The Overtaking Lane!!!

smarty · 21-02-2006 11:48am #1

I was driving across the Toll Bridge at the M50 last night at about 9pm. I cam through the toll and was in the middle lane. As we got to the end of the bridge and it is back to a real motorway I moved into the overtaking lane to go passed a guy. There was an old ford fiesta sitting in the overtaking lane going at less than 80 kmph.

I flashed my headlights to indicate to him that I wanted to go past him and he didn't respond. Then about ten seconds later I flashed my lights again. The guy put on his hazard lights and then started to slow down. I pulled into the left lane and went passed him. At this stage he decided to pull in behind me and started to flash his lights.

Now I agree that flashing the lights at a driver asking him to move over may irritate him, but how can you get people to realise that it is an overtaking lane and that they should move out of the way when a car wants to go past them.

KerranJast · 21-02-2006 11:56am

He's the one flouting the rules of the road so screw him. You flashed him to get his attention and if he was too pig ignorant to notice that he was doing 40kph less than the limit and in the wrong lane then it's his tough sh*t.

seamus · 21-02-2006 11:59am

Some people are idiots. You can't really avoid them. In this situtation if the guy decided to chase you and tailgate, I'd take a note of his reg and report him.

I'd love to hear the Gardai laugh when they say "He flashed me first".

MercMad · 21-02-2006 12:01pm

Arent the new penalty points laws going to deal with these idiots ??

smarty · 21-02-2006 12:05pm

MercMad wrote:

Arent the new penalty points laws going to deal with these idiots ??

I don't know, but I think inappropriate use of the overtaking lane should be two points automatically.

BrianD3 · 21-02-2006 12:05pm

Well the thing about the toll bridge is that some of the toll booths "feed" into the overtaking lane whereas others feed into the driving lane. It can take a bit of time for some drivers to sort themselves into the right lane after the booths. Also the drive away from the booths is like the start of a Grand Prix as drivers floor it and jostle for position. If someone finds themselves in wrong lane and in a slow car they can get swamped. Not making excuses for him or anything and it sounds like he was in the wrong. But I would have a slightly different attitude to someone hogging the overtaking lane directly after the toll bridge than in some other situations.

jd · 21-02-2006 12:07pm

Gerry Ryan was giving out about getting flashed on the M50 on his show this morning. He was going on about how he was doing near the speed limit, but his car could go much faster if he wanted. I have a suspicion the smug ****er was in the overtaking lane...

smarty · 21-02-2006 12:09pm

BrianD3 wrote:

Well the thing about the toll bridge is that some of the toll booths "feed" into the overtaking lane whereas others feed into the driving lane. It can take a bit of time for some drivers to sort themselves into the right lane after the booths. Also the drive away from the booths is like the start of a Grand Prix as drivers floor it and jostle for position. If someone finds themselves in wrong lane and in a slow car they can get swamped. Not making excuses for him or anything and it sounds like he was in the wrong. But I would have a slightly different attitude to someone hogging the overtaking lane directly after the toll bridge than in some other situations.

Thats a fair point. I have seen that before.

stevenmu · 21-02-2006 12:09pm

It's not illegal, or especially dangerous, to be going below the speed limit in the overtaking lane, it's just annoying. It is illegal, and dangerous, to flash your lights at somebody just because you want them to get out of your way.

Alun · 21-02-2006 12:14pm

stevenmu wrote:

It's not illegal, or especially dangerous, to be going below the speed limit in the overtaking lane, it's just annoying.

It is, if the inside lane is empty, which I assume it was in the OP's case.

It is illegal, and dangerous, to flash your lights at somebody just because you want them to get out of your way.

Is it?

jd · 21-02-2006 12:15pm

stevenmu wrote:

It's not illegal, or especially dangerous, to be going below the speed limit in the overtaking lane, .

ROTR says drive left, pass right. The cops have pulled people for it (not often though)
jd

smarty · 21-02-2006 12:15pm

stevenmu wrote:

It's not illegal, or especially dangerous, to be going below the speed limit in the overtaking lane, it's just annoying. It is illegal, and dangerous, to flash your lights at somebody just because you want them to get out of your way.

I am afraid you are wrong here.

The rules of the road state that "you stay in the left hand lane unless you are overtaking".

Personally I think this is the problem. Most people don't know the rules of the road, and take offence at being flashed at, even though they are in the wrong.

ballooba · 21-02-2006 12:23pm

Is it actually illegal to flash you lights? What about turning on your right indicator even though your in the right hand lane?

People sometimes cop the second one.

seamus · 21-02-2006 12:25pm

stevenmu wrote:

It's not illegal, or especially dangerous, to be going below the speed limit in the overtaking lane, it's just annoying. It is illegal, and dangerous, to flash your lights at somebody just because you want them to get out of your way.

Yes and no. You could find yourself charged with an offence if you give a misleading signal.

Flashing your lights is a signal to other vehicles of your presence, nothing else. Using them for any other purpose is a misleading signal.

However, it is fair to say that flashing your lights as you approach a vehicle in the overtaking lane of a motorway/dual carraigeway is signalling the vehicle of your presence.

It would also be fair to assume that if a vehicle has not moved from the overtaking lane when there is space to do so, and you are waiting behind them, that they have not seen you, so flashing your lights is a valid signal to bring your presence to their attention.

fletch · 21-02-2006 12:26pm

ballooba wrote:

Is it actually illegal to flash you lights? What about turning on your right indicator even though your in the right hand lane?

People sometimes cop the second one.

Yeh that's what I always do....doens't come across as agressive

stevenmu · 21-02-2006 12:45pm

A few of you are making similar points so I'm going to be lazy and just address a few samples

ballooba wrote:

Is it actually illegal to flash you lights?

Yes, I'm pretty sure it is depending on the circumstances. It's dangerously distracting other drivers on the road, if you do it to warn them of something (other than a garda checkpoint obviously

) then it's ok, but not to get them out of your way.

What about turning on your right indicator even though your in the right hand lane?

I'd imagine that's ok, you're not grabbing the attention of anybody, they'd have to look in their mirror themselves to see. Also you're supposed to indicate while overtaking, I'm not sure how that applies in the overtaking lane, but I think I remember hearing that you actually should.

Seamus wrote:

However, it is fair to say that flashing your lights as you approach a vehicle in the overtaking lane of a motorway/dual carraigeway is signalling the vehicle of your presence.

As I understand it, there is no need to inform a car ahead of you on a motorway of your presence. You only need to do that if there is some danger posed by the car not being aware of you. Otherwise you're just drawing the attention of the driver away from the road in front of him.

Alun wrote:

It is, if the inside lane is empty, which I assume it was in the OP's case.

If it was empty then the OP should be in there too

The op did mention that he was overtaking another car, perhaps this fiesta, slow and all as it was, was overtaking other cars too, traffic can get pretty slowed down in the inside lanes around there. There's also a lot of lane hopping around the N4 flyover, so slowly overtaking can be prudent.

Either way, even if there were no other cars on the road, unless the OP is a Garda then it's not his place to enforce the rules of the road.

el tel · 21-02-2006 1:03pm

stevenmu wrote:

It's not illegal, or especially dangerous, to be going below the speed limit in the overtaking lane, it's just annoying.

If the Micra driver who on Sunday night on the M1 decided to commence a 80kph overtaking manoeuver as I was approaching at 100 yards doing 120kph is reading this, then I want you to know that it is especially dangerous to be going below the speed limit in the overtaking lane.

KerranJast · 21-02-2006 1:22pm

el tel wrote:

it is especially dangerous to be going below the speed limit in the overtaking lane.

No it's not. The speed limit is the maximum legal speed allowed not the speed to be aimed for. What is extremely dangerous is overtaking without checking for an approaching vehicle from behind.

zuutroy · 21-02-2006 1:37pm

fletch wrote:

Yeh that's what I always do....doens't come across as agressive

I think that one comes from the continent. Thats the only place I've ever seen it. I'm pretty sure if I did it, most Irish drivers would just think you're a sap for leaving your indicator on since joining the motorway!

ballooba · 21-02-2006 1:50pm

Combine right indicator with a flick of full beams and you will make up the slowest of drivers.

murphaph · 21-02-2006 2:00pm

One of the 30 odd new offences coming under penalty points is innapropriate use of the overtaking lane by HGV's. Perhaps slooow ass ignorant fcukers should have been included. Motorways are designed to carry traffic fast and safe. Driving slowly on them is dangerous.

The indicator trick is illegal in Germany (probably other continental countries too) as is flashing the lights.

A public awareness campaign needs to be run about how to drive on multi-lane roads.

smarty · 21-02-2006 2:02pm

stevenmu wrote:

The op did mention that he was overtaking another car, perhaps this fiesta, slow and all as it was, was overtaking other cars too, traffic can get pretty slowed down in the inside lanes around there. There's also a lot of lane hopping around the N4 flyover, so slowly overtaking can be prudent.

Either way, even if there were no other cars on the road, unless the OP is a Garda then it's not his place to enforce the rules of the road.

I moved into the overtaking lane because I was going past another vehicle. The fiesta was about 50 metres ahead of me. When he saw me coming, if it was possible, and it was, then he should have moved over to the left lane.

Remember, the rules of the road state that "you stay in the left hand lane unless you are overtaking". I was attempting to overtake the fiesta, therefore I was correctly in the overtaking lane.

I wasn't enforcing the rules of the road. I was attempting to pass a slower moving vehicle.

smarty · 21-02-2006 2:04pm

murphaph wrote:

Driving slowly on them is dangerous.

I would regularly drive on the motorway at less than the speed limit. Between 80kmph and 100kmph. However, I would drive in the left hand lane when doing so. I do not think this is dangerous. If however I was driving at this speed in the overtaking lane, now thats a different matter. But I agree, that ignorance is a big factor and education /puclic awareness is needed.

el tel · 21-02-2006 2:12pm

KerranJast wrote:

No it's not. The speed limit is the maximum legal speed allowed not the speed to be aimed for. What is extremely dangerous is overtaking without checking for an approaching vehicle from behind.

The incident which I recounted, and which was selectively edited and took out of it's intended context when you quoted it, qualifies a situation when it is not safe to be driving slow in the overtaking lane.

As a unqualified example, doing 30kph (ie "going below the speed limit") in the overtaking lane could hardly be considered safe either.

Ernie Ball · 21-02-2006 2:14pm

Although someone clogging up the overtaking lane isn't forcing anyone to undertake them, it is a fact that they will cause people to undertake. That is a dangerous situation caused by inappropriate use of the overtaking lane.

smarty · 21-02-2006 2:19pm

Ernie Ball wrote:

Although someone clogging up the overtaking lane isn't forcing anyone to undertake them, it is a fact that they will cause people to undertake. That is a dangerous situation caused by inappropriate use of the overtaking lane.

Undertaking, or passing on the left, isn't illegal.

I think there are three occasions when you are allowed to pass on the left. I passed the driver of the fiesta on the left. This is completely legal, because the traffic in the left lane was travelling faster than the traffic in the overtaking lane. As long as I don't break the speed limit in this case there is no problem.

Ernie Ball · 21-02-2006 2:27pm

smarty wrote:

Undertaking, or passing on the left, isn't illegal.

I think there are three occasions when you are allowed to pass on the left. I passed the driver of the fiesta on the left. This is completely legal, because the traffic in the left lane was travelling faster than the traffic in the overtaking lane. As long as I don't break the speed limit in this case there is no problem.

That really is not what the ROTR say. If what you say were the case, one could undertake at will (as long as one doesn't break the speed limit) since, by definition, the cars you are undertaking are travelling slower than you are.

In the ROTR, the third case where undertaking is permitted (the others being when the driver ahead is turning right and you are going straight or when you are turning left and have signalled this) is this:

"Where traffic is moving slowly and the vehicles in the lane on your right are moving more slowly than the traffic in your lane."

That hardly applies to the situation you described.

alias no.9 · 21-02-2006 2:28pm

smarty wrote:

Undertaking, or passing on the left, isn't illegal.

I'm afraid it is. It is only legal to pass on the left when the car you are passing is indicating right to turn right at an upcoming junction or where there are multiple queues of traffic and the left hand one is moving more quickly.

smarty · 21-02-2006 2:31pm

Ernie Ball wrote:

That really is not what the ROTR say. If what you say were the case, one could undertake at will (as long as one doesn't break the speed limit) since, by definition, the cars you are undertaking are travelling slower than you are.

In the ROTR, the third case where undertaking is permitted (the others being when the driver ahead is turning right and you are going straight or when you are turning left and have signalled this) is this:

"Where traffic is moving slowly and the vehicles in the lane on your right are moving more slowly than the traffic in your lane."

That hardly applies to the situation you described.

I get your point there. But would 80kmph be considered "moving slowly" on a motorway?

Ernie Ball · 21-02-2006 2:36pm

smarty wrote:

I get your point there. But would 80kmph be considered "moving slowly" on a motorway?

The rules of the road don't define "moving slowly" but I'd guess that the situation envisaged is a traffic jam. If you're in a traffic jam in the left lane and it happens to be moving faster than the right, you don't have to worry about being done for undertaking. Otherwise, you do.;)

Doolittle51 · 21-02-2006 2:40pm

Does anyone know anybody who has been done for undertaking, or is it just another one of those rules that never gets enforced?

I think the ROTR need to be updated with a clear set of guidelines for motorway driving. It's obvious from reading some threads here that there is alot of confusion surrounding motorway driving.

smarty · 21-02-2006 2:49pm

Doolittle51 wrote:

Does anyone know anybody who has been done for undertaking, or is it just another one of those rules that never gets enforced?

Never heard of anyone being done for it, but could it be classified as dangerous driving rather than undertaking?

seamus · 21-02-2006 3:04pm

Guy posted up here a few weeks back was done for it. "Careless driving".

Doolittle51 · 21-02-2006 3:07pm

Why is undertaking regarded as dangerous anyway?

netman · 21-02-2006 3:17pm

MercMad wrote:

Arent the new penalty points laws going to deal with these idiots ??

Laws are only effective if they are enforced.
Going on past experience I expect them to be simply dried ink.

blastman · 21-02-2006 3:20pm

smarty wrote:

Undertaking, or passing on the left, isn't illegal.

Can open. Worms everywhere.

smarty · 21-02-2006 3:31pm

Doolittle51 wrote:

Why is undertaking regarded as dangerous anyway?

If someone was jumping from lane to lane, it may be construed as dangerous driving. Not that it necessarily is.

Gary ITR · 21-02-2006 3:37pm

I drove from Dublin to Dundalk today and I came accross a few cars blocking the overtaking lane. I used the 'turning on the right indicator' method and I must say it worked a treat. People are staring to get used to it I think

ambro25 · 21-02-2006 3:49pm

zuutroy wrote:

I think that one comes from the continent. Thats the only place I've ever seen it. I'm pretty sure if I did it, most Irish drivers would just think you're a sap for leaving your indicator on since joining the motorway!

It is mandatory (as in: FR rules of the road) in France to signal during the entire overtaking manoeuvre, on the motorway just like on a single carriage way. Not many FR people know that one either, mind. That's what FR cops would do you for, if they can't do you for anything else and you got cocky (:( -

-

). Same in BE and LUX. Don't know about DE or elsewhere for sure.

alias no.9 wrote:

It is only legal to pass on the left (i) when the car you are passing is indicating right to turn right at an upcoming junction or (ii) where there are multiple queues of traffic and the left hand one is moving more quickly.

Not so sure about (i) at all, unless there is a filter lane, in which case it's case (ii) really - which is OK.

In respect of (i), I have been in the car with a friend in the UK who was likewise 'undertaking' a car indicating right and slowing down, when the car decided to turn left instead and t-boned us. Insurance eventually settled on a 50-50, after however initially indicating it was my friend's fault as he was the following car and should have stopped/slowed down until the lane was clear of obstruction. Again, that's UK. Might not be so in IE.

skywalker_208 · 21-02-2006 3:49pm

The Fiesta started tailgating you on a motorway after doing 80kph?? easy solution to this.. wait until he is up your arse and stand on your brakes...

guarantee he will fall back....

ambro25 · 21-02-2006 3:55pm

Or you'll be walking for a few weeks while they sort your car's rear end. It's a well known fact of motoring life that Fiestas have notoriously powerful brake systems. :rolleyes:

Ernie Ball · 21-02-2006 3:57pm

In the US, undertaking is not illegal and it's not quite the free-for-all one might imagine. But many if not most of their motorways are 3 lanes or more. If you have 6 lanes going in one direction, it would be absurd to demand that everyone pass only on the left.

If it's legal it's a lot less dangerous than it becomes if it's illegal. What's dangerous about undertaking here is that it usually happens after overtaking is thwarted by a slow and oblivious driver in the overtaking lane. Since there are generally only two lanes, you have faster drivers pulling from the overtaking lane out into the slower lane and back into the overtaking lane. That constant churning of slow and fast is what's dangerous.

skywalker_208 · 21-02-2006 3:57pm

wake the hoors up though...

smarty · 21-02-2006 4:02pm

skywalker_208 wrote:

The Fiesta started tailgating you on a motorway after doing 80kph?? easy solution to this.. wait until he is up your arse and stand on your brakes...

guarantee he will fall back....

I'd prefer to keep my car out of the service centre, regardless of who is paying!

jasonb · 21-02-2006 4:11pm

If the overtaking lane should only be used when you're overtaking a car, then, during peak times, shouldn't all cars be in the left hand lane only?

Obviously, in practice, when traffic is backed up on the M50, cars are in both lanes. But surely all the cars in the overtaking lane can't claim to be overtaking the cars in the left lane, the two lanes ( in my experience ) tend to move at different intervals, and sometimes the left is faster, and sometimes the right. Which mean, as far as I can understand it, that all the cars in the right overtaking lane are breaking the law.

The right lanes in this country are rarely used as 'overtaking lanes' and they're nearly always used as a second lane, or sometimes a 'fast lane'. A lot of drivers who use the lane to overtake, and give out about people going 'too slow' in the lane, never go into the left hand lane themselves, but stay in the right hand lane, perhaps using the logic that they'll eventually catch up with the car ahead of them, and are therefore still 'overtaking'...

J.

Gatster · 21-02-2006 4:26pm

Similar thing happened to me a couple of months ago - where the limit increases back to 120 after Dundrum (southbound on the M50) I increased to 120 in the left hand lane and was approaching a blue Focus estate. I indicated to pull out into the overtaking lane to pass him and for NO reason (ie. there was nothing immediately in front of him) he pulls out but does not increase his speed, causing me to brake suddenly. I flashed him, more out of annoyance than anything and he slammed his brakes on dropping us both down to (no joke here) about 30kph.

On the M50, at 0700 on a Tuesday or something.

He then proceeded to floor it to escape, and I was quite frankly stunned at the danger this bloke had caused (more to other road users). I caught him up as he turned off at Sandyford (I was carrying onto the N11) and he just did the 'stare straight ahead' thing

ballooba · 21-02-2006 5:16pm

jasonb wrote:

The right lanes in this country are rarely used as 'overtaking lanes' and they're nearly always used as a second lane, or sometimes a 'fast lane'. A lot of drivers who use the lane to overtake, and give out about people going 'too slow' in the lane, never go into the left hand lane themselves, but stay in the right hand lane, perhaps using the logic that they'll eventually catch up with the car ahead of them, and are therefore still 'overtaking'...

J.

I would generally stay in the overtaking as I am generally moving faster than the trafic in the left hand lane and generally as fast or faster than cars behing me. I always regularly check all my mirrors whether on motorway, N road or urban. If I see a car approaching behind me I will pull in to the left hand lane as soon as it is safe to do so. If there is no gap I will accelerate until I find one.

KerranJast · 21-02-2006 5:57pm

el tel wrote:

The incident which I recounted, and which was selectively edited and took out of it's intended context when you quoted it, qualifies a situation when it is not safe to be driving slow in the overtaking lane.

As a unqualified example, doing 30kph (ie "going below the speed limit") in the overtaking lane could hardly be considered safe either.

Sorry if I edited your quote but your original post was right about and I was just highlighting the bit I wanted to comment on.

What I was trying to say is that what the Micra driver did wrong is overtake another car when a faster vehicle was approaching from behind (provided you were in the overtaking lane). If you were approaching from behind in the left lane and weren't signalling to move to the overtaking lane then he wasn't at fault (provided of course he signalled to overtake). And of course driving significantly slower than the legal limit on any road is dangerous and is an offence, that doesn't mean everyone should be driving dead on the speed limit though.

stovelid · 21-02-2006 6:07pm

and let him drive into you. You and the tailgaters deserves each other, you clown

skywalker_208 wrote:

The Fiesta started tailgating you on a motorway after doing 80kph?? easy solution to this.. wait until he is up your arse and stand on your brakes...

guarantee he will fall back....

Savman · 21-02-2006 6:41pm

smarty wrote:

Undertaking, or passing on the left, isn't illegal.

I think there are three occasions when you are allowed to pass on the left. I passed the driver of the fiesta on the left. This is completely legal, because the traffic in the left lane was travelling faster than the traffic in the overtaking lane. As long as I don't break the speed limit in this case there is no problem.

You're spot on. Passing on the left is perfectly legal in circumstances where the Left lane traffic is moving faster than Right lane traffic. Of course they probably mean gridlock situations but there's no harm if its moving traffic as long as it sunder the limit

Torak · 21-02-2006 7:00pm

ambro25 wrote:

Not so sure about (i) at all, unless there is a filter lane, in which case it's case (ii) really - which is OK.

In respect of (i) it is illegal in the UK AFAIK to overtake on the left even when the car is indicating right, has slowed down and moved out and is clearly turning right.

It IS legal to do so in Ireland although not without it's dangers.

ambro25 wrote:

In respect of (i), I have been in the car with a friend in the UK who was likewise 'undertaking' a car indicating right and slowing down, when the car decided to turn left instead and t-boned us. Insurance eventually settled on a 50-50, after however initially indicating it was my friend's fault as he was the following car and should have stopped/slowed down until the lane was clear of obstruction. Again, that's UK. Might not be so in IE.

Nasty, Presumably (and hopefully) everyone walked out of it in one piece...

The Overtaking Lane!!!

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