple sectarian murders, including the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombs, which killed 33 people.

Evidence including the testimony of a former member of the gang suggests that Robert McConnell, a UDR soldier, was a member. Before he died, Anthony Reavey described one of the gunmen who shot him. It was an accurate description of McConnell.

He was murdered by the IRA later in 1976. When Fair was set up in 1998, to remember what "Irish republican death squads" had done to south Armagh Protestants, "without justification or reprisal", his nephew, Brian, became a prominent member.

Willie Frazer is open about his belief that the loyalist paramilitaries were a necessary part of the war against the IRA. During a protest against the release of republican prisoners as part of the Good Friday agreement, he was asked about loyalist prisoners. "They should never have been locked up in the first place," he replied.

He told me once that, while he didn't condone the murder of "innocent Catholics", he had "a lot of time for Billy Wright", who "called a spade a spade". The notorious loyalist broke away from the UVF to form the Loyalist Volunteer Force in 1996 to kill Catholics in support of the Orange Order's right to march through the Catholic part of Portadown.

Another Drumcree supporter said of Wright, "He may be a psychopath, but he's our psychopath". Since 1996 at least 12 people, including three children, have been murdered in parades-related violence.

Frazer, who is an Orangeman and an Apprentice Boy, said he understood why soldiers and police passed information about republicans to loyalists. He applied for a weapon for his personal protection and was turned down in 2003 because, according to police, of "reliable intelligence" that he "associated with loyalist terrorist organisations". He denied it and sought a judicial review - it was refused in 2004.

The Orange Order welcomed the UDA leader, Johnny "Mad Dog" Adair to the Portadown protest in 2000.

Last summer, after the Parades Commission put restrictions on the Order's Whiterock Road parade, Paisley declared: "This could be the spark that kindles a fire there will be no putting out." The UVF offered to force the march along the order's preferred route (past Catholic homes).

The order called the people out to support it. Days and nights of violence followed. Orangemen lunged with pikes and ceremonial swords at policemen. There were shouts of: "Are youse Fenians in disguise?"

Today's event is billed as a Love Ulster rally. This campaign was launched last July with the symbolic landing at Larne harbour of bales of newspapers, bearing the title "Love Ulster". This recalled 1914 when the UVF ran guns to Larne to arm unionists against Home Rule. At least one loyalist paramilitary leader was among those unloading the papers, smiling cheerfully for the invited cameras.

The July publication is full of harrowing accounts by victims and survivors of IRA atrocities, including Bloody Friday, La Mon, Kingsmills, Enniskillen and Shankill.

There are photographs of carnage. Alan McBride, whose wife died in the Shankill bomb in 1993, said of the paper: "Blood was pouring from it".

However, it saddened him that there was no acknowledgment that the unionist community had "caused pain and grief as well".

Catholics feature in "Love Ulster" as IRA killers. Paisley declared at an Independent Orange Order gathering in 1997 that "the entire pan-nationalist front is united behind the beast of fascism, the IRA".

Love Ulster warns that Ulster is at "crisis point" and on the verge of being "sold out" into a United Ireland. It calls on Protestants to unite. This call for ethnic solidarity and militancy is the core of DUP politics. It was also a founding principle of the Orange Order.

Soon after its formation at the end of the 18th century, an Armagh squire wrote of his reliance on the local "Bleary Boys". These were "stout Protestants of a character somewhat lawless", but loyal.

Fair and the DUP insist the war is not over and that the enemy can still be defeated. A previous effort led by Drumcree stalwarts to rally Protestants around a new Ulster covenant was launched in Ballymena in 2001 with calls from one speaker for "B52 bombers over Dublin".

Willie Frazer is a hurt man. The IRA murdered his father and four of his relations. Michelle Williamson, whose parents were killed in the Shankill bomb, expressed the intensity of this pain when she said of the surviving bomber, Seán Kelly: "You are like a disease in my bones, and the only cure is justice. To say I hate you doesn't begin to describe how I feel."

Robert McConnell may have murdered the Reaveys but to his family he was the man who looked after his sick brother and disabled sister.

The families bereaved by the IRA have every right to their grief and their anger, and every right to come to Dublin to express it. The news that the bands which will accompany today's parade will not play as they pass the sites of the Dublin bombs is welcome.

Fair, Frazer admitted to a House of Commons select committee hearing last year, is controversial. "We are seen as the bad boys within the victims sector," he said.

This is largely because of its aggressive insistence that there are "innocent" and "genuine" and "real" victims, and there are others who have no right to call themselves victims at all.

According to Fair and the DUP, Eugene Reavey is in the latter category. It is an appalling lie.

© The Irish Times

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I'm appalled by the rioting, and it's inexcusable we should have the maturity to allow loyalists to have their bloody march, but to suggest the FAIR lads are a bunch of sweethearts making a protest about IRA violence is fooling themselves, and they should not be protrayed in a postive light at the end of this.

GuanYin

I was sickened by the violence and to be honest, I think an awful lot of it was opportunistic scum wrecking havoc (looting and assaults). I hope that those arrested getthe harshest punishment available.

That said, I'm pretty dubious of the "love ulster" brigade. I heard the march organiser interviewed on the last word and despite his pleads of ignorance to many of the accusations put to him, he didn't in anyway come across as innocent. Her personally attacked a church or ireland reverent who took an opposing view to him, which didn't endear me to him either.

Most notably, he fluffled his explanation/justification of starting the march within 100 metres of

1) The Sinn Fein Offices
2) The Garden of Rememberance
3) Seomra 1916 in Colaiste Mhuire.

The whole acting upon their "constitutional right" etc etc also seemed pretty hollow, especially seeing as he dodged the question about seeing himself soley as an English citizen and not recognising the Island or Ireland or his claims as an Irishman (he called himself British at leats once).

Now, given that mentality, I'd find it hard to believe that the march was innocent.


That said, the people of Dublin should know better. Sad day for Ireland on the international stage.

Another question that has to be asked is: "How did Garda Intelligence miss this?"

I wouldn't personally have any problem with a second march, but I'd want to see serious restrictions on it.

Sir Oxman

Sand wrote:

Ive seen the photos of the Love Ulster parade as it set up getting ready to march - all it was was those old folks at the front, some parade bands, and a few union jacks and what looked like an orange lodge banner. Harmless enough, and certainly no violence came from them.

I contrasted that with the republican counter demonstrators with their "Remember Bloody Sunday" banners all dressed in heavy coats, covering their faces and looking like complete and utter scumbags. Who started the rioting again? Those patriots wasnt it? Pure scum.

As for LoveUlster.com, eh....who cares? Dont you get it? It doesnt matter if you dont like the view held by the marchers, they still have the right to express it peacefully. There are limits on free exspression, but none of them are "expressing unpopular views is illegal".

I wanted to have a read of it as I've been reading posts about this organisations beliefs etc and I'd like to find out for myself what they are about.
In that respect, I do think it's relevant as I want to understand why our Govt, as you say, on the balance of probabilities and common-sense, approved that this organisation should be allowed organise a march in Dublin.

Your "KKK should be allowed to march through an appropriate part of NY" is the same as someone opining the Love Ulster march should go ahead, but not necessarily through the heart of Dublin, and not necessarily waving union jacks and OO banners about which could be construed as provocative. Is putting restrictions on such marches (applying common sense and upholding safety of marchers and residents) against 'free speech' or just being wise?

The big annoyance I have is the inadequacy of the preparation of the authorities and the planning of this march and of course, the utter scum who took advantage of the situation.

Elmo

A "FAIR" march would be one where all sides marched together to comerate the DEATHS of innocent civilans by the British Army, Loyalist and Nationalist Paramilataries.

The loyalist seem to think that they where the only people effected by the death and destruction of the troubles.

While I disagree with people who stopped the march going a head, I can see their point of view.

Let us not forget Bloody Sunday where the british army shot dead innocent marchers.

Someone tell me how the Dublin march was a civil rights march?

It is time for us all to move on and this is not the way.

LOVE ULSTER ALL NINE.

murphaph

delah wrote:

Your "KKK should be allowed to march through an appropriate part of NY" is the same as someone opining the Love Ulster march should go ahead, but not necessarily through the heart of Dublin, and not necessarily waving union jacks and OO banners about which could be construed as provocative. Is putting restrictions on such marches (applying common sense and upholding safety of marchers and residents) against 'free speech' or just being wise?

The Union Flag flies from half the hotels in Dublin and doesn't bother anyone.

O'Connell St. is a traditional route for protests to run along. The FAI people didn't pick out as many 1916 shrines as possible to pass by, Dublin just happens to have a compact city centre where everything happens.

Elmo

The Union Flag flies from half the hotels in Dublin and doesn't bother anyone.

There are rules about foreign flags on buildings.

The Irish Flag must be the highest flag.

Sir Oxman

murphaph wrote:

The Union Flag flies from half the hotels in Dublin and doesn't bother anyone.

O'Connell St. is a traditional route for protests to run along. The FAI people didn't pick out as many 1916 shrines as possible to pass by, Dublin just happens to have a compact city centre where everything happens.

There are many other routes this okayed march could have taken - considering it's obvious sensitivity and potential for trouble.

That's my point, no foresight from our elected leaders which exacerbated the carnage in town yesterday.

The city authorities and our govt need to be brought to book and made explain why ordinary citizens going about their business were put at risk yesterday.

The scum who rioted/looted need to have the full weight of the law brought to bear against them (which probably means a suspended sentence knowing this country...)

Elmo

The scum who rioted/looted need to have the full weight of the law brought to bear against them (which probably means a suspended sentence knowing this country...)

Did the Loot? I thought to Loot was to Rob. Did the Rob anything?

Ah well I am sure the Minister for Justice will take special care for these rioters. lol

Sand

In that respect, I do think it's relevant as I want to understand why our Govt, as you say, on the balance of probabilities and common-sense, approved that this organisation should be allowed organise a march in Dublin.

The government would have to think of a good reason why they couldnt.

Your "KKK should be allowed to march through an appropriate part of NY" is the same as someone opining the Love Ulster march should go ahead, but not necessarily through the heart of Dublin, and not necessarily waving union jacks and OO banners about which could be construed as provocative. Is putting restrictions on such marches (applying common sense and upholding safety of marchers and residents) against 'free speech' or just being wise?

I didnt say they should march through "an appropriate part" of NY. Whats an appropriate part of NY for a white supremacist march exactly? If they want to march through Harlem, then other than dividing the city into White and Black areas, or Straight and Homosexual areas, or Republican and Democrat areas, theres no grounds for stopping them. NI is a ****ed up sectarian cess pit of a society, it is not the norm to only allow people to express their views in *their* areas. So long as they ( the marchers) co-operate with the police in planning the route then theyre merely exercising their rights responsibly. If others choose to use violence to attack the march, then theyre breaking the law and should be arrested. End of, tbh.

And this thing about provocation - a union jack is not provocation to anyone semi-reasonable. Are England supporters wearning jerseys and flying flags taking their lives into their hands if they attend rugby or football games here? Is a Cork man looking for a beating if he ventures into Dublin wearing his countys colours? People here were outraged when Trimble dismissed the Republic as a mono-cultural society, but we seem intent on proving him right.

murphaph

Elmo wrote:

There are rules about foreign flags on buildings.

The Irish Flag must be the highest flag.

They are called flag protocols, but there are not rules. Anyway-that's irrelevant. The Union Flag flies from many locations in Dublin every day of the week, so a few british nationals carrying one around shouldn't make the blood boil now should it? :rolleyes:

Elmo

a few british nationals carrying one around shouldn't make the blood boil now should it?

I actually find the fashion of wearing Union Jacks on tee shirts and hand bags etc. really offensive.

The Union Jack is as bad as the Staticka IMO. Why because the British also tried to take over the world, and actually got away with it.

DOLEMAN

Sarsfield wrote:

If Republicans are allowed march in Dublin then so should Unionists.

But Republicans are from our Country. Unionists are from a different Country.

I agree with a "remember the dead" march. Divisions should not exist in death.

Sir Oxman

Elmo wrote:

Did the Loot? I thought to Loot was to Rob. Did the Rob anything?

Ah well I am sure the Minister for Justice will take special care for these rioters. lol

1. Yes.
2. Probably not.

Elmo

But Republicans are from our Country. Unionists are from a different Country.

Strangly most of the TD's didn't want the Republicans marching and they did not organise that the Gardi be out and about making sure that the Republicans where safe. strange.

They will all want this Unionist march to go ahead.

What did they rob? A burger from MCs

But sure the MoJ is a unionist.

SeanW

I abhor the violence of yestarday and think very poorly of those involved, I will say this much ...

If you wanted to organise a "remember the victims of Loyalist terror ... long live 1916 ... Love Eveything Green" parade through a Loyalist area of Belfast or Derry or wherever, do you think that

1: You'd be allowed and:
2: If you did march, there wouldn't be people killed?

I agree with the whole KKK march through Harlem thing ... the group involved seem totally imbalanced in their "victim representation" and it looks like they just hate Irish people or something, so trouble should have been expected.

Most of us realise, as I do, that within limits, people have the right to be sad, bitter, backward, pathetic, hate-filled morons, those rioters obviously didn't. That's probably the saddest thing of all.

Sir Oxman

Sand wrote:

The government would have to think of a good reason why they couldnt.

I understand that.


I didnt say they should march through "an appropriate part" of NY.

Oops, apologies Sand - I misquoted, that was Snickers Man. Again, apologies :eek:


Whats an appropriate part of NY for a white supremacist march exactly? If they want to march through Harlem, then other than dividing the city into White and Black areas, or Straight and Homosexual areas, or Republican and Democrat areas, theres no grounds for stopping them. NI is a ****ed up sectarian cess pit of a society, it is not the norm to only allow people to express their views in *their* areas. So long as they ( the marchers) co-operate with the police in planning the route then theyre merely exercising their rights responsibly. If others choose to use violence to attack the march, then theyre breaking the law and should be arrested. End of, tbh.


I agree. Common sense should prevail though in decisions like this. I'm on a hunt now for any marches not allowed by our Govt and the reasons why...

And this thing about provocation - a union jack is not provocation to anyone semi-reasonable. Are England supporters wearning jerseys and flying flags taking their lives into their hands if they attend rugby or football games here? Is a Cork man looking for a beating if he ventures into Dublin wearing his countys colours? People here were outraged when Trimble dismissed the Republic as a mono-cultural society, but we seem intent on proving him right.

Everything should be in context. Marching to highlight death of loved ones and accusations of Irish Govt complicity...did they really need to bring their emblems? Really? (Of course, that is just my opinion)
The Corkman may be ill-advised to do so after all there are mountains of scumbags out there. That's his decision on weighing up the pros and cons...same with the English supporters. That is just life as we live it, unfortunately.

Freelancer

SeanW wrote:

I agree with the whole KKK march through Harlem thing ... the group involved seem totally imbalanced in their "victim representation" and it looks like they just hate Irish people or something, so trouble should have been expected.

Its been said before and will be said again the number of people with "support denmark" sig" who start talking about "limits" to free speech are just funny.

SeanW

Freelancer your post is rubbish. Did you even READ my post? I didn't say they were to blame. At no time did I suggest that they should not have been allowed to make their march. I just pointed out that if you let a whole bunch of "we hate Ireland" people march throught Dublin City Centre, trouble should have been expected.

That said they had the right to MAKE their protest and I'm all for them being cleared to try another one, just preferably with better security. It's the exact same as the Jyllands Posten affair, people have the right to be offensive etc.