Hand badly played?

The_Chopper

Playing in a live cash game, dealt A 10o on the BB.
Every player at the table limps, I raise to €20, button re-raises to €75, I have the villian down as a tight player but decide to call. (The call in debatable as is the raise, I just hate seeing lots of limpers). We both have about €900 in front of us.

Flop comes down A, 10, 8.
I check, villian leads out with a pot size bet - about 200.
I flat call - knowing I won't be able to push him off a big ace, hoping that a rag falls next card and I can push then. (I don't put villian on a set - he'd been playing ABC poker all night and would check a set).

Turns another 8, I bet 150 he goes over the top all in, of course I call thinking I've trapped him.

What's the villians' hand holding?
Arguably I could have pushed on the flop, but would it be the correct move heads up in a live cash game? How else could I have played this apart from folding preflop?

careca

Well its fairly obvious you were beaten, just by the heading so I assume he has AA, A8 or 1010, although you said you could rule out a set so I am going for A8.

You could possibly have folded to his reraise preflop, considering he said he was tight, but when you called, it was hard to get away from the flop and was just unlucky.

nikorami

I don't want a bad beat. I shove it all in. You checked the for a reason...WHY? I assume you either wanted to trap him with his AK or you think he has flopped AAA or 101010. Well you trapped him if you feel he has anything other than the aforementioned...So shove it in and make him pay. You played the whole hand bad, start to finish from what I gathered(I don't mean that offensively so when you hit you should have probably bet out on the flop, maybe even an overbet...if your man comes back over the top then you need to put him on the set. At no time did you do anything to get you more information as to what he was holding. If you felt he had a big hand due to his preflop raise then muck, if you call be commited to the hand...A108 on the flop, If this guy played the way you say then I give him credit for only one hand AA. Tough laydown...sure. Now the gambler side of me, I shove and if he's got it, he's got it. I assume by the way you posed your ?? here that he had 88 and made quads or an even worse muff and had A8.

cardshark202

The_Chopper wrote:

Playing in a live cash game, dealt A 10o on the BB.
Every player at the table limps, I raise to €20, button re-raises to €75, I have the villian down as a tight player but decide to call. (The call in debatable as is the raise, I just hate seeing lots of limpers). We both have about €900 in front of us.

You really should have folded preflop, the raise OOP was dodgy to say the least.

The_Chopper wrote:

Flop comes down A, 10, 8.
I check, villian leads out with a pot size bet - about 200.
I flat call - knowing I won't be able to push him off a big ace, hoping that a rag falls next card and I can push then. (I don't put villian on a set - he'd been playing ABC poker all night and would check a set).

Turns another 8, I bet 150 he goes over the top all in, of course I call thinking I've trapped him.

What's the villians' hand holding?
Arguably I could have pushed on the flop, but would it be the correct move heads up in a live cash game? How else could I have played this apart from folding preflop?

Anyway, as its played you should definately push the flop. You said yourself that he wouldn't fold a big ace so why would you flat call if he's willing to get his money in with just top pair. You don't put villian on a set so I really don't understand this play at all. To me it looks like villian has hit a house on the turn. Its hard to say what villian has but it looks like TT or 88 to me or maybe he was making a move with T8. They seem the most likely holdings. In fact I'm gonna go with T8.

fuzzbox

Jesus - you played this horribly.
Everybody limps and you have ATo oop, so take a flop. Raising in loose cash games with this hand is bad. It plays badly in a big pot.

Button reraises ... thats weird. Why did he not raise coming in? Now, you view this player as tight ....and you *still* call. Your hand performs very very badly Vs a tight players range of reraising hands ... even though he weirdly limp/reraises from the button. Pass now.

You then hit the flop well, and are only really behind AA/TT/88. Button bets pretty hard at that flop, and you think he would check a set??? Why? I play tight, and I would bet a set here pretty much every time.

Your call says you have at least an Ace. Your lead on the turn says you have at least an Ace and he STILL comes OTT. So - you go broke here, because his range includes AK/AQ too often ... right?

So put your chips in.

Nalced_irl

I would say A8 or something. I think an AA-10 10- or 88 would have raised first time round with that many limpers. Cant explain why an A8 would re-raise but my gut would say A8.

ocallagh

Limp re-raise, I guess he has TT. It's the only hand consistent with his play

NickyOD

The_Chopper wrote:

Playing in a live cash game, dealt A 10o on the BB.
Every player at the table limps, I raise to €20, button re-raises to €75, I have the villian down as a tight player but decide to call. (The call in debatable as is the raise, I just hate seeing lots of limpers). We both have about €900 in front of us.

Flop comes down A, 10, 8.
I check, villian leads out with a pot size bet - about 200.
I flat call - knowing I won't be able to push him off a big ace, hoping that a rag falls next card and I can push then. (I don't put villian on a set - he'd been playing ABC poker all night and would check a set).

Turns another 8, I bet 150 he goes over the top all in, of course I call thinking I've trapped him.

What's the villians' hand holding?
Arguably I could have pushed on the flop, but would it be the correct move heads up in a live cash game? How else could I have played this apart from folding preflop?

I don't like the raise out of the big blind. It's not clever to create a raised pot out of position in a very loose game without a big pair. Calling the limp raises is bad unless you are certain your Ace is live but even then you're not likely to get pad off since no matter what the flop brings one of you will be way ahead of the other.

Postflop why not lead out for less than the pot? On the turn there's no way I'm folding. If he has an 8 so be it. He does not have a house

The_Chopper

In my original posting I said the villian is a tight player - I meant he's a tight player post flop, preflop he's likely to have any holding.
With the reraise pre flop I put him down for KK, QQ or a big ace, all of which I had beaten on the flop. I knew this guy wouldn't fold a big ace and since I was having a night of bad beats, I decided to see one more card and if it were a rag then go for it, giving him only one card to outdraw me. That's my logic behind my post flop pay anyway.

As regards what the villian was holding, it should be so obvious by now, 78 off suit 'WTF'

Norwich Fan Rob

u raised oop to win the blinds i presume, u got re raised to 75, u fold AT, end of story.

(a lot of people with sets would lead on a flop with an Ace in a raised pot, as they will only get paid anyway if u have an ace)

cant see him limping AK, AQ in position intitially.
Your not beating anything else.

Ollieboy

The_Chopper wrote:

In my original posting I said the villian is a tight player - I meant he's a tight player post flop, preflop he's likely to have any holding.
With the reraise pre flop I put him down for KK, QQ or a big ace, all of which I had beaten on the flop. I knew this guy wouldn't fold a big ace and since I was having a night of bad beats, I decided to see one more card and if it were a rag then go for it, giving him only one card to outdraw me. That's my logic behind my post flop pay anyway.

As regards what the villian was holding, it should be so obvious by now, 78 off suit 'WTF'

Horrible starting hand.

I just cant understand his reraise preflop and than the bet on the flop, from earlier post I was going to say 1010. I would have check in the BB, take a cheap flop and than outplay everyone if you hit. He got lucky, but in the short term he'll go broke playing like this.

But its another bad beat story and this is Monday...... Stop please. I've had 2 months of Bad beats and want to give up poker all together.

The_Chopper

To be honest - it's not posted as a bad beat story, I played the hand horrid but thought it was an interesting hand to post.
I thought it was interesting that nobody would flat call the flop - everyone would get there chips in if they'd seen the flop.
I agree A10 is a horrid holding

ianmc38

Fair enough preflop you played it badly, though not the worst ever move. Your problem was you made a dodgy move, hit a monster and didnt get all your chips in. Second he bets that flop i'm pushing.

The_Chopper

If I was to tell you my actual hand holding was AKo and the flop came down AK8, would people still reckon I played this hand horribly?

ianmc38

The_Chopper wrote:

If I was to tell you my actual hand holding was AKo and the flop came down AK8, would people still reckon I played this hand horribly?

Preflop played it fine. Flop and turn play horrible.

Why check-call the flop? Check-raise if he's very aggressive or simply leading the flop are both much better plays IMHO.

pokypoky

What I dont get here is the villain's limp raise from the button when everyone has limped around to him. Its very hard to put him on a huge hand unless hes a total fish. I'm pusing here on the flop.

NickyOD

pokypoky wrote:

What I dont get here is the villain's limp raise from the button when everyone has limped around to him. Its very hard to put him on a huge hand unless hes a total fish. I'm pusing here on the flop.

If you'd played against the chopper you'd know why. He's really easy to push off a hand.

j/k

Ollieboy

The_Chopper wrote:

If I was to tell you my actual hand holding was AKo and the flop came down AK8, would people still reckon I played this hand horribly?

You didnt play the hand that badly, he played it horrible and acted like a fish.

The raise preflop from you was asking for trouble, as you couldn't really call a reraise and one of the limpers preflop could have been limping with KK etc, not betting the flop let him think you had missed or a mid pair etc., and no reraise, let him take the extra card and put a bad beat on you.

He made you make a mistake and you paid for it. He got very lucky. but you'll get your money back from him

cardshark202

Ollieboy wrote:

You didnt play the hand that badly, he played it horrible and acted like a fish.

The raise preflop from you was asking for trouble, as you couldn't really call a reraise and one of the limpers preflop could have been limping with KK etc, not betting the flop let him think you had missed or a mid pair etc., and no reraise, let him take the extra card and put a bad beat on you.

He made you make a mistake and you paid for it. He got very lucky. but you'll get your money back from him

I don't think the villian played his hand that badly at all. He made a move preflop got called, fired a bet on the flop, got called and then got all his money in when he was miles ahead.

NickyOD

Ollieboy wrote:

You didnt play the hand that badly, he played it horrible and acted like a fish.

The raise preflop from you was asking for trouble, as you couldn't really call a reraise and one of the limpers preflop could have been limping with KK etc, not betting the flop let him think you had missed or a mid pair etc., and no reraise, let him take the extra card and put a bad beat on you.

He made you make a mistake and you paid for it. He got very lucky. but you'll get your money back from him

#I tihnk the villain played the hand better.

5starpool

cardshark202 wrote:

I don't think the villian played his hand that badly at all. He made a move preflop got called, fired a bet on the flop, got called and then got all his money in when he was miles ahead.

BB called the bet, didn't raise preflop. He wasn't miles ahead after the flop, he was a favourite on the flop, but not ahead.

Edit: See post below. My cheeks are reddened.

cardshark202

5starpool wrote:

BB called the bet, didn't raise preflop. He wasn't miles ahead after the flop, he was a favourite on the flop, but not ahead.

When the button got called he had his opponent drawing to 4 outs. Thats miles ahead imo.

I think the button played the hand pretty well because at no point in the hand did he make a mistake, apart from maybe misreading the BB on the flop, but he wasn't punished and hence was 'allowed' to outdraw his opponent.

5starpool

cardshark202 wrote:

When the button got called he had his opponent drawing to 4 outs. Thats miles ahead imo.

I am embarrassed to delete my post. I thought I was in a different thread and was posting the response to that. Humblest apologies.

cardshark202

5starpool wrote:

I am embarrassed to delete my post. I thought I was in a different thread and was posting the response to that. Humblest apologies.

Lol no worries. Although your reply did have me worried for a moment.

Ollieboy

NickyOD wrote:

#I tihnk the villain played the hand better.

Better and more aggressive, but also very, very lucky.

I'm just think Nicky, if this had happen to you, would we have been reading another bad beat story? And you giving out about fish etc.

NickyOD

Ollieboy wrote:

Better and more aggressive, but also very, very lucky.

I'm just think Nicky, if this had happen to you, would we have been reading another bad beat story? And you giving out about fish etc.

I definitely wouldn't be giving out about the player with 78, I've done a lot worse with worse cards when trying to take advantage position over the Chopper.
I'd be kicking myself for palying AT like this. I'd play every street differently.

RoundTower

The_Chopper wrote:

To be honest - it's not posted as a bad beat story, I played the hand horrid but thought it was an interesting hand to post.
I thought it was interesting that nobody would flat call the flop - everyone would get there chips in if they'd seen the flop.
I agree A10 is a horrid holding

OK everyone has enjoyed discussing your hand selection preflop. I would occasionally raise here in the Fitz but I wouldn't be calling the reraise.

To answer your question I think calling on the flop is worse than raising. And not because I "don't want a bad beat" or any rubbish like that. Here I want him to call.

He almost certainly has a big ace or a big pocket pair. If he has a big pocket pair he isn't putting any more money into the pot unimproved, as he is "very tight" postflop. So calling just gives him a free card to his two outer, without any upside.

If he has AK/AQ on the other hand, he may well call you on the flop. But if an eight, a ten or a flush card comes off on fourth street he may fold when you want him to call. You're not folding if a king comes, I don't think. So once again raising is better.