Railcars Being Removed from Sligo Services

Transport21 Fan

Was talking to a local politician this afternoon and the 2900 COMMUTER railcars are to be taken off the Sligo line. All working to Sligo will revert back to loco-hauled coaches.

There was a massive number of complaints from passengers. The toilets in particular were a major issue with elderly people being thrown around inside them while they were rocking back and forth while the train was running. The heating was insufficient once the cold weather kicked in after Christmas (and bear in mind it has been a very mild winter). The lack of seating and tables were another major issue. I myself was served a cup off coffee off the snack trolly to me on the floor because there was no table of anykind in the section I was sitting in.

Did they really think that people would be so dumb that they would be fooled so easily. The order for the new Inter-City cars on the Sligo route was a PR damage control exercise and apperently the Government were furious at IE management due to the huge public outcry in Sligo.

Question is, who in IE management was responsible for this and when are they getting sacked?

BuffyBot

The toilets in particular were a major issue with elderly people being thrown around inside them while they were rocking back and forth while the train was running.

Hmmm..as opposed to being buffeted gently in the old ones?

The heating was insufficient once the cold weather kicked in after Christmas

Define "insufficient" - one persons cold is another persons warm

The lack of seating and tables were another major issue. I myself was served a cup off coffee off the snack trolly to me on the floor because there was no table of anykind in the section I was sitting in.

Don't all 29xxx sets have at least a seat back table?

The order for the new Inter-City cars on the Sligo route was a PR damage control exercise and apperently the Government were furious at IE management due to the huge public outcry in Sligo.

The new Inter-City rail cars were in the pipeline anyway from how I understand it. As for the Government (as a unified whole) being "furious", that seems to be nothing but hearsay/speculation.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think the 29xxx's are ideal for the Sligo line, but this issue (if it is an issue) smacks of mountains and molehills

dr zoidberg

I've never seen a 29K that didn't have tables at least built into the back of the seat in front. Nor have I ever had a problem with the heating, and I get those trains every day. They shouldn't be used for Sligo journeys but still aren't that bad at all in my experience.

Transport21 Fan

The facing seating compartments at the driver cab ends had no table of any kind on the rail cars I took. I felt really bad for the trolley guy having to bend down to put a cup on coffee at my feet like I was in a middle eastern country or something. Not only was it embrassassing for him, but he was trying to stablise the trolly as it rattled all over the place. Hardly safe.

The 2900's are excellent railcars - but only for the job they are designed for. Short hop commuter.

Nothing wrong with the Mk2s other than they are now old. I have even more respect for them now that I see how the wonky track on the Sligo line affected the 2900's in a totally different way. OnTrack 2000 was little more than a cosmentic upgrade and not a real track upgrade programme at all. The 2900's on the InterCity routes brought this to light.

3 hours of double doors opening and closing lets in a lot of cold and draughts, and heat out from the open, non-vestuble layout (Mk2s have a sealed compartment between the outside and the seating area for a reason) and them being stabled overnight on Sligo Quay chilled them nicely for the morning trains. Took until Mullingar until you felt the heat.

If anybody made a mountain out of a molehill it was certain spoofers in CIE management who not only said that they were Inter-City spec in the media OVER AND OVER again, but told people who pointed to the COMMUTER stickers all over them that they were not Communter railcars and that they were wrong.

Anyways Sligo is earmarked for the first batch of the new Inter-City railcars so something good came out of this debacle.

murphaph

The flip down tables were removed by IE on many 29000 sets as an anti-vadalism measure (presumably). The problem is that the 29000 is a common fleet so they couldn't ensure when a set was deployed on IC duty that it would have tables. This was all a big mistake.

I hope your source is reliable T21Fan.

Anyone who thinks a commuter railcar with side opening doors is remotely suitable for IC duty is very naiive, and I'm a big fan of the 29000 class when they are deployed as per their design spec.

daymobrew

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Question is, who in IE management was responsible for this and when are they getting sacked?

Write to IE management and ask who is responsible. I doubt that they read this forum and the concerns expressed here.

If you write and explain your concerns then no one can later say "I didn't know".

MarkoP11

29000 units will remain on the Sligo line, the timetable requires 3 train sets, 4 on Friday. At best IE can find 2 MK2d sets

The second MK2d set may be restored to service, leaving 4 of the 10 daily services as 29000 operated. Thats going back to the way things where in January

However on Friday there is an extra service at 15:55 and the cravens coaches have been withdrawn which means that there will be an extra 29000 service on Friday

The letter was sent in August 2005, IE management responded with the typical the 29000 units are great line, have the letter somewhere. Sligo is not first on the list for the intercity railcars, in fact there is no list but Waterford for operational reasons would be the first to switch. The intercity railcars for Sligo come courtesy of the National Roads Authority

http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/sligo/

I would emphasise the fact local politicians in Sligo cried foul when second hand stock from the Cork line was proposed

Person responsible
Michael Power
Service Planning Manager
Iarnrod Eireann
Connolly Station
Dublin 1

Transport21 Fan

Of the 3 sets needed for Friday I have been told the 2900's only go as far as Longford? The two other services to Sligo town itself will be loco hauled.

Not all Sligo politicians complained about the Mrk3s (just like not all of them are pro WRC) - only the usual whingers and media junkies. Most would have been perfectly happy with Mk3s - the problem is that CIE management handled it wrong. What they should have done was painted a set of Mk3s in the new Inter-City livery and the locos (yes I know it's ugly) and sent them to Sligo to let people see them. There were already Mk3s on the Sligo line operating the Sunday evening services and has been for years now. (a push-pull set with no catering or trolley service) - so people in Sligo are aware of Mk3s are. The Mk3s driving trailers in the new livery would have looked like new trains. A paint job and a refurbishment on them like they did on the Waterford rakes and everybody would have been happy.

As for Sligo not getting the first batch of railcars, this is what this guy told me and he had been in a meeting with the DoT about it and well, we all know that IE management make up how to run the rail network as they go along, and in the last few years alone they have been changing their minds on the fly concerning dozens of issues. Sligo was not meant to be getting these at all at one point, now they are...

The major issue on the Sligo line is and always will be the replacement of Shannon Bridge and making it strong enough for all types of train to use it.

Nice to see the NRA have paid for the Sligo railcars. Now were has all them millions from property sales which were to be reinvested in rail gone then? Why are the NRA paying for new Sligo railcars when they have sold off and made millions from railfreight yards?

Transport21 Fan

from the Ocean FM site

New Sligo to Dublin train breaks down for the first time Feb 16, 10:19 am

The new train on the Sligo to Dublin rail line has broken down this morning.

The 6.50 a.m. train from Sligo station failed to operate this morning and Iarnrod Eireann personnel were forced to replace it with one of the older trains to make the journey to Dublin.

The much anticipated new carriages, the 2900 series, were introduced on the line last December.

However, they have already been criticised as being unsuitable for three hour journeys between Sligo to Dublin.

Passengers on the line also lodged complaints last night on the evening train from Dublin to Sligo, which they claimed had no heat.

This morning's train eventually left Sligo 40 minutes late.

Iarnrod Eireann spokesman, Barry Kenny, denies this morning's incident is a sign of things to come with the new carriages on the line.

Back to the Sligo & Leitrim News index

Victor

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The toilets in particular were a major issue with elderly people being thrown around inside them while they were rocking back and forth while the train was running.

Aren't there hand rails?

DerekP11

Platform 11 highlighted this issue to IE at the tail end of last summer. We were told then that at least one set of the new inter city railcars would be allocated to the Sligo line. At the time IE hoped the Government would continue funding to increase the fleet of Inter City railcars. Over the christmas holiday an IE press release, confirmed that this additional order was made, which will displace 29000s from the Sligo line.

However, it is blatantly obvious that the 29000 series is not up to the job. While it is another short term measure, the short comings were always going to be obvious. The release of heat and influx of cold air at stations, when doors open is extremely noticeable. Furthermore, the engine noise, with doors open and idling at stations is mond numbing.

It is fair to say that Sligo politicians were up in arms about "second hand trains from the Cork line". It is well documented. Displaced MK3s from the cork line could have mantained a really decent service on the Sligo route until the IC railcars were fully deployed. One can wonder how much rail traffic the Sligo line is losing as a result of these "new" but not very "suitable" commute trains.

And thats what they are....commute trains.

Michael Power is the man to write to, if you wish to air a grievence, not P11, as we might actually reply to you.

More anon.

dingding

Also the timetable needs to be improved with some direct services getting you to Dublin from Sligo and visa versa for 9:00. It is not possible to get a full working day in Dublin, unless you drive to longford and get the train then.

How does the train take 3 houes when you can do it bu car in 2.5 hours traffic permitting

murphaph

dingding wrote:

How does the train take 3 houes when you can do it bu car in 2.5 hours traffic permitting

The train has to stop and start and the M4 is straight.

corktina

murphaph wrote:

The train has to stop and start and the M4 is straight.

are you sure,? i thought it was simpler than that?:)

SeanW

T21 fan, I hope your source isn't taking this piss because this is bloody great news. The 29Ks are horrible trains and should be confined to very short journeys < 1 hour.

I had the displeasure of using them on the Longford service a few times, and they shake like a drunk monkey on steroids. And that's the least of their problems. Its totally inexcusable.

A Dub in Glasgo

Communter trains are not Inter City trains, even the most novice railway company will tell you that

orbital83

Not sure about this Transport21...
Saturday 25 February, got the 17.00 service from Dublin (Mark 2s).
Lighting and heating failed just as we left Connolly.
We were told by the guard that the trains weren't being maintained properly any more "as they are about to be withdrawn".
The problem was down to a faulty cable - light, heat & catering was restored at the first stop (Mullingar)

Overheard the usual conversation on board during that journey too...
"did you get the early train up this morning? [06.50 29000 set] oh god it was so cold, especially when the doors open, no heating at all and the seats are so hard and straight, these old trains are so much better."

And these were no trainspotters let me tell you.

Just goes to show you don't know what you have till it's gone

SeanW

I was on the same train, and yes, I also heard from the conductor a similar story "this is their last week"

Transport21 Fan

I agree JohnJ, there has been a cynical attempt by IE management to let nature deal with the MK2s ever since somebody (everbody) in Sligo pointed to the COMMUTER stickers on the side of the 2900's. I have been on some Mk2 sets which were filthy and neglected.

There is absolute murder going on in Sligo over the 2900's at the moment. Loads of media coverage and radio call in shows with people complaining. I have never seen anything like it.

IE management make the RPA look respectable. The amount of ass-covering that is going on is amazing. Should be interesting to see what comes of this. But the story going around remains that the 2900's are to be quietly spirited away soon. The heating on the early morning Sligo trains is shocking. They 2900's are ice boxes until Mullingar. Sitting on the quay all night at Sligo exposed to the Northwest wind is the problem.

The 2900 circus really should result in some heads rolling at IE management. The way they have handled this from day one has be bizzare to say the least. Meanwhile are WestonTrack (the voice of Western rail) got on this issue in anyway? Nope, because WoT is not a railway lobby in any real sense.

John J wrote:

Not sure about this Transport21...
Saturday 25 February, got the 17.00 service from Dublin (Mark 2s).
Lighting and heating failed just as we left Connolly.
We were told by the guard that the trains weren't being maintained properly any more "as they are about to be withdrawn".
The problem was down to a faulty cable - light, heat & catering was restored at the first stop (Mullingar)

Overheard the usual conversation on board during that journey too...
"did you get the early train up this morning? [06.50 29000 set] oh god it was so cold, especially when the doors open, no heating at all and the seats are so hard and straight, these old trains are so much better."

And these were no trainspotters let me tell you.

Just goes to show you don't know what you have till it's gone

SeanW

West On Track ARE a real rail lobby. Just a Mayo one. They don't give a fúck about anywhere else including Sligo and anyone who believes they do needs a serious reality check.

Any damn fool with 1/4 of a brain could see this coming 10 miles away. Except Irish Rail Management and "West" (a.k.a Knock Airport) on Track.

And yes, it is very possible IE management is taking a scorched Earth policy to the Mk2ds, I predicted as much late last year.

I was on the train with the failed lights. The last time that had happened to me was in the mid 1990s! IE is definatley messing up the Mk2ds on purpose to play up that whole "life-expired" crap that I never bought from the first time I heard it.

orbital83

My fears have been proven justified... there's now only one Mk2 set left on the Sligo line... the 1700 ex Connolly and 0850 ex Sligo set having been replaced by a 29000 class railcar.

The other Mk2 is to go this week.
So it's all 29000s from then on except perhaps the FO & SuO trains.

Tonight's 1700 ex Connolly under the new traction kept reasonably well to schedule, but no 5-10 minute dwell times in order not to leave early, which you would have seen regularly in the old regime.

It was an 8 car set, with no shortage of seats leaving Dublin. Doubt the same could be said for Bus Eireann!

Only one catering trolley. Can't say whether it swapped between the 4-car segments at stations. There were no announcements notifying a catering service.

SeanW

Yes, John J, you are correct. I heard the comment about how "this is their last week" last week, and when I got on the train at this morning I had hoped - against VERY vain hope that someone in Irish Rail's offices had got their heads out of their rear end and climbed down from this madness. That hope of course was dashed at 5PM :mad:

I'm with T21 fan on this one - when is the person(s) responsible for this going to be fired?

Red Alert

All of this asks the question of where the Mk3 sets displaced by the two new cork push-pull sets are going anyway?

Up until a few months ago I'd assumed there were no Mk2 sets left at all. The 2900's a total disgrace, they are incredibly loud and have a hydraulic drive instead of an automatic or diesel/electric tranmission which makes them louder still.

I had the misfortune of being on a transfer train from Limerick Junction to Limerick and I never want to see a 2900 again.

MarkoP11

Must have been a horrible walk as a 2900 never did that run:D , thats a 2700 which is best of the bunch in comfort terms. Compared to a automatic gearbox the hydraulic avoids the horrible gear change effect

The decision to go railcar to Sligo was when John Meagher was in charge he is now the boss of Dublin Bus

When the first new Cork train finally enters service one MK3 set will be withdrawn for heavy maintenance, subsequently 2 sets will be deployed on the Belfast line.

Several MK2d coaches are to be withdrawn and those remaining are to be deployed on low mileage services, i.e. only one out and back trip per day

IE have refused to back down but next week is a whole new game with no old trains left

Transport21 Fan

http://www.oceanfm.ie/onair/sligoleitrimnews.php?articleid=000002669

Iarnrod Eireann management to be summoned to Council meeting over condition of Sligo rail line carriages Mar 07, 1:36 pm

Management of Iarnrod Eireann are to be asked to attend a meeting of Sligo Borough Council to discuss problems with the new rail carriages on the Sligo to Dublin rail line.

Councillors were unanimously critical of the service at their meeting last night, claiming the newly introduced carriages are suitable for commuter purposes only, and not for a three hour journey between Sligo and Dublin.

Raising the matter, Labour councillor, Jim McGarry, said he had been inundated with complaints from members of the public concerning the new service.

He says he doesn't accept Iarnrod Eireann's assurances of an even better service next year.

He's been outlining some of the problems with the new carriages.

DerekP11

Are these the same councillors who were happy to have their photo taken next to a railcar on the platform in Sligo, last Summer?

http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/sligo/

We told you so.

jd

I had the folks up from Wexford last weekend. They are not too impressed with the railcars. At the very leat, they could do without the draughts at stops....
jd

Transport21 Fan

I think it was only one councillor who demanded that no Mrk3s for the SLigo line as they were "hand me downs". The rest did not AFAIK. I don't have a problem with them having their photo taken with the 2900's becuase honestly they did not know any better.

In the run up to the 2900, I made a lot of phone calls up here (as West on Track are not a rail lobby so it did not concern them) and I got a fair hearing from all. They were mainly surprised that the 2900 were not Inter-City trains as they like me, fell for the Irish Rail management lie that they were.

Regardless of how the polticans are playing this (we all know that's how the game works) the bottom line remains who are the IE managers behind this? Especially considering that IE management on a whim provided a British trainspotter with a pair of old banger locomotives (unfit for regular service) which they tried to sneak on a regular Sligo service on the sly while all this was going on. Even though the ordinary passenger on the service paid for non-trainspotter special.

The IE managers behind the Sligo farce really should be removed and replaced with professionals who do not assume that people in Sligo, Longford and Mullingar are mindless eejits who can't read the word 'COMMUTER' on the side of train.

These are the real culprits - the Sligo polticans are just being what politicans are by their nature.

KC61

Red Alert wrote:

All of this asks the question of where the Mk3 sets displaced by the two new cork push-pull sets are going anyway?

Up until a few months ago I'd assumed there were no Mk2 sets left at all. The 2900's a total disgrace, they are incredibly loud and have a hydraulic drive instead of an automatic or diesel/electric tranmission which makes them louder still.

I had the misfortune of being on a transfer train from Limerick Junction to Limerick and I never want to see a 2900 again.

The Mark 3 sets displaced off Cork will in the medium term be needed to operate the additional bi-hourly stopping services to/from Limerick that are being introduced from next December. One set may revert to a direct service to/from Tralee. As it is carriage availability is at its absolute max with 12 Mark 3 sets in operation. There are no spares on hand, so when the Mark 4 stock starts we will revert to the pre-December 2005 situation with a full maintenance cover rake and the executive train being spare.

In the longer term some will, as Mark says, go onto the Belfast route, but that will not happen until the arrival of most of the regional railcars which should, incidentally, start on the Sligo line sometime next year.

The Mark 2d sets will be required to operate as follows for the medium term:
2 - Galway route
1 - Waterford route
1 - Athlone commuter
3 - Friday only services to Sligo/Tralee/Ballina and (probably) the Ballina shuttle

So for the moment with all the Cravens being withdrawn there's little or no likelihood of anything else visiting Sligo unfortunately, as the 2900s are patently not suited for such a long journey.

As for Limerick/Limerick Junction - the shuttle is operated by 2700 Class DMUs quite effectively - There are no 2900's in Limerick so I think you're mixing the DMUs up. I'm not sure what the problem that you had with this service - the 2700s do a good job on Limerick local services and on the line to Waterford and Rosslare from Limerick Junction and are well maintained in Limerick.

SeanW

Irish Rail should seek to rent the Mk2f "Gatewick" set from NIR. They aren't using it and it's not doing anyone any good sitting in Adelaide Yard or wherever gathering dust while the Republican lines are dying for the want of decent trains.

BuffyBot

As NIR don't own those carriages, I doubt they can sub-let them to IE

spacetweek

trainuser wrote:

The Mark 3 sets displaced off Cork will in the medium term be needed to operate the additional bi-hourly stopping services to/from Limerick that are being introduced from next December. One set may revert to a direct service to/from Tralee. As it is carriage availability is at its absolute max with 12 Mark 3 sets in operation. There are no spares on hand, so when the Mark 4 stock starts we will revert to the pre-December 2005 situation with a full maintenance cover rake and the executive train being spare.

Please excuse my ignorance but I'm not a train expert so I'm not sure of the difference between Craven, Mk2, 29000, etc. Do I take it that not all old trains are being withdrawn and replaced with the new fancy ones - that some legacy locos will still be needed? I thought they were ditching all the old stock in one fell swoop?

SeanW

I'll explain. Sorry for the technobabble. Let's start with the coaches.

The "Cravens" are the oldest passenger trains on the service today, and are about to be pulled completely from everywhere. These trains have a really dickensian look and have openable windows. They cannot be pushed in revenue service. The Cravens date from the 1960s and are have their heating and lighting powered by Mark 1 generator trailer vans which date back to the 1950s!

The Mk2d is short for Mark 2 D, which means the 4th generation (D) of a Mark 2 class carriage. The Mk2d have sealed windows, the first coach sets on Irish Rail to have sealed windows and air-conditioning. They look similar to the main batch of Mk3s on the exterior only they have a black roof. The Mk2d are in conditions varying from near-life expired to frightenly bad. Some have already been pulled from service while others are being phased out but many will hang around for a year or two.

Mk3 means Mark 3. This is the order of coaches from 1984-1989. There are two types of Mark 3 coach sets on the Irish system - locomtive-hauled-only Intercity carriages and push-pull (meaning a locomotive can either pull them by the head, or in reverse, a driver can to go a cab on the last coach and control the train from there, the locomotive pushing the train from behind. The Mk3 Intercity fleet has sealed windows, the Mk3 push-pulls have openable windows because they have much less onboard generator capacity and can't use aircon.

The new Cork trains were initially called Mk4 (Mark 4) but that is technically wrong because that indicates that these, like the real Marks, were built by BREL in England (were actually built by CAF in Spain)

P11 uses the term CDE (Cork Dublin Express) for the new Cork trains.

The trains used for the Enterprise are DeDietrich coaches from France, dating back to the mid-90s and are push-pull operated. These have no onboard generators and draw power from the locomotive for heat, aircon and lights.

In the years since 1994, Irish Rail has purchased mainly diesel railcars (Diesel Multiple Units) which each have their own engines. This is more flexible, but DMUs are usually only suitable for short journeys generally, particularly our lot.

There are 4 orders of DMUs in the past 10 years, 14 (class 2600) railcars from Japan, a similar number again (class 2700) from France, an order of (2800 class) from Mitsui in Japan. The largest class fleet is the most recent order, those of the 29000 class (formerly 2900) from CAF in Spain.

monument

SeanW wrote:

The "Cravens" are the oldest passenger trains on the service today, and are about to be pulled completely from everywhere.

The Ballina branch line?


The photos in the page linked to below should help with the rest of your post...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaching_Stock_of_Ireland

MarkoP11

Ballina Manaulla Junc will be switched over in coming weeks a 2 car railcar has been rebuilt to do the run. The first withdrawal date of the cravens was quoted as 1997.

Cork Dublin requires 5 MK3 sets, that means 4 sets freed up mid year which should mean a cascade removing 1 MK2d set from Limerick, Galway and Waterford respectively

The internal marketing name in IE is Cork Dublin Express for the new trains

Sligo is to get the new regional railcars sometime an order was placed with money the NRA couldn't spend. I have IE on record on paper claiming the 2900 is a great train

Red Alert

Anorack question: do the Mk3's all have aircon fitted but can only use it on the
non pushpulls or are they actually missing the equipment to do it?

What coaches are used on the Enterprise - they seem similar to Mk3's but are operated dual-end push-pull with no generator van.

MarkoP11

All normal MK3 coach (the 7000 series coaches) have air conditioning, all 6200 and 6400 also have air conditioning. The original MK3 push pull sets 6100, 6300 series have forced air heating.

The enterprise is a eurostar coach, totally different design with very good air conditioning but the ride can be fairly dodgy

It would be feasible to operate 6 of the 10 daily Sligo line services with MK3 push pull stock. This was put to Irish Rail and they rejected it. What is strange is commuters to Port Laois enjoy intercity trains while the proper commuter trains they should have are wobbling there way to Sligo