Poor play on every street?

Hitman Actual

One of those hands that I keep going over in my head. Fitz scalps game, Blinds = 150/300, I have 8.5K, villain has 8K. Villain is a tight passive player. The only raise he made was to re-raise all-in with 66 after a BB raise with AK. Other than that he's called a few hands.

Pre-flop: Villain raises to 1K UTG. His range here is AA, KK, QQ, and maybe JJ and AK. I have 88 (one heart) in LP and call. Good/Bad call? I'm not sure I can stack him if I hit. (Pot is now 2450)

Flop is 5h6hQs. He checks, I check. Good/Bad?

Turn is 7h. He checks. I now have a straight flush draw, flush draw which may be good, straight which may be good, and two 8's. (I rule out QQ here, because I'm sure he would have bet by now. AA and KK are also unlikely as he would have bet by now as well). I bet 1K into a 2450 pot. Good/Bad?

Villain thinks for a good while, and I know he's not happy. From his actions I'm now almost certain that my 8h is good for the flush. Then he moves all-in. I call automatically. Good/Bad?

Ste05

Great post so much to work with, if I wasn't half pissed I could talk for pages about this. It'll probably be said before I get to it but......

Push on the turn. Although I wouldn't have played it like this up to there.

TacT

blatantly stupid post -- push preflop :v:

The Snapper

Based on the range you put villain on 4 of the 5 hands have you dominated.

Calling the prefop 1k ?. I would'nt.

also you feel you won't stack him if you hit the 2 outer. ?

Would he trap check that flop with AA KK QQQ.

Where are you at in the hand ?. If he bets 4th street are you planning to call ?. If you are, then I think you should bet the flop, maybe 1200 / 1500.

Any action and I'm done with the hand.

He may check AKh on this flop.

Hitman Actual

The Snapper wrote:

also you feel you won't stack him if you hit the 2 outer. ?

It's not that I feel I definately wont, it's more that I'm not sure (if that makes sense ). Villain is passive with a tight pre-flop raising range. But I think he's poor; early in the game he called an EP raise with K8s. :eek: (Which of course preceeded to hit). Most of the time, he limps, and gets out to any action on the flop if he doesn't hit. But here I'm almost certain he has AA, KK, QQ, which I dont think he can get away from on a lower flop.

ntlbell

lenny_leonard wrote:

It's not that I feel I definately wont, it's more that I'm not sure (if that makes sense ). Villain is passive with a tight pre-flop raising range. But I think he's poor; early in the game he called an EP raise with K8s. :eek: (Which of course preceeded to hit). Most of the time, he limps, and gets out to any action on the flop if he doesn't hit. But here I'm almost certain he has AA, KK, QQ, which I dont think he can get away from on a lower flop.

I'm in the same boat as snapper if you put him on AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK pre-flop then you have no buisness getting involved with 88.

But since you have got involved, if he has any of the above hands he's played them pretty badly.

my guess is he had AK with one heart and hit the flush.

califano

Because you called a bet pre flop you've got to bet(approx 1500) that flop with only one overcard in it. You can easily fold if he goes all-in.

Either that or all-in like TacT says.

fuzzbox

Fold preflop against this player in this spot for this price.

My guess is he has QQ.

Hitman Actual

Ok, biggest mistake was getting involved in the first place. And anyone who knows my play will know that this was a very unusual loose call on my behalf. I normally wouldn't think twice about getting involved here against this player.

fuzzbox wrote:

Fold preflop against this player in this spot for this price.

My guess is he has QQ.

Once you're involved how do you play the flop? And if you're in my position on the turn facing the all-in, do you think it's an autocall? I'm almost certain at this stage that my heart/straight draw is live.

JuliusFranco

yea i know these kind of players, and i can't help but feel that your range of hands for the villian is too high...
i think i would have tried to take a stab at the pot on the flop, you might have taken it there.
I think he has something like 99. the Q on the flop might have scared him a bit (poor tight passive people hate overcards( i know cos i used to be one ).

However, as you checked on the flop now he probably thinks you don't have a Q and your bet on 4th street is a "stab". He might think his 99 is good.

If I didn't bet the flop I'd definatly push on the turn thinking call with your 99 now ya cnt ya!

If I'm talking comeplete nonsence someone please feel free to tell me to shut up

Hitman Actual

JuliusFranco wrote:

However, as you checked on the flop now he probably thinks you don't have a Q and your bet on 4th street is a "stab".

This is a good point. My bet is weak, and I'm leaving it far to easy for him to play back at me. And because of his re-raise all-in earlier with 66, I'm thinking that maybe he does have the ability to play back at me with, say, a missed AK. This is another reason I called the all-in.

ntlbell

lenny_leonard wrote:

Ok, biggest mistake was getting involved in the first place. And anyone who knows my play will know that this was a very unusual loose call on my behalf. I normally wouldn't think twice about getting involved here against this player.



Once you're involved how do you play the flop? And if you're in my position on the turn facing the all-in, do you think it's an autocall? I'm almost certain at this stage that my heart/straight draw is live.

What makes you so sure he hasn't a heart higher than an 8 ?

if he had QQ/KK/AA/JJ/1010/99/AhKs/KsAh with any heart your flush draw is dead obviously.

On the flop as stated by many you have to take a stab at it, and fold to anymore action.

jtsuited

curiousity is killin me! what did he have?

The Snapper

I fold to his all in. he's a weak passive player, most if not all ( AK with a heart) his range has you fubar.

He obviously does'nt have a Heart and you hit the flush. But !, you only know this from the outcome and could'nt be sure of this at the time. My guess is you called and got lucky.

Hitman Actual

Ok, so basically my pre-flop call is terrible, not betting the flop is terrible, the weak bet on the turn is poor. That's 3 out of 4 so far.

But... I was almost certain that he didn't have a heart when he went into the tank after my turn bet. I could tell that he hated the three hearts on board, plus, strange and all as his play was, he surely would have bet by now with AhAx, KhKx, QhQx, AhKx, AxKh, JhJx.

So once he goes all-in, surely folding is a mistake considering the big draw I have (I have to call 6K to win a pot of 15K). That's my last question here: Should I compound 3 stupid plays by folding now?

Anyway, he turned over JsJc. I didn't improve, but that's not the point. Snapper, I never use hindsight analysis to justify whether a play is right or wrong. My read was strong that he had no heart.

ntlbell

lenny_leonard wrote:

Ok, so basically my pre-flop call is terrible, not betting the flop is terrible, the weak bet on the turn is poor. That's 3 out of 4 so far.

But... I was almost certain that he didn't have a heart when he went into the tank after my turn bet. I could tell that he hated the three hearts on board, plus, strange and all as his play was, he surely would have bet by now with AhAx, KhKx, QhQx, AhKx, AxKh, JhJx.

So once he goes all-in, surely folding is a mistake considering the big draw I have (I have to call 6K to win a pot of 15K). That's my last question here: Should I compound 3 stupid plays by folding now?

Anyway, he turned over JsJc. I didn't improve, but that's not the point. Snapper, I never use hindsight analysis to justify whether a play is right or wrong. My read was strong that he had no heart.

I still don't understand why you felt he didn't have a heart, if I had AK here with only 1 heart and 1 card to come I wouldn't like the 3 hearts there eithier, especially since you have checked it so far, and a 7 more than likley hasn't helped you but it's a h and your bet looks like one that wants to be called, but with JJ here I'm worried about alot of things, the hearts, the Q. 17 outs getting nearly 2.5:1 I'd call in a flash.

Hitman Actual

ntlbell wrote:

I still don't understand why you felt he didn't have a heart,

It was one of those "you had to be there" moments. Honestly, it was one of the strongest read/gut-instinct feelings I've had in the game.