Cheney shooting saga continues.

Hobbes

Appears the victim has suffered a heart attack due to a pellet that hit his heart.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/13863648.htm

Also appears the press were kept totally in the dark that the incident even happened and only found out when a local paper had printed the story from an eye-witness.

Ridire_Dubh

Apparently the press was not informed of this accident committed by the US VP for 24 hours?

Why did the VP fail to inform them through the press corps? I would guess that the whole administrative machine was made aware almost instantly, and were in strategy sessions attempting to deal with it (and the press).

Why did the rancher hold off for 24 hours to break the story? It would almost appear that she was buying the administration some time, perhaps at their request?

More than likely, this incident was truly an accident. But the delays when informing the press tends to build mountains out of mole hills.

Yes, if the accident had occurred because of you or me, then I doubt that the press would care. But this is the second highest ranking person in the US, and it would be pure foolishness to assume that a person in this position would not drive the press wild if kept uninformed for 24 hours.

Their administration should listen to a very old song by Don Henley before delaying another 24 hours in a future incident: "Dirty Laundry."

Nuttzz

I suspose he could be refusing to comment until the victim recovers and is out of hospital....

Zebra3

Interesting to see some of the US media actually give someone from the White House a hard time at the press conference instead of being worried about losing their spot in the room. Although the 'tough' questions did come from down the back.

He won't comment on it either.If the man dies.Would cheney get done for manslaughter?

Hobbes

Deleted User wrote:

He won't comment on it either.If the man dies.Would cheney get done for manslaughter?

Police already have said no because it was an accident. Although according to the local hunting laws you aren't supposed to shoot at anything if there is someone in the way or behind the target. Also the guy who got shot was wearing bright orange.

Bet they wouldnt say that if someone turned around and accidentally shot the vp.Prob say he was an al queda operative.:rolleyes:

ShayHT

But he was given a citation for not having a $7 hunting license :rolleyes:

Anyone see '10 Ways Dick Cheney Can Kill You'?

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/02/13/ten_ways_dick_cheney.html

seamus

Hobbes wrote:

Police already have said no because it was an accident.

But, that doesn't exclude the possibility of manslaughter. At the very least, shooting another person "by accident" is by its very definition negligence, since a weapon has no other purpose.
If the wheel flies off a truck and hits someone (as has happened), then that's an accident, with the possibility of no negligence - the wheel was not supposed to come off the truck, and sudden failure is possible without forewarning.
However, this gun was intentionally fired in a particular direction, there was no malfunction or mechanical fault.

Time Magazine

This just shows that guns are so dangerous. I wonder what the NRA will say about it .

Regarding manslaughter, I highly doubt it. They were bird-hunting. Unless some sort of intent or negligence is found (I have a sneaking suspicion this was an accident, they're friends aren't they?) I wouldn't get my claws out.

Zombrex

seamus wrote:

But, that doesn't exclude the possibility of manslaughter. At the very least, shooting another person "by accident" is by its very definition negligence, since a weapon has no other purpose.

True, but it seems it was more the fault of the person who got shot than Cheney. The friend seems to have wandered off away from the group, which you are not supposed to do (seemingly). Though Cheney should have checked his background before firing.

Anyway, this is Texas, you can probably mow down a bus full of school children with a semi-automatic assault rifle and claim you were "hunting" and get off scot free.

Nuttzz

Wicknight wrote:

Anyway, this is Texas, you can probably mow down a bus full of school children with a semi-automatic assault rifle and claim you were "hunting" and get off scot free.

you can yeah, just like in ireland you can drink a bottle of whiskey, mow head on into traffic, kill a few people and say you couldnt get a taxi home :rolleyes:

Gandhi

A political commentator (Tim Russert) on the telly this morning made the point that Cheney is the first Vice President since sometime in the 1950's that has no intention of ever running for President himself. He figured that Cheney wouldn't make any public statements until George Bush went to him and asked him to.

On the train to work on Monday morning (after a big snow fall), the conductor made an announcement:
"For your own safety, please hold the handrail when getting on and off the train, please do not run on the platform, and please do not go hunting with Dick Cheney!"
The whole carriage just cracked up.

Zebra3

Wicknight wrote:

Anyway, this is Texas, you can probably mow down a bus full of school children with a semi-automatic assault rifle and claim you were "hunting" and get off scot free.

Depends on the colour of your skin..... :mad:

Mjollnir

Nuttzz wrote:

you can yeah, just like in ireland you can drink a bottle of whiskey, mow head on into traffic, kill a few people and say you couldnt get a taxi home :rolleyes:

I have no idea of Cheney's history, but I know hunters and blow-hard politicians, and I'm wondering if any of this could have to do with the foggy, foggy dew.

It could explain the shooting to the rear, not paying attention (hearing someone behind him), give a reason for wanting to delay the press notification, etc...

I'm just saying...

Snickers Man

Apparently David Letterman has brought out his Top Ten Chaney Excuses


Quite funny but who the hell is Gretzky's wife? (Who the hell is Gretzky?)
-
Subject: Top Ten Chaney Excuses (Letterman)


10. "Heart palpitation caused trigger finger to spasm"

9. "Wanted to get the Iraq mess off the front page"

8. "Not enough Jim Beam"

7. "Trying to stop the spread of bird flu"

6. "I love to shoot people"

5. "Guy was making cracks about my lesbian daughter"

4. "I thought the guy was trying to go 'gay cowboy' on me"

3. "Excuse? I hit him, didn't I?"

2. "Until Democrats approve medicare reform, we have to make some tough
choices for the elderly"

1. "Made a bet with Gretzky's wife"

Mjollnir

Snickers Man wrote:

Apparently David Letterman has brought out his Top Ten Chaney Excuses


Quite funny but who the hell is Gretzky's wife? (Who the hell is Gretzky?)
-
Subject: Top Ten Chaney Excuses (Letterman)


10. "Heart palpitation caused trigger finger to spasm"

9. "Wanted to get the Iraq mess off the front page"

8. "Not enough Jim Beam"

7. "Trying to stop the spread of bird flu"

6. "I love to shoot people"

5. "Guy was making cracks about my lesbian daughter"

4. "I thought the guy was trying to go 'gay cowboy' on me"

3. "Excuse? I hit him, didn't I?"

2. "Until Democrats approve medicare reform, we have to make some tough
choices for the elderly"

1. "Made a bet with Gretzky's wife"

He is the greatest player in the history of hockey, currently (I think) the coach of a franchise in Arizona, and in the past week or so it has come to light that his wife, a famous spokesmodelfitnessactress, may have been involved in an illegal gambling operation to the tune of..... one....million....dollars...

Quite serious business when the feds are investigating.

Manic Moran

Texas law does not currently have 'involuntary manslaughter' on the books. The closest charge that would be applicable is a variation on criminal negligence.

semi-automatic assault rifle

[nitpick]There is no such thing as a semi-automatic assault rifle. By definition, all assaut rifles are select-fire. (i.e. capable of both automatic and semi-automatic fire)[/nitpick]

NTM

LostinBlanch

Apparently it was a shotgun, the doctors havae said that the victim suffered numerous pellet wounds to the shoulders, chest and face.

Also there are a number of insinuations that Cheney may have been mouldy while hunting.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0215-31.htm

Morrigan

The whole incident is dodgy.
This is a very interesting article on how things don't add up...

http://www.asiantribune.com/show_article.php?id=3014

Dr_Teeth

Manic Moran wrote:

[nitpick]There is no such thing as a semi-automatic assault rifle. By definition, all assaut rifles are select-fire. (i.e. capable of both automatic and semi-automatic fire)[/nitpick]

Apart from, say, all the M16s in the US army?

Rovi

Dr_Teeth wrote:

Apart from, say, all the M16s in the US army?

[continue nitpick]
From http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm-

Armalite / Colt AR-15 / M16 assault rifle (USA)

M16 / AR-15 Technical description
The original AR-15 rifle is a gas operated, selective fire, magazine fed weapon. Every rifle from the M16 family is generally the same, but most civilian AR-15 type rifles are semi-automatic only.

The fire selector / safety switch is located at the left side of the receiver, above the pistol grip, and is easily operated by the right hand thumb. This switch has 3 positions: "safe", "semi" (single shots), and "auto" (full automatic on M16A1 and A3) or "burst" (3 rounds bursts, on M16A2 and A4). In the latter case (on the M16A2 and A4 rifles), the trigger unit also includes the ratchet device to count the shots fired.

...and from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16A2)-

There have been two main iterations of the M16. The first was M16 and M16A1 models, fielded in the 1960s that fired a U.S. M193/M196 round that could fire either semi or fully-automatically. The second was the M16A2, which entered service in the 1980s and is intended to fire the Belgian M855/M856 rounds (5.56 mm NATO). The M16A2 can fire either semi-automatic or bursts of up to three rounds. Mode of fire is determined by using a selector switch on the side of the weapon.

[/continue nitpick]

We live to educate.


.

Manic Moran

Rovi wrote:

We live to educate.

Thank you, good sir, saved me a lot of typing.

That sort of mis-interpretation really irks us gun-owners. It's like thinking that there is a category of rifle called 'assault weapon', which is a term invented by politicians to describe aestethically unacceptable semi-automatics, and not in existance amongst those that know anything about the subject matter.

I should add that as I'm in the US Army, I am quite familiar with the mechanical operation of the M-16 and its derivatives.

NTM

Zombrex

Manic Moran wrote:

That sort of mis-interpretation really irks us gun-owners.

Ok, ok .. just put the gun down ...

Manic Moran

Wicknight wrote:

Ok, ok .. just put the gun down ...

Say hello to my leetil friend...

The_Minister

Morrigan wrote:

The whole incident is dodgy.
This is a very interesting article on how things don't add up...

http://www.asiantribune.com/show_article.php?id=3014

Conjecture. nothing more. A conspiracy theorey founded on a few sparse facts, gross distortions and a hatred of republicans.

Dr_Teeth

Manic Moran wrote:

I should add that as I'm in the US Army, I am quite familiar with the mechanical operation of the M-16 and its derivatives.

NTM

Does the US army issue fully automatic rifles to it's troops, yes or no. The 3-round burst doesn't count imo.

Dr_Teeth

Rovi wrote:

We live to educate.

Really? Your own quote clearly states that the US military M16s are not issued with a fully automatic setting, apart from the Vietnam-era -1 model and a very small number of -3 models supplied to the Navy Seals. If you can't hold down the trigger until the magazine is empty, the weapon clearly isn't fully-automatic.

Manic Moran

The 3-round burst doesn't count imo

Your opinion is wrong, both in apellation, and mechanics. (I don't usually take such a confrontational tone, but in this case, there is no doubt in the issue)

Mechanics: In any semi-automatic weapon, a further action must be taken between individial shots. Generally this involves releasing the trigger and pulling it again. No such action need be taken between individual shots in an M-16 in burst mode.

Legal: The BATFE considers an M16 w/ Burst to be an automatic weapon. This is why it's almost impossible to legally own one in the US.

Appelation: Finally, in teaching description of the rifle, the army calls it an automatic. The TM for the rifle can be seen here:

http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM9-1005-319-10.pdf
"It can be fired in either automatic three-round bursts or semi-automatic single shots"

If your contention that burst mode was a semi-automatic configuration were true, the manual would say 'semi-automatic three-round bursts' instead of what it actually says.

Feel free to try to present your argument in the shooting forum. Good luck.

NTM

Rovi

Dr_Teeth wrote:

Really? Your own quote clearly states that the US military M16s are not issued with a fully automatic setting, apart from the Vietnam-era -1 model and a very small number of -3 models supplied to the Navy Seals. If you can't hold down the trigger until the magazine is empty, the weapon clearly isn't fully-automatic.

As Manic Moran has already explained, you're basing this on an erroneous opinion ("The 3-round burst doesn't count imo").

If you want your opinion to bear some close resemblance to fact, here are the people you'll need to persuade to change their Technical Manuals-
The United States Marine Corps
The United States Army
The United States Air Force
The United States Army National Guard
The United States Coast Guard

If you wish to change any of these organisations from the inside, go here- https://secure.military.com/leads/Recruiting/RecruitingLeadForm1.jsp?ESRC=ggl_rec_gennatlguard.kw to join up.

Alternatively, you might like to go directly to the top- The Pentagon.
Make sure you ask for a Mr. Rumsfeld, I believe he's quite high up.

.

Terry

CORPUS CHRISTI - His face was marked with nicks and bruises and his voice was a little raspy.

But attorney Harry Whittington was all grace Friday as he described himself a lucky person and issued a sincere apology to the man who accidentally shot him — Vice President Dick Cheney.

"My family and I are deeply sorry for all that Vice President Cheney and his family have had to go through this past week," Whittington said. "We send our love and respect to them as they deal with situations that are much more serious than what we had this week.

"We hope he will continue to come to Texas and seek the relaxation he deserves."

After a six-day recovery from the shotgun blast, which also caused a minor heart attack, Whittington checked out of the Christus Spohn Hospital Corpus Christi-Memorial on Friday afternoon and returned home to Austin. He was shot during a quail hunt Saturday on the 50,000-acre Armstrong Ranch in Kenedy County.

Standing ramrod straight and looking dapper in a charcoal blazer, grey slacks and tie, the 78-year-old Austin lawyer spoke briefly before he left. He gave no details of the incident but said it was an accident.

Eyewitnesses have said Whittington left a group of hunters, including Cheney, to retrieve two downed quail. As Whittington started to return to the group, Cheney turned to fire his 28-gauge Italian shotgun at a quail flying in Whittington's direction. He peppered Whittington's face, neck and chest with a spray of small birdshot at a range of about 30 yards, witnesses said.

Whittington indicated that being hit by stray birdshot is an inherent risk in hunting.

"We all assume certain risks in whatever we do, whatever activities we pursue, and regardless of how experienced, careful and dedicated we are, accidents do and will happen and that's what happened," he said.

During his hospital stay, Whittington battled not only scores of wounds from the shooting but the minor heart attack, which was controlled with medicine. Whittington still carries dozens of shotgun pellets embedded in his head, neck and chest, including the pellet that moved into his heart muscle.

In his remarks to reporters, Whittington lost his composure only briefly, when he thanked the hospital staff for the "exceptional care he received during his recovery."

He also apologized to reporters for making them wait.

"I regret I couldn't have been here earlier so you could see what a lucky man I am," he said.

"I also thank all of you for understanding as best you can that medical attention is very important to someone my age — and you haven't failed to give my age," he added.

Cheney, speaking Friday to the Wyoming Legislature, talked briefly about the shooting, saying he had had a long week.

"Thankfully, Harry Whittington is on the mend and doing well," Cheney said.

On Thursday, the Kenedy County Sheriff's Department said its investigation of the shooting was closed, and no criminal charges would be brought. "This was just a mere hunting accident," said Chief Deputy Gilberto San Miguel.

But the criticism has continued over how the shooting was made public. Cheney waited a day to tell the media, and then did so by allowing one of the ranch owners to call a local newspaper.

The vice president has publicly described the shooting only once — in a television interview with Fox News.

Katharine Armstrong, the ranch's co-owner who witnessed the shooting, admonished the news media for how it has handled the incident.

"I'm so upset with the press corps — the whole group needs a sound thrashing," Armstrong said. "These are people of the highest integrity — and the media put them through a meat grinder."

Armstrong was at Whittington's house for his arrival Friday about 5 p.m. Sitting in the front passenger seat of a green SUV, Whittington smiled and waved to reporters as his car went into the garage.

One of Whittington's daughters, Sally May, said her father was resting but doing well after the 217-mile drive home from Corpus Christi.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3668578.html

now i don't know about the rest of you, but if somebody shoots me in the face, i would expect an apology from them. hmm. seems that being VP of the usa means you are always in the right, even if you do shoot someone.

yes, it was an accident, but if i accidently cause someone to have a minor heart attack i will apologise to them and not the other way around.

Manic Moran

I wouldn't be surprised if Cheney made an apology to him in person.

Rovi, I'd submit that the National Guard link is extraneous: They use the same manuals as the Army.

NTM

Victor

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45572