The Nature of God

BrianCalgary

hairyheretic wrote:

I don't understand what you're saying here. How is the nature of the trinity and righteousness beyond human understanding?.

The most difficult doctrine to explain or get your head around is the trinity, God being three in one, all equal yet seperate. The bible tells us that it is God's nature yet we can not understand it.

As for righteousness, I don't think man would have been able to conceive of a god who is so totally good that sin can not exist around His full glory.

hairyheretic wrote:

How do you find their actions any different to the ones of your own god? I'm familiar with stories where each has shown human characteristics .. love, hate, anger, sadness, joy, amusement ... where is the difference?.

The emotional characterictics are the same. God created us in His image, therefore He has the above mentioned emotions. Hence our man made gods are made in our image. Where the Greek, Roman and Norse gods differ is in their human actions and reactions. They marry, divorce, have children and seek revenge. Their lives are a veritable soap opera.

PS: IT IS -28 degrees Celsius this am.

hairyheretic

BrianCalgary wrote:

The most difficult doctrine to explain or get your head around is the trinity, God being three in one, all equal yet seperate. The bible tells us that it is God's nature yet we can not understand it.

Well, theologans have been having a good go at it for centuries now. I think people are capable of understanding the concept of the trinity, even if they don't understand the ..mechanics? .. of it.

BrianCalgary wrote:

As for righteousness, I don't think man would have been able to conceive of a god who is so totally good that sin can not exist around His full glory.

Gotcha. I wasn't thinking of righteous as being completely without sin, more the upright moral definition. I understand your comment now.

BrianCalgary wrote:

The emotional characterictics are the same. God created us in His image, therefore He has the above mentioned emotions. Hence our man made gods are made in our image.

I'm not qutie sure I follow you on that one. How does one lead to the other?

BrianCalgary wrote:

Where the Greek, Roman and Norse gods differ is in their human actions and reactions. They marry, divorce, have children and seek revenge. Their lives are a veritable soap opera.

To me, that makes them easier to relate to. I mean no disrespect to how you view your relationship to your god, but to me he always felt distant. Sitting there, watching, never doing anything. I never felt any real connection to him when I was catholic.

My relationship with the Aesir and Vanir is much more ... personal? If that makes any sense Asatruar look upon the gods and goddesses as kin .. very powerful, and somewhat distant, but still kin.

When I pray, or speak with them, certainly I will be respectful, but I'll meet them on my feet, not my knees.

BrianCalgary wrote:

PS: IT IS -28 degrees Celsius this am.

Climb into the frisge, its probably warmer than outside is

John Doe

BrianCalgary wrote:

The emotional characterictics are the same. God created us in His image, therefore He has the above mentioned emotions.

That is interesting, but I find it highly improbable. Does it mention anywhere in the Bible that God has the same emotions as we do? It is often stated that to consider humans the foremost life form on earth is a conceit. I find it far more arrogant to consider that the being that created us all and has power over everything has the same emotions we do. Also, if God doesn't have human actions and reactions, I find it very, very unlikely that he could have human emotions. After all, emoting is in itself a reaction.

Yossie

BrianCalgary wrote:

PS: IT IS -28 degrees Celsius this am.

Burr....... always thought it would be cold in heaven, but not that cold!!:D

Is there anywhere not too far away, say in the 20 - 25 degree region?

BrianCalgary

John Doe wrote:

That is interesting, but I find it highly improbable. Does it mention anywhere in the Bible that God has the same emotions as we do? It is often stated that to consider humans the foremost life form on earth is a conceit. I find it far more arrogant to consider that the being that created us all and has power over everything has the same emotions we do. Also, if God doesn't have human actions and reactions, I find it very, very unlikely that he could have human emotions. After all, emoting is in itself a reaction.

When God creates us in His image. We ask what that means. God doesn't have a body like you or I, because then He would be bound by the physical limitations that we are. God is all-knowing, all-powerful and omnipresent.

He created us with the ability to freely-choose, to love, to think, etc. That is how we are in His image. Emotions aren't just a reaction. I choose to love my wife. Love is a choice, and some people are harder to love than others. We hate by choice. We can choose to think.

The bible tells us that 'God so loved the world that he gave His only son, that none should perish, but have everlasting life' (John 3:16).
So yes, the Bible tells us that God does have emotions. And he desires that we choose to love Him as 'He first loved us' (1 John 4:19)

samb

BrianCalgary wrote:

The bible tells us that 'God so loved the world that he gave His only son, that none should perish, but have everlasting life' (John 3:16).)

Only for what 33years, not a significant sacrafice for an eternal being. Does that mean that ''we're all going to heaven lads, wah-hay''. You mightn't be a father Ted fan;) .

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

To me, that makes them easier to relate to. I mean no disrespect to how you view your relationship to your god, but to me he always felt distant. Sitting there, watching, never doing anything. I never felt any real connection to him when I was catholic.

My relationship with the Aesir and Vanir is much more ... personal? If that makes any sense Asatruar look upon the gods and goddesses as kin .. very powerful, and somewhat distant, but still kin.

When I pray, or speak with them, certainly I will be respectful, but I'll meet them on my feet, not my knee

Damn HH, you beat me to it. That is exactly what I was going to point out. I hated the idea of alway being expected to be on my knees and filled with unworthyness. How could I be expected to love an entity that required me to belittle myself in this way. I could never understand it.

UU

Well, the Nature Of God has always confused when I was a Catholic and still when Christians try to explain it all to me. In short Christianity is a very confusing religion!

I remember reading the Bible once and there was a story in the Old Testament from the book of Genesis about how God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac, for him. God then suddenly changes his mind just when Abraham was about to kill his son. It struck me as God was having a good April's Fool joke like "Ha, ha, I'm only messing! you really don't have to murder your son for me!" I've hated that story ever since.

The Bible totally contradicts itself, making its messages very foggy and conflicting so religious groups like the Catholic Church and other diverse Protestant sects, etc. choose the parts they like as teaching it all or accepting it all would be a paradox. I mean how can a God be "all loving and caring" when he decides to put an end to mankind as they were 'evil' by sending a massive flood as in Noah's Ark?

I do think the more personal Gods of Astru that hairyheretic believes in sounds much better if I were to believe in a god(s). The God of Christianity has always felt very vague, distant and impersonal to me as well as totally degrading me. That is my opinion.

Excelsior

UU wrote:

Well, the Nature Of God has always confused when I was a Catholic and still when Christians try to explain it all to me. In short Christianity is a very confusing religion!

The Christian God is the Creator. We are its Creations. Our opinions of it do not change it or affect it in anyway because it truly exists. You come to every religion with your assumption that God is made in our image and that is why you can't understand Christianity or Judaism.

uu wrote:

I remember reading the Bible once and there was a story in the Old Testament from the book of Genesis about how God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac, for him. God then suddenly changes his mind just when Abraham was about to kill his son. It struck me as God was having a good April's Fool joke like "Ha, ha, I'm only messing! you really don't have to murder your son for me!" I've hated that story ever since.

I love the story. It is astoundingly beautiful and you have utterly missed the point because you have tried to read the Bible as some kind of spiritual guidebook or moral manual. Only two analogies do sufficient justice to it and that is a detective/mystery novel where the plot is driven by the mystery of how God will reconcile his people to him or a love-letter written by God to man.

Abraham was asked to kill Isaac to show how much it must have hurt God to send Jesus on his mission and how frightened Jesus must have been. It is a prophecy to show us how much we matter to God.

UU wrote:

The Bible totally contradicts itself, making its messages very foggy and conflicting

The Bible does not contradict itself. Please support your claim. If you want to make wild assertions about my faith, at least have the manners to do it in the Spirituality forum and not on our turf.

uu wrote:

so religious groups like the Catholic Church and other diverse Protestant sects, etc. choose the parts they like as teaching it all or accepting it all would be a paradox.

I am a member of a Protestant sect and I am a baptised, communed and confirmed Catholic. Both teach the whole Bible. Please support your insulting assertions or I will start editing and eventually ban you. You have a consistenly antagonistic tone to Catholicism that I am beginning to lose paitence with.

uu wrote:

I mean how can a God be "all loving and caring" when he decides to put an end to mankind as they were 'evil' by sending a massive flood as in Noah's Ark?

Because humanity is evil.

uu wrote:

The God of Christianity has always felt very vague, distant and impersonal to me as well as totally degrading me.

The irony of someone writing this on a thread called the Nature of God astounds me. The God of Christianity is a man who calls us his friends, who stands with his arms open waiting for us to embrace him. Fundamentally, only Gods who are alive can be intimate.

nubbintom

Good post Excelsior.

robindch

> Because humanity is evil.

I find this comment of yours unbecoming.

As a human myself, I'd like you to explain why you think that I am evil.

John Doe

I don't think humanity is evil. Maybe we would be evil, without the input of a God. I could accept that, but not that humans as we are now are evil.

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

> Because humanity is evil.

I find this comment of yours unbecoming.

As a human myself, I'd like you to explain why you think that I am evil.

We are all evil in the eyes of God, as: 'All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God' (Romans 3:23)

By man's standard I'm sure you are pretty decent, as am I. But by God's standard we are not.

Hence the need for Jesus.

robindch

> We are all evil in the eyes of God, as: 'All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God' (Romans 3:23)

There's a world of difference between somebody saying that I've "sinned" (whatever definition you choose for that word), versus somebody telling me that I'm evil. The first is a fluffy and loose statement that probably applies to everybody in the world, while the statement which Excelsior made is unjustified, directly prejudicial and, frankly, nasty.

I should also add that it's a unpleasant sentiment which I've heard many christians produce which I find unsettling and deeply insincere from people who spend so much time talking about love of one kind or another. For what it's worth, I believe that the vast majority of people, when given the societal or personal chance to be so (as we are in most "western" countries), are decent, ethical and honorable -- I'd be interested to hear any christians explain why they believe that the opposite is true.

larryone

We are all sinners - that much is certainly true. But to say that we are all evil? I thought evil was reserved by Satan, and those "posessed" by "evil spirits".

I fail see how an all loving , all forgiving, all merciful God can decide to cull all of mankind apart from a few people who were mates with Noah.

Asiaprod

You are capable of a much better answer than this Excelsior. I fear you short-changed yourself here in the process of straitening out some of UU`s less than favorable comments. I think all mankind is capable of evil, I cannot go along with saying all mankind is evil. The story of the Flood well documents that God destroyed the world due to mans evil. That was fine then, I would really like to think that mankind has progressed somewhat since then.

Sub-comment
UU, with all respect, sometimes you do let your mouth get the better of you. I used to do it all the time, but realized it was very unproductive. Cut back a little:) , we are both guests on this forum which is after all a support forum for Christians. As a Buddhist, I actually feel very privileged to be allowed to air my opinions here and engage in dialogue that is productive. I may not agree with everything, but I am certainly not going to go into Attack mode.

Puck

Hello,

Excelsior’s a busy guy, I keep telling him to take it easy but does he listen? No!

My friend calling humanity evil seems to have ruffled a few feathers. This is completely understandable. Excelsior’s the theologian, I’m the baby Christian so I expect to probably get things wrong here or stick my foot in my mouth but I’ll give explaining things a shot anyway.

Ok the Christian belief is that we are broken, all of us. We are all sinners. There are no big sins and little sins, it’s an absolute thing. You are either a sinner – you, me, murderers and other “nasty people”; or you’re not a sinner – God. Therefore, without God, we are all in the same boat, something a lot of Christians need reminding of in my opinion.

I’m not just talking of inhumane regimes, and wars and people doing extreme things because of the situation they are in. This “brokenness” inside people is evident absolutely everywhere you look. We hurt each other’s feelings, we ignore people, we commit crimes, we tell “white lies”, we “look out for number one”. And in case anyone thinks I’m being judgemental or preachy there let me just say that I could replace “we” in the previous sentence with “I” and it would still be true (well except for “I hurt each other’s feelings”, that’s just grammatically incorrect but you know what I mean).

Look around you; are there locks on your doors? Is there a police station in your town? When you pay to get into an event you are given a ticket to prove you paid. Do you drive just a little more carefully when there is a police car nearby? All I’m saying here is that we are not perfect, nobody is. That’s no great revelation. We have all sinned and continue to sin. I sin every single day and I’m no better or worse than anyone. The fact that people are sinners gives us (Christians) no right to withhold love from them because we are just like them, we are all the same and we all need love.

It’s a sad fact that I’m even a little scared to use words like “sin” or “evil” here because a lot of the people you hear using those words most vocally just seem to be hate filled and angry a lot. I don’t know what their problem is but they hurt a lot of people. I guess that they’ve forgotten that we are all in the same boat but I don’t know. All I know is that we are supposed to love and not hate. I’m scared you might think that because I’ve used those words that I hate you or I’m angry. I don’t and I’m not.

Just because you’re a sinner does not mean there aren’t good things about you. The best people I know are sinners; in fact all of the people I know are sinners.

Go easy on me guys, I’m new at this.

Asiaprod

Hi Puck, Thanks for taking time out to reply.

Because humanity is evil.

I think I can probably explain what is causing these ruffled feathers with this statement. This is kind of a blanket statement don't you think? To any non Christian it is bound to upset. Nobody likes to be called evil. I feel that excelsior meant this in a different way, it just came out all wrong. Evil is a very strong word to use, and worst of all, it does not differentiate in levels of evil. I would never compare you to Hitler, he was pure evil and likewise, I would be absolutely appalled if you were to categories me in the same level of evil as him. That would be totally unfair. I think that we are all sinners is quite acceptable, or even your own we are all broken. We are all evil is not.
The second point I would make is that Christianity has a long history of persecuting others under the banner of evil, as they also were. I don't need to go into all of these instances here, we all know them. Claiming that all humanity is evil is just resurrecting all these bad memories. That is the last thing Christianity need to bring to the forefront in this day and age. It will just open the door wider to all kinds of accusations.
In ending, I would say that, yes, Excelsior is very busy doing admirable work from what I hear. He has reputation of being extremely moderate, should I say tolerant, and in light of this reputation he has built to come out with that statement sure did ruffle feathers. Buy him a large double whiskey from me. Tell him I will subtract the value of it from his Karmic balance sheet, which actually looks quite well balanced;) .
Look forward to chating to you more.

Excelsior

I am in a busy spell at the moment and Puck can explain these things better than me.

But Asiaprod, declare me karmically bankrupt. We are evil. I am regarded too highly everywhere I go. People say well meaning crap like the stuff you have written on this thread about me all the time. I know myself better than all of them and I know that if you put me in the shoes of one of Pol Pot's butchers or Hitler's mass murderers, I would do the same. When such a fine, upstanding, tolerant, do-gooder as myself, by your own definition, is able to declare himself flawed at his very foundation, then I think you ought to reconsider humanity's goodness.

Why was it that there were 100,000s of Rwandans who were evil to the bone? Why did the nation of Rwanda suffer so badly from its quota of "evil people"? How come Cambodia? The Former Yugoslavia? The present Northern Ireland? Japan in the early part of the 20th Century? These societies simply moved themselves into positions and circumstances (through evil choices I hasten to add) where a large number of otherwise good people committed atrocities and an even larger number of otherwise good people let them.

There is the potential for evil in all of us. It is made real in primary school when we pick on the weakest one. It is made real in secondary school when we torment the goofiest one. It is made real at college when we callously throw relationships away over trivialities and it is made real, in a small way, every day of our lives.

Let me sum it up for you Asiaprod so you can call the Karmic repossessors: on any given day, any given human being, given the option between a good that is difficult or a bad that is easy, will choose the bad. Not all the time and not all the people- we have good days and bad days. But history, our newspapers and the darkest parts of our hearts we don't even want to look at ourselves nevermind share, testify that there is an evil stalking through us.

I think humanity is capable of the highest good. I think individual humans can achieve great things. I hope to achieve great things. But I know that on a daily basis my actions, even the trainers on my feet, show me to be evil.

Excelsior

As I am momentarily not busy waiting for my admirable coffee to brew, I will take up the point you make about Christianity's history of shame. Point proven for Excelsior I think!

Christianity, Buddhism, The Enlightenment- these are the masterpieces of humanity's civilisation. And they have all in their own way fed pathologically destructive megalomaniacal campaigns of evil. Was it the tenet of Buddhism that drove sectarian violence? Was it the sayings of Jesus that spurred on the Crusades? Was it Newton's Principia that led to Lenin's New Economic Plan? Hell no. It was people.

Individual humans took these otherwise good things and twisted and warped them to suit their own personal, selfish desires. Warping of that which is good is a theological definition of evil. Human beings take ideas, objects and other people and happily turn them to their own evil desires every day of every week. There is not some bacteria called "Evilus Magnificat" that infects some people. We all are capable of it and to varying degrees we all perpetrate it.

No idea is safe. No resource is safe. No person is safe. The religion of Christendom is as good a proof of that as exists.

Asiaprod, who do you think God love more- the murderer or the murdered?

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

But Asiaprod, declare me karmically bankrupt.

Consider it done. I really wish you all the best in life and hope you find what makes you happy. In parting, I thank you for all I have learned from you.

John Doe

Wow, this is a fascinating debate and it really seems to have stirred up some people's feelings... I don't have long here, so I'll just put forward a couple of ideas. Excelsior, you've said that people are capable of the greatest evil and the greatest good. Why then classify us all as evil rather than good? Why not somewhere in between?

Also, isn't use of the word evil to apply to all of humanity meaningless? Everything, as has been said before on this board, only has meaning in comparison to other things. None of us know God on this earth, except through the testaments of other humans. If you do think you know God, then this concept of good rather than evil is in your head, in your mind, and... well I just can't see how it can have any meaning. All of God's acts as detailed in the Bible seem to have a human frame of reference; all of his sacrifices are like those that can be made by humans. This 'good' done by God is the same as what humans are capable of. When you think of God as the only good entity, what do you think of to demonstrate this? Is it something or some things that have also been done by humans?

I think that our ideas of God come from seeing the greatest good that can be done by humans, or perhaps vice-versa depending on your POV, but there is a relationship between the ultimate good that is God and the good that is done by humans every day. I would suggest that maybe humans created God, maybe God created humans but it doesn't matter because both are inextricably linked: God is the best that there is, both an abstract concept of good and all the noble acts that we do.

Maybe we are flawed at our very foundation. But this 1. does not mean that we are necessarily evil (definitely not by the common definition of evil used) and 2. brings us back to the question of why God created us like this. The 'flaw' in humanity, the broken, hurting aspect of us that causes pain to ourselves and others might be the very same part that allowed people through history to create the greatest art, that allowed Dylan to write such poignant songs and daVinci to create his oh-so-human masterpieces. If we didn't have this flaw or this 'evil' I don't think we would be human at all, we would be God. So in a sense, I am agreeing with Excelsior and Puck in that we are all evil as they define it. What I also think though is that using this definition of evil is pointless, where is the contrast? As I have said we only know God through other humans and through ourselves, so we don't really know 'good'. Without good to contrast, evil is meaningless.

I'm kinda glad that we humans are flawed. It allows us to grow, learn and change. Because we can grow, learn and change I think that your comment, Excelsior, about being in the shoes of someone seen as evil was a bit strange. If you or I were transported right now into the body of a machete-wielding Hutu in Rwanda, do you think there is no chance that we could resist butchering innocents? And of course, if you weren't talking about instant transportation but rather becoming that actual person, living his life, then you wouldn't be you! All this is doing is arguing in favour of nurture rather than nature.

The above is a garbled selection of thoughts I threw together in about ten minutes. Please, everyone, don't take it too seriously but I would be glad to see your responses.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

Asiaprod, who do you think God love more- the murderer or the murdered?

Neither, his love is unconditional,
but I bet he respects the hell out who ever has the courage to stand between the two:)
Enjoy your coffee

hairyheretic

I would agree that everyone has the potential to do evil, but they also have an equal potential to do good.

Certainly there will be times when it is easier to take the option to do something wrong. It is our choices that define who we are though. We are our words, and our deeds ... what we say and what we do .. not what we might do, or could do. A potential is only that .. a potential. It may never be, and I don't believe you can condem anyone for something they might never do.

There is plenty of evil out there to see, in all walks of life, but I believe there is just as much (if not more) good. My oppinion, so take it for what its worth

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

I would agree that everyone has the potential to do evil, but they also have an equal potential to do good.

And that is exactly what I wished had been reflected.

"Humanity has the potential for both good or evil, but exercises the latter more frequently"

Excelsior

I think you have the wool pulled over your eyes if you think that on this planet, where 7 million children died last year for a lack of drinking water or food, that there is more good than evil. Human beings spend most of their life being ethically ambiguous. You would like to place that in the credit column of our moral accounts but I think a much more stringent idea of good is neccessary to turn the tide around.

If you leave the acts that unintentionally lead to evil aside then maybe you are right, but I would prefer to make an honest diagnosis of the cancer affecting humanity instead of fooling ourselves that we are doing ok. The blood of history's victims scream at you from the ground and the dark parts of your life you wish you could do over again whisper at night. You cannot escape it. I do not mean to offend or insult when I say that I do more harm than good, that the closest people around me do, and that I think eventually, everyone does.

hairyheretic

No offense taken.

I've never claimed that the world is sweetness and light. I know that there is plenty wrong with it, but the ability for any single person to affect the changes necessary to rectify that is miniscule at best.

The vast, vast majority of people do not have the wealth, power or other attributes necessary that would enable a worldwide change. Its in our power to do a small thing .. give a bit of time or money to a charity for instance. In the overall scheme of things, no, it isn't much ... but its better than nothing.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

but I would prefer to make an honest diagnosis of the cancer affecting humanity instead of fooling ourselves that we are doing ok.

I have always had the utmost respect for your views and opinions, but I must have hope for humanity despite what it has done in the past.
I believe there is equal potential for good and bad, and I will do my utmost to do what is good. Thank you for your honest opinion.

John Doe

Sounds like a long dark night of the soul. If I get clinically depressed and fail to finish my Leaving Cert cos I'm only ever going to hurt people anyway I'm blaming you, Excelsior

Excelsior wrote:

on this planet, where 7 million children died last year for a lack of drinking water or food, that there is more good than evil

Maybe not, but I think that everyone has the potential to do good. And that most people do. Maybe I'll learn better when I'm old and crabbit (not that I'm suggesting anything...)
I think you're describing the condition of humanity really. If we were different we wouldn't be human so it's hard to consider what it would be like. Instead of trying to consider I'll just try to do more good than harm.
If everyone's going to do more harm than good, what's the point of anything? And why would God in his infinite love make us so we are incapable even of improving at all over our lives? I know that I wouldn't do some of the same things now that I would a few years ago, and by any standards the choices I would make now are less 'evil'.

Asiaprod

John Doe wrote:

Sounds like a long dark night of the soul. If I get clinically depressed and fail to finish my Leaving Cert cos I'm only ever going to hurt people anyway I'm blaming you, Excelsior

Don't you dare:eek:
Good luck with the exam, I am confident you will do well.

John Doe

Thanks! And you needn't worry, I've done enough work that quitting at this point would be crazy. Then again, no-one's ever accused me of not being crazy...;)

Illuvatar

We brought evil to ourselves hence Adam & Eve. That changed everything. I have no idea if there's more evil or good on this world, I can't see everyone and what they are doing and if good is overcoming evil (eventualy it will). About the nature of God the best book I can recommend other than the Bible is C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" it's just a plain good book for anyone who has a question on Chrisitanity. He sums up everything for example the reason for becoming a Christian - Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The whole purpose of becoming a Christian is simply nothing else. C.S. Lewis- You can't be perfect but a little Christ is what God asks of us. We have our choices God gave us that most of us make the evil/wrong choice that will hurt others, most of the time out of our sinning habit.

UU

Excelsior,

I apologise to you Excelsior if my comments may have offended you. That wasn't my intention as I was merely expressing my opinion but I suppose free speech doesn't cut it on the Christianity forum at times.

I totally refuse to take back my claims as they are my opinions. I think the Bible contradicts itself and that certain Christian groups interpret the Bible their way so conflict occurs IMHO.

In saying this, the Bible does teach a lot of good but there are aspects I don't agree with.

If you aren't satisfied with my views then that is your problem not mine. Since I've here you've always been quite tolerant and understanding and I've showed tolerance back to you in turn. I think it is unnecessary to making threats of banning me - I wasn't being antagonistic if you thought otherwise.

If you believe that the Bible has no errors in it or that some Christians don't interpret it wrong, I have no problem with that whatsoever as that is your just opinion. I hope that if you're going through a hard time or something that life will pick up for you. I have bad days too where I'm a total grouch and mean person. I hope as a Christian you may show some forgiveness to me.

We all have something to learn and I'll make sure I phrase my words correctly in future so that they're not misunderstood and to back up my claims.

Again, apologises.

Daniel

Excelsior

Let us be clear here: Boards.ie does not offer free speech. It is run and owned by certain people who set out certain rules. Free speech doesn't apply here. You speak to the terms offered by our hosts. Now in this little corner, like every other corner in Boards.ie, there is a local set of rules to encourage appropriate debate that we call a charter.

You contravened the charter by stating an argument in the form of "God doesn't exist so..." or "The Bible is full of contradictions and..." If you wish to make those claims in the future, be prepared to support them or expect moderation.

Restating your posts and wrapping it up in some tedious "It is just my opinion" format won't cut it. Surely it is your opinion for a reason? State them then.

Tar.Aldarion

Excelsior wrote:

I do not mean to offend or insult when I say that I do more harm than good, that the closest people around me do, and that I think eventually, everyone does.

I suppose there is a different level of 'being able to live with yourself' from person to person, a different amount of apathy, I for one, of very few I would imagine, can not do anything I percieve as wrong, so I do not. I don't know what it is like for you, but if you believe you will do more harm than good, do you do something about it and try to change that?
I don't believe in christianity, an afterlife etc or anything, I think I'll be turning to dust in the ground but I want to do what's right, simply because I want to. Many people would not have this want or more accurately, have it at different levels. Also, when people decide to do what is 'right', what is right differs as per the individual, because of religion, personality, up bringing and generally what kind of person they are. I could not live with myself if I was not a vegetarian, if I stole, if I cheated, if I did not help those less fortunate,if I was not etc. Now some people can and what's more, people would have different morals to me even if they did try to do what is right, some people may think it is ok to cheat for an example - others may find it wrong but 'acceptable'.
As christians, I think, for the most part, you have the same ethics as myself- so do you not try to do what is right as per your beliefs, if you say you believe you are doing harm, those that you love are doing harm, why not do something, whatever you can, about it?
I think people can be 'evil' but all that should matter to you is that you are happy with yourself. All that matters to me is that I lead my life by my morals and if you can be happy with yourself, you should go out and do what you think is right. I believe people should practise what they preach!

woot, sorry, little off topic blathering

Excelsior

I believe people should practice what they preach too. Some time in the future I will be an ordained preacher so that will leave me with a lot of practice to do... that I will fail at.

Maybe I can explain it to you with an illustration. tar. makes the bold claim that he does what he thinks is right and doesn't do what he thinks is wrong. Imagine God, at the beginning of tar.'s life gave an angel an iriver and a microphone and told them to record everything tar every said. Specifically, God told the angel to save onto the hard-disc of their computer anytime tar. began a sentence like:

"I hate it when people...."

or

"I don't understand how anyone could..."

or

"I think that is wrong...."

and so on.

Then God asked the angel to flag all the times in tar.'s life when he directly personally contradicted the things that he had said. God, you see, is taking customer feedback on board. People don't like being charged at the end of their life by his admittedly perfectionist standards. So God has decided to base his opinion on people on what they themselves say.

tar. and everyone else, including me and Asiaprod and all the other sincere, genuine gentlemen you meet here and Mother Theresa and Mahatma Ghandi and every other human person, stands condemned as a lying hypocrite in this theoretically imperfect God's eyes.

We stand condemned even by our own terms. While we are all capable of living up to our own standards (and on occasion surpassing them) much of the time, we fail every one some of the time. And that leaves me clear in the honest (but difficult) assessment that we are morally sick. We do what we don't want to do and don't do what we aspire to do, to paraphrase Paul.

Puck

It is a Christian's job to try to be like Christ, even given our limitations we must try. When you love someone you find yourself willing to do, and even capable of doing, things that are so hard you never thought you could do them. My love for Christ, and His love for me, makes it possible for me to try to be like Him dispite all my failings. Christains, including myself, have not done a very good job of being Christlike, for that I am sorry.

Excelsior, what a gloomy way of looking at everything!
Surely if you tell people they are all failures and worthless, they will continue to act that way. Might as well by hung for a sheep as a lamb, I think the phrase is.
Do you regard your statement of "I do more harm than good" with a view of trying to improve, or resigning to it?

People act in ignorance a lot of the time. While this is certainly not a good thing, I would not call it evil.

Tar.Aldarion

Excelsior wrote:

I believe people should practice what they preach too. Some time in the future I will be an ordained preacher so that will leave me with a lot of practice to do... that I will fail at.

Maybe I can explain it to you with an illustration. tar. makes the bold claim that he does what he thinks is right and doesn't do what he thinks is wrong. Imagine God, at the beginning of tar.'s life gave an angel an iriver and a microphone and told them to record everything tar every said. Specifically, God told the angel to save onto the hard-disc of their computer anytime tar. began a sentence like:

"I hate it when people...."

or

"I don't understand how anyone could..."

or

"I think that is wrong...."

and so on.

Then God asked the angel to flag all the times in tar.'s life when he directly personally contradicted the things that he had said. God, you see, is taking customer feedback on board. People don't like being charged at the end of their life by his admittedly perfectionist standards. So God has decided to base his opinion on people on what they themselves say.

tar. and everyone else, including me and Asiaprod and all the other sincere, genuine gentlemen you meet here and Mother Theresa and Mahatma Ghandi and every other human person, stands condemned as a lying hypocrite in this theoretically imperfect God's eyes.

We stand condemned even by our own terms. While we are all capable of living up to our own standards (and on occasion surpassing them) much of the time, we fail every one some of the time. And that leaves me clear in the honest (but difficult) assessment that we are morally sick. We do what we don't want to do and don't do what we aspire to do, to paraphrase Paul.

heh, thanks for the analogy
Damn angel!
Yes , I believe amost, if not all people are hypocrites or will become one.
I used to eat meat as a child, I am a murderer in my own eyes. I'm sure I have more examples where I have made mistakes and such. When it comes to wrong and right you only have your own opinion, some may say lying is always wrong. I wouldn't, sometimes I may lie for the good etc.
Although I am a deontoogist over a consequentialist sometimes what in general is wrong, like lying, is not always so I think I still hold to that.
Whereas some people would regard it as always wrong, so when I say, 'I hate it when people lie' there is a little clause.
Also, if I do something at a time and percieve it to be right, then later think that it is wrong, maybe it is wrong thinking back, but the right thing to do at the time. Wait, i'll leave that point, personal story.
What matters to me is that in my oh so brief years on earth, I have not done anything major to contradict my morals, I am rather obsessive about them and have lost friends because of that, sometimes I think I hold people up to what I want me to be all the time and I shouldn't do that...where is this going, I don't know!

Do you regard your statement of "I do more harm than good" with a view of trying to improve, or resigning to it?

It sounded like resignation to me and that is not a good way to look at things, whatever you feel about humanity as a whole( I detest humans )you should try to better yourself, just yourself, until you are happy with yourself. I'm nnot happy with myself but as time goes on I think I am doing much better and that is what matters to me.

People act in ignorance a lot of the time. While this is certainly not a good thing, I would not call it evil.

Depends if you think evil exists and if you do, how you would define it. I'll let somebody else handle that, it doesn't exist to me.

UU

Excelsior wrote:

Let us be clear here: Boards.ie does not offer free speech. It is run and owned by certain people who set out certain rules. Free speech doesn't apply here. You speak to the terms offered by our hosts. Now in this little corner, like every other corner in Boards.ie, there is a local set of rules to encourage appropriate debate that we call a charter.

You contravened the charter by stating an argument in the form of "God doesn't exist so..." or "The Bible is full of contradictions and..." If you wish to make those claims in the future, be prepared to support them or expect moderation.

Restating your posts and wrapping it up in some tedious "It is just my opinion" format won't cut it. Surely it is your opinion for a reason? State them then.

Ok. I didn't know that Boards.ie was a dictatorship or some sort? I must have missed that when I was signing up . . . . . . If you say so, I'll then make it my responsibility also to condemn anyone who steps over the line (including myself of course) and report them to you.

Now I'm wondering Excelsior what exactly did Jesus teach about free speech?

UU

UU wrote:

Ok. I didn't know that Boards.ie was a dictatorship or some sort? I must have missed that when I was signing up . . . . . . If you say so, I'll then make it my responsibility also to condemn anyone who steps over the line (including myself of course) and report them to you.

Now I'm wondering Excelsior what exactly did Jesus teach about free speech?

Forums generally tend to be dictatorships. Follow their rules or get kicked out.

It's only fair in a christianity forum (well, the religion forums in general) to back up what you say about the subject, particularly if you're insulting it.
Even if it's not a debate forum, "your religion sucks but that's just my opinion so don't call me on it" is pushing things.

UU

bluewolf wrote:

Forums generally tend to be dictatorships. Follow their rules or get kicked out.

It's only fair in a christianity forum (well, the religion forums in general) to back up what you say about the subject, particularly if you're insulting it.
Even if it's not a debate forum, "your religion sucks but that's just my opinion so don't call me on it" is pushing things.

Actually that was very well put bluewolf! Thanks! I suppose if there was too much "water under the bridge" with free speech, wouldn't we be hating each other? I'll make sure of what I say in future just in case it may upset or offend somebody as that wouldn't be too nice, eh? :rolleyes:

UU

UU wrote:

Actually that was very well put bluewolf! Thanks! I suppose if there was too much "water under the bridge" with free speech, wouldn't we be hating each other? I'll make sure of what I say in future just in case it may upset or offend somebody as that wouldn't be too nice, eh? :rolleyes:

I can hardly tell how much of that was sarcasm

Rather than it being a question of nice, it's more a question of backing up what you say. *shrug*

Excelsior

I guess it is a gloomy vision as I have laid it out Bluewolf, but that is a partial view of it.

The thread is about the Nature of God. Christianity argues that God is a lover who (literally the Hebrew reads) woos us back into relationship with him. Christianity argues that God felt the pain of rejection when humans (individual humans and humanity as a whole) sought to set themselves up without reference to him and was still eager to endure the pain involved in reconciliation. Christianity argues that God has come with a human face and a human nature. The Bible talks about our bodies as jars of clay, in which case Jesus is a jar battling to contain a tornado inside it, he is the force of an earthquake in a test-tube, he is wild flame become flesh. The full view is that humanity has gotten lost, gone astray and rejected our true calling but that which gave us life has come to live amongst us to set things right. To remix the Bible again, the world is a dark place lit here and there by candles of righteousness, but now the Son has risen and the darkness cannot overcome it. There is no doom and gloom in my full picture because God has come to bridge the gap between who we were made to be and who we turned out to be.

I don't mean to condemn people to languish in the futility of our failings but neither to fool people that they can make it good for themselves. Christianity is for failures. Therefore, Christianity is for everyone. It is not about us having our **** together but about God coming to put everything back together again. The world is ruled by evil but I am not gloomy, I am kept sane because the time is coming and is already here when the only force that can set things right has begun to move.

robindch

> The world is ruled by evil

Hmmm... We've been close to here before, but I still contend that your understanding of bad stuff and why it happens is way off base. To clear it up, perhaps you could define what exactly you mean by "evil" and "ruled by evil" in straightforward terms without using metaphor or recourse to religious imagery or terminology?

Excelsior

Excelsior wrote:

I don't mean to condemn people to languish in the futility of our failings but neither to fool people that they can make it good for themselves. Christianity is for failures. Therefore, Christianity is for everyone.

This is what I dislike most about it, to be honest.
I prefer taking responsibility for our actions and realising they have consequences. I suppose that's why I like buddhism.
We'll never sort anything out if we sit around thinking "well there's no point trying because I'm a failure, so let's let someone else sort it out for me". If I was to apply that to my life, I'd probably end up what, dropping out of college? etc.

Excelsior

The world is ruled by evil

Systems and structures do the most damage to people. The structures and systems are never wholly intended to prosper some at the cost of others but even with the best of intentions, people end up victims of impersonal forces set in motion by others miles or continents away. Bueraucratic evil, whether it is inaction over Rwanda or Yugoslavia or a culture of failure propogated by inefficient social services in Derry is in a sense, ruling the world.

Alongside that we have personal evil. This is the stuff that folk like Asiaprod accept does happen to some unfortunate people. This is the evil that marks the serial killers and the other demons of our society. This evil, it could be argued, extends its grip through fear far more than it does through its actual victims. Through tabloid reporting and urban myths, the effect of this kind of evil can grow much greater by stifling people and frightening people who logically will never be subject to it. So the personal evil gets appropriated by systemic evil.

We could keep mapping out how the world ends up in such grief. I think NT Wright put it well when he said that those who have seen the most brutal evil committed see clearly that evil is not simply the sum total of bad and selfish decisions that end up in a very big act of evil. Rather, evil perpetuates itself in an ongoing cycle. The pride of one leads to the jealousy of other. It is hard to write about this without sinking into a parody of Yoda, but what I mean when I say the world is ruled by evil is that the dominant force that marks human existence is a self perpetuating destructive force that overwhelms us.

Bluewolf wrote:

I prefer taking responsibility for our actions and realising they have consequences. I suppose that's why I like buddhism.
We'll never sort anything out if we sit around thinking "well there's no point trying because I'm a failure, so let's let someone else sort it out for me".

I understand where you are coming from. I think I have misrepresented myself. Christianity obviously is preoccupied in the day to day with being a positive force in the world. Christians are expected to take responsibility for their actions and indeed to stand in the place of those unable to assume responsibility for their actions. But I guess the crucial thing I have not communicated well is that the source of that endeavour is found in Jesus, coming as God, to sort out what we have made a mess of, as we couldn't fix it ourselves. Jesus called himself a surgeon once and Christians as recovering patients of the Great Physician are called to enter his medical school to stop the cycle of illness I have described above.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

Alongside that we have personal evil. This is the stuff that folk like Asiaprod accept does happen to some unfortunate people.

No Excelsior, people like asiaprod accept that ALL people have some personal evil deep within them. This is a failing of humanity.

what I mean when I say the world is ruled by evil is that the dominant force that marks human existence is a self perpetuating destructive force that overwhelms us.

Now there speaks the Excelsior I know and respect. Yes I agree with this, but people like asiaprod do their very best to accept they have this tendency within themselves, just as they also have the ability within themselves to do great good, and they do everything they can not to let this evil out. They face it down and beat it. It aint easy, they make mistakes, but they get back up and come out fighting.:)

Excelsior

Well people like Asiaprod (was not meant as an insult but as shorthand for decent folk with common sense, you understand) have to struggle with how very few people are beating it down if we are living in a world as decrepit as ours?

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

was not meant as an insult but as shorthand for decent folk with common sense, you understand

I never thought for one moment that you were being in anyway insuting. I know you would never stoop to that level. And before you protest, that is one of the reasons I respect you. Thats not optional, thats something you earn:)

Rev Hellfire

Asiaprod wrote:

No Excelsior, people like asiaprod accept that ALL people have some personal evil deep within them. This is a failing of humanity

I’m certainly not going to tell you what you believe.
But the problem I have with this statement, the idea that humanity is somehow a damaged creation burdened down with this evil side, is simply something I don't believe.
Certainly we all have an equal potential for both good or evil, but in reality there are very few, if any wholly evil people. Few people actually consciously do evil acts thinking 'ohh I'm so evil' while twirling their moustache, the results of their unthinking or misinformed actions may result in an evil outcome, but the person themselves is rarely ‘evil’. I think its an importent distinction.