Heroes in Hell

Yossie

Listening to some R.E.M. this morning on the bus, Stipe was singing the song "Burning Hell", which has the great line "All the best people are burning down in hell, hell, hell"

That line and the recent "hunamity is evil" comment reminded me of a thing we used to do in college. We'd name heroes of ours, who by comparison with loose christian dogma, were now in hell. I always found it comforting to think of those i might meet if i'm wrong in my atheism:)

The Rules:-

1. They must be a hero of yours and dead

2. Any non-christian is in, e.g. Ghandi

3. Any atheist/agnostic is in

4. Anybody who has lived an immoral/debauched life by christian standards

If they are well known then just the name will do. If they are not so well known e.g. your atheist granny then give a one-line justification.

So let's have some suggestions........:)

Yossie

Noel Browne - former irish health minister "mother and child scheme" (atheist)

Yossie

Charles Bukowski - hard drinkin' author

robindch

> We'd name heroes of ours, who by comparison with loose christian dogma, were now in hell.

Douglas Adams, Charles Darwin, Socrates, Galileo, Einstein, etc, etc, etc...

Actually, perhaps it would be more interesting to ask who, according to loose christian dogma, is in heaven and who would be fun to have a few beers with

Excelsior

I intend to take Karl Marx to school over a game of table tennis. I look forward to hanging around the kitchen of whatever genius invented tiramasu.

BrianCalgary

Louis Pasteur, Charles Spurgeon, Moses.

A beer with Paul Henderson (scored the winning goal for Canada over Russia in the 1972 hockey series)

A kick about with the Brazilians who won the recent Confederations Cup.

The kids I met in Guatemala.

My list goes on.

Sorry I will not get to meet some of the fine Atheists I have met throughout my life.

John Doe

Jimi Hendrix, Bill Hicks, Nick Drake, Elliot Smith, Vincent VanGogh, all the other genius suicides.

larryone

Nearly every musician I like will go to hell, according to Catholic Dogma.
The music in heaven will probably suck.

samb

robindch wrote:

[

Actually, perhaps it would be more interesting to ask who, according to loose christian dogma, is in heaven and who would be fun to have a few beers with

Sorry I give up, too difficult;)

Excelsior

Van Gogh will be an interesting person to meet, since he will be so different.

But for music Larry, I'll happily go to all the Sufjan Stevens concerts in heaven.

Yossie

No women so far, which is interesting. Is that because all women go to heaven or because people don't have female heroes?

With that in mind let me suggest....


Alexandra Kollontai - Russian revolutionary and "free love" believer

Emily Dickinson


PS Don't forget rule 1 folks - your hero and dead.

Asiaprod

Yossie wrote:

No women so far, which is interesting. Is that because all women go to heaven or because people don't have female heroes?

Kate Bush, Katie Melua, but I will get there before them.
Jackie Kennedy who should be waiting for my arrival.

Yossie

Asiaprod wrote:

Jackie Kennedy who should be waiting for my arrival.

Well in that case, make it all of "The Dead Kennedys":D

Don't forget to make sure your heroes are DEAD first (but don't get caught killing them;) )

John Doe

Excelsior wrote:

But for music Larry, I'll happily go to all the Sufjan Stevens concerts in heaven.

Sufjan is my musician of 2005, Come On Feel the Illinoise never fails to make me cry (I'm such a big softy...). I didn't know he was a (proper) Christian though. His lyrics are just brilliant...

Excelsior

You don't qualify to be a PROPER Christian!

Sufjan is about as soaked in the blood of the lamb American evangelical as you can get. That makes him pretty freaking stereotype defying, eh?

I only discovered Bright Eyes in 2005 so it is a close run thing for me. I hope he makes it through the pearly gates.

Dades

Carl Sagan.

A truely inspiring man, and very definitely a hero of mine.

patzer117

The Atheist wrote:

Carl Sagan.

A truely inspiring man, and very definitely a hero of mine.

Great choice! This guy is a legend. I'm awaiting a special moment to post his pale blue dot on boards. Humbling man.

As for my choice, John Lennon, and I don't know if Cicero qualifies, but I presume he does and I'd love to meet him...

BrianCalgary

I've got it, finally, dead as a door nail, no idea where he is: Brian Boru.

larryone

Richard Feynman. Alan Turing.

UU

BrianCalgary wrote:

Louis Pasteur, Charles Spurgeon, Moses...

Hey Brian! Why would Moses go to hell? After all he saved the Hebrew people and wasn't he a prophet according to Christian standards?

Aristotle - he was one of the finest Greek philosophers. Seems like a lot of cool people end up in hell, eh? But we all know that it is Mormons who go to heaven (kidding). It was in the episode of South Park where God was a giant rat? LOL

Oh, the poetess Sylvia Plath - she committed suicide and was Unitarian.

bus77

BrianCalgary wrote:

I've got it, finally, dead as a door nail, no idea where he is: Brian Boru.

They say it was the monks that were pushing him on. Definitely in heaven.

Crucifix

larryone wrote:

Nearly every musician I like will go to hell, according to Catholic Dogma.
The music in heaven will probably suck.

Extended harp solos! Rock on!

Asiaprod

Yossie wrote:

Don't forget to make sure your heroes are DEAD first (but don't get caught killing them;) )

oops, of course, thats important.
I will join John Doe with Jimi Hendrix and will bring along Janis Joplin to balance up the harmony section. Still need to pick a good horn section.

wolfsbane

Yossie said:

The Rules:-

1. They must be a hero of yours and dead

2. Any non-christian is in, e.g. Ghandi

3. Any atheist/agnostic is in

4. Anybody who has lived an immoral/debauched life by christian standards

If they are well known then just the name will do. If they are not so well known e.g. your atheist granny then give a one-line justification.

Wow! I must admit, you got me thinking hard to come up with something. Most of the people I admire either are Christians or may have been so. But I can admire some of the benefits men and women have brought, without endorsing all they stood for: Napoleon, for example. The sheer courage of others: the anti-Mafia judges in Italy.

Yossie

wolfsbane wrote:

Wow! I must admit, you got me thinking hard to come up with something.

:eek:
You are joking, aren't you?

If not, then you really should widen the circle of things that you allow influence you.

Malcom X
Charlie Chaplin
Francis Bacon (both of them)
Earnest Hemmingway
James Connolly
James Dean
Marlon Brando
Edgar Degas
Emperor Julian

There's ten without having to think too hard.

hairyheretic

King Leonidas, who led the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.

wolfsbane

Yossie said:

Malcom X
Charlie Chaplin
Francis Bacon (both of them)
Earnest Hemmingway
James Connolly
James Dean
Marlon Brando
Edgar Degas
Emperor Julian

There's ten without having to think too hard.

Yes, Malcom X can be admired for some things. But he is not a hero to me - someone special. There are thousands of people who have some admirable aspects.

Charlie Chaplin? Why not Peter Sellars? Or someone who contributed something to the truth: Lenny Bruce.

Earnest Hemmingway? George Orwell would be a stronger candidate for me.

James Connolly? Edward Carson would nearly make the hero status for me.

James Dean? What's so special about him? Gary Cooper maybe.

Marlon Brando? Mmm - mighty actor.

Edgar Degas? William Blake for me.

Emperor Julian? Right up there with his later colleague, Adolf Hitler.

I'm sort of spoiled for choice in heros in the Christian community, so that limits the appeal of the non-Christian sort. Not counting the Bible characters, the early church is filled with notables like Polycarp; later Christians: Luther, Calvin, John Owen, Milton, Cromwell, John Eliot, William Carey, William Wilberforce, C.H. Spurgeon, Elizabeth Fry, Dr. Barnado, Jim Elliott, Corrie Ten Boom. And the countless martyrs for the faith in the gulags and killing fields of the anti-Christian regimes.

The maybe-Christian category I refered to in the previous post includes especially Alexander Solzynitsyn. He was a real inspiration to me in my younger days. Also I admire the works of Rudyard Kipling, the way he expressed the mind of the different types he encountered.

BrianCalgary

UU wrote:

Hey Brian! Why would Moses go to hell? After all he saved the Hebrew people and wasn't he a prophet according to Christian standards?

Had my list wrong, I was writing those to meeet in Heaven. I hope I don't mistake Moses for Charlton Heston. Would that be an embrassment?

John Doe

Heston might shoot you for it. It would be his right as an American citizen, if he thought you were invading his home (I don't know why he'd think that, but anyway...) He makes me sick.
Anyhoo, Bill Hicks arguably contributed more to the truth than Lenny Bruce, and I don't see why being spoiled for choice in the Christian community should limit the appeal of non-christians. Just because I would like to meet C.S. Lewis and Sufjan Stevens (thanks Excelsior!) doesn't mean I can't equally consider Salahuddin and Nick Cave. Once again wolfsbane you're coming into a discussion with a severe bias.
Edward Carson prosecuted Oscar Wilde for being homosexual. He broke the spirit of one of the greatest Irish literary figures. Big ups to him, I suppose. :mad:
George Orwell was hardly your classic bible-basher. He was very impressed by the anarchistic system of government he saw employed in northern Spain in the thirties, condemned as 'Godless' by all strict Christians of the time.
Your comment on Charlie Chaplin, 'Why not Peter Sellars?' doesn't make sense in the context. You were being asked 'Why not Charlie Chaplin?' and you answered with 'Why not someone else?'. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Your 'anti-Christian regimes' comment is seriously out of order. The totalitarian dictatorship in Russia was not an anti-Christian regime any more than it was an anti-everything-good regime. No-one was persecuted because they were Christian, they were persecuted because Stalin was paranoid and would do anything to protect his power.
An example of a non-Christian persecuted in that very regime who I would like to meet is Sergei Eisenstein (not killed but restricted and oppressed by Stalin).

wolfsbane

John Doe said:

Edward Carson prosecuted Oscar Wilde for being homosexual. He broke the spirit of one of the greatest Irish literary figures. Big ups to him, I suppose.

He was protecting the public morality of his time. But that is not why I have some admiration for him.

George Orwell was hardly your classic bible-basher.

Quite. I said my admiration for those unbelievers I listed was partial. Heroes hardly describes it.

You were being asked 'Why not Charlie Chaplin?' and you answered with 'Why not someone else?'. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree. I poorly put the idea that to me being a comedian hardly qualifies as heroic.

Your 'anti-Christian regimes' comment is seriously out of order. The totalitarian dictatorship in Russia was not an anti-Christian regime any more than it was an anti-everything-good regime. No-one was persecuted because they were Christian, they were persecuted because Stalin was paranoid and would do anything to protect his power.

It was not confined to Stalin, but lasted right to Gorbachov. Certainly some were persecuted as politicals, but the religious groups - Protestant, Roman Catholic, J.Ws, for example - were persecuted precisely for their religious beliefs. It continues in China today; North Korea; the Islamic countries.

John Doe

wolfsbane wrote:

Certainly some were persecuted as politicals

That is a horrendous understatement. All five to seven million killed in Russia during the Civil War by Lenin's induced famine were killed for political reasons. And even after Stalin, no-one was persecuted for their specific religion, rather for the opinions engendered by that religion that were in conflict with totalitarian communism. To call it an anti-Christian regime is misleading in the extreme.

wolfsbane

John Doe said:

rather for the opinions engendered by that religion that were in conflict with totalitarian communism.

I can speak for one group - the Evangelical Baptists. They had no political content to their beliefs. They were not advocating the overthrow of the state. The conflict with totalitarian communism related to their belief in God -something that was regarded as either a wicked anti-communist belief or a symptom of mental illness. Many believers were forcibly treated in the mental institutions, suffering lasting damage from the drugs.

What are you saying? That because Baptists were not persecuted for holding to total immersion, they were not persecuted for their Christianity? Or that a regime cannot be described as anti-Christian if it is also anti all religion?

John Doe

I'm saying that a regime should not be described as anti-Christian in the way that you described it if it is anti-all religion, because it's misleading. Specifically to this regime though, they didn't give a fiddler's fart about the specific teachings of Christianity, so how is calling it anti-Christian relevant? A totalitarian regime wants to control all aspects of the lives of all its citizens, hence the name. Therefore, it wants to get rid of anything that can influence the lives of its citizens that it doesn't control. An Evangelical Baptist group would believe in God and this would be in conflict with the 'control everything' view of the government. However, the regime didn't care at all that it was a Christian God that the baptists believed in: any major power or influence other than the purportedly-Communist regime would have done the job.
A secondary concern would have been that the Baptist group, being organised, was in itself a threat to total control of the lives of the Russian people.

wolfsbane

John Doe said:

I'm saying that a regime should not be described as anti-Christian in the way that you described it if it is anti-all religion, because it's misleading.

I see what you are getting at. I did not mean to imply otherwise. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific.

robindch

> Emperor Julian? Right up there with his later colleague, Adolf Hitler.

Tee, hee -- I should have guessed that you'd have cheerfully kicked the philosophic warrior, the Apostate Julian, the to the lowest pits of hell! Gibbon, equally predictably, takes the opposite view and has this to say about Julian to whom he devotes three of, arguably, his finest chapters:

The Christians, who beheld with horror and indignation the apostasy of Julian, had much more to fear from his power than from his arguments. [...] But the hopes, as well as the fears, of the religious factions were apparently disappointed by the prudent humanity of a prince who was careful of his own fame, of the public peace, and of the rights of mankind. Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind. [...] Julian surprised the world by an edict which was not unworthy of a statesman or a philosopher. He extended to all the inhabitants of the Roman world the benefits of a free and equal toleration; and the only hardship which he inflicted on the Christians was to deprive them of the power of tormenting their fellow-subjects, whom they stigmatised with the odious titles of idolaters and heretics.

I'm amazed that after 1650 years, Julian can still excite the hostility of Christians. More on Gibbon + Julian in Chapters 22, 23 and 24 at this site.

> heros in the Christian community [...] Cromwell

Remember you're posting to Ireland, where Cromwell is not so much viewed as a serene disciple of the Prince of Peace, but the man directly responsible for the slaughter of thousands of innocents in Wexford, Drogheda and elsewhere, as well as members of religious orders including monks, nuns and priests whom he went out of his way to murder. I'm a bit perplexed that you seem to think that he might be a hero of the community he did so much to destroy.

Yossie

wolfsbane wrote:

Charlie Chaplin? Why not Peter Sellars? Or someone who contributed something to the truth: Lenny Bruce.

Emperor Julian? Right up there with his later colleague, Adolf Hitler.

Ah Hilter "the great dictator", have you seen Chaplin's speech at the end of "The Great Dictator", don't know if anything comes closer to "truth", from any other comedian. That speech alone should make him a hero!:)

You mention Luther - my favourite qoute of his is "reason is the Devil's harlot". Can't argue with that:D

robindch wrote:

Remember you're posting to Ireland, where Cromwell is not so much viewed as a serene disciple of the Prince of Peace, but the man directly responsible for the slaughter of thousands of innocents in Wexford, Drogheda and elsewhere....

I think wolfsbane is well aware of Cromwell's Irish history. I think in the trade it's called "troll bait". We've already had carson :rolleyes:
Btw, thanks for the Julian qoute and website, I know someone who was very much impressed with you.

Excelsior

Next Wolfsbane will tell us Cromwell wasn't a mass murderer because he did let 12 people survive Drogheda and he wasn't a hate filled sectarian bigot because he had a few friends once who were Catholic.

Ariel Sharon is so far from a hero of mine, you wouldn't believe, but I would like to have a chat with him in the afterlife. (I fear I'm going where he can't go though)

John Doe

I'd be up for trying to talk to Sharon, Cromwell and other murderers just to try and work out what drove them but I think I'd only end up being upset!

wolfsbane

robindch said:

I'm amazed that after 1650 years, Julian can still excite the hostility of Christians.

I withdraw my comment on him. I mixed him up with a predecessor, Diocletian, who severely persecuted the Christian church. Sounds like Julian gave them a bit of what they deserved.

Remember you're posting to Ireland, where Cromwell is not so much viewed as a serene disciple of the Prince of Peace, but the man directly responsible for the slaughter of thousands of innocents in Wexford, Drogheda and elsewhere, as well as members of religious orders including monks, nuns and priests whom he went out of his way to murder. I'm a bit perplexed that you seem to think that he might be a hero of the community he did so much to destroy.

I'm well aware of many of this thread being Irish, and of the historic distaste for Bro. Cromwell. I was not suggesting he is a hero to many here, just that he is to me and many other Christians. There is a lot of dispute as to his part in the killing of non-combatants, but I think any free from a commitment to a Cathoic Ireland will recognize Cromwell's good efforts to free the British Isles in general from religious tyranny. His state actions were at least no worse than expected for his time. War is a horrible affair, even when conducted for good reasons.

This also reminds us that some folks' heroes are other folks villians. Yossie listed James Connolly as one of his heros; obviously he would not be to any Unionist.

John Doe

Maybe Connolly wouldn't to an upper class unionist, but he contributed an awful lot to worker's rights.
RE Cromwell, I am not Catholic and have in the past been guilty of too much hostility towards the Catholic Church. No-one has ever accused me of patriotism (never mind nationalism). I despise Cromwell because he was a violent murderer. You, wolfsbane, and indeed most Christians would probably claim I'm not a Christian because I follow Christ as a great man rather than a God. You may be right, but I think I'm on even firmer ground claiming you are not a Christian because you would seek to excuse such a murderer. Jesus's message was indisputably one of peace.

Gurgle

John Doe wrote:

I think I'm on even firmer ground claiming you are not a Christian because you would seek to excuse such a murderer. Jesus's message was indisputably one of peace.

... and forgiveness

larryone

If you accept the idea of forgiveness for the actions of our genocidal brothers then where do you draw the line? If Cromwell could be forgiven by God (I believe he was (in a way)) then who goes to hell?

on an asside -
"If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over."

BrianCalgary

larryone wrote:

If you accept the idea of forgiveness for the actions of our genocidal brothers then where do you draw the line? If Cromwell could be forgiven by God (I believe he was (in a way)) then who goes to hell?."

The possibility for fogiveness is there. First Cromwell would have had to recognize his sin and ask for forgiveness. Those in Hell either recognize their sin and don't care to ask, or can't see their sin and see no need to seek forgiveness. I'm sure their is sin that I do but don't recognize but since I asked for forgiveness, I get it.

larryone wrote:

on an asside -
"If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over."

The whole exam answer is very funny. I can't find it though.

larryone

BrianCalgary wrote:

The possibility for fogiveness is there. First Cromwell would have had to recognize his sin and ask for forgiveness. Those in Hell either recognize their sin and don't care to ask, or can't see their sin and see no need to seek forgiveness. I'm sure their is sin that I do but don't recognize but since I asked for forgiveness, I get it.

So do you mean that the only true sin is apathy? A hero of mine I mentioned was Alan Turing. He was a homosexual. (though that is not why he is my hero) He did not believe there was anything wrong or sinful about being a homosexual. Does he then go to hell? (assuming God does see it as sinful (which I dont believe)) Is it all down to apathy, of belief in what is or is not sinful?

larryone

Albert Einstein.

BrianCalgary

larryone wrote:

So do you mean that the only true sin is apathy? A hero of mine I mentioned was Alan Turing. He was a homosexual. (though that is not why he is my hero) He did not believe there was anything wrong or sinful about being a homosexual. Does he then go to hell? (assuming God does see it as sinful (which I dont believe)) Is it all down to apathy, of belief in what is or is not sinful?

It has nothing at all to do with apathy. It has to do with reconciling yourself to God. Ask for forgiveness and you will receive.

It also has nothing to do with what we see as sinful but what God has communicated to us as being sinful. The Ten Commandments were given to humanity as a measure we could use to see if we lived to God's standard. The answer is no. Therefore the need for a way to reconcile ourselves to God, the solution was for God to give himself for that reconciliation.

pbsuxok1znja4r

I'm pretty sure Hemingway is in hell. What with that whole shotgun to the face thing and all. Zing!

Yossie

Roger Casement

Évariste Galois - French maths genius, revolutionary and lover, who lived fast and died young at the age of only 21, following a shot to the stomach in a duel over a woman. (By the time I was 21 I was just about able to tie my own shoe-laces. )

Tar.Aldarion

um, dermot morgan?

Son Goku

Yossie wrote:

Roger Casement

Évariste Galois - French maths genius, revolutionary and lover, who lived fast and died young at the age of only 21, following a shot to the stomach in a duel over a woman. (By the time I was 21 I was just about able to tie my own shoe-laces. )

A wierd side-story on that man's life.

Galois updated the work of Niels Henrik Abel.

Abel died of tuberculosis as soon as he completed his theory of Abelian Groups.
Then Galois came along read about the work of Abel and wrote his entire work on non-Abelian groups the night before the duel that killed him.

The in 1932 along comes Ettore Majorana who updates it even more before disappearing one night from a ship.

Grassmann and Clifford who also extended the theory of groups, also had their fair share of misfortune.

Apparently somebody out there doesn't like group algebra.

Son Goku

Son Goku wrote:

A wierd side-story on that man's life.

Galois updated the work of Niels Henrik Abel.

Abel died of tuberculosis as soon as he completed his theory of Abelian Groups.
Then Galois came along read about the work of Abel and wrote his entire work on non-Abelian groups the night before the duel that killed him.

The in 1932 along comes Ettore Majorana who updates it even more before disappearing one night from a ship.

Grassmann and Clifford who also extended the theory of groups, also had their fair share of misfortune.

Apparently somebody out there doesn't like group algebra.

But group theory is so wonderful.
Playing with a rubik's cube in a lecture...
I'm kinda sorry I didn't take the galois theory module in maths, sounded kinda cool