"Cheater" wins PARTY $500K

willis

This guy JJProdigy, apparantely 1 of the very best online players acording to PocketFives.com, won the $500k on Party the other night. However he got knocked out, but had staked his "Grandma" to play the same tourny at a computer right beside his. His grandma was doing great, so he took over from her and won it on her account. Full Story here

Does everybody think this is cheating and what about his explanation he gives on Pocket Fives(link to this is in above link also)

Culchie

willis wrote:

This guy JJProdigy, apparantely 1 of the very best online players acording to PocketFives.com, won the $500k on Party the other night. However he got knocked out, but had staked his "Grandma" to play the same tourny at a computer right beside his. His grandma was doing great, so he took over from her and won it on her account. Full Story here

Does everybody think this is cheating and what about his explanation he gives on Pocket Fives(link to this is in above link also)

"Grandma" in inverted commas is right.

Shouldn't be allowed, and taking this sort of prize off someone might send out a pretty clear message.

Ollieboy

I thought the poker software houses had software to stop people playing multi machines on the same IP address, unless he had 2 Broadband lines.

ianmc38

I think it's disgraceful and the money should be taken from him. It's possibly one of the worst excuses i've ever heard.

shoutman

That is absolutely disgracefull. Whether or not it will be possible for party to take the money off him I dont know, but they should definately freeze his account in my opinion.

Mmmm_Lemony

I have broadband and a wifi laptop. My house mate was playing in an mtt and I decided to join for the crack. It came up with an error message when I joined that only one entry per IP address or something along those lines. I think Pokerstars should follow the same line. I'm surprised Pokerstars aren't already doing it.

I wasn't thinking at the time but this would obviously be a way of cheating imo. If it was allowed, you could enter a cash game and have 8 accounts at the one table, and fairly easily rip people off.

willis

I have wireless broadband and have in the past entered the same multi as my brother on PPP. However if we get moved to one anothers table it forces 1 player to sit out,so 2 people can never be sitting at the same table.this is the same for party i think

Daithio

I don't have any problem with this. I mean he's putting the money in twice, and his money wagered to expected return ratio is no better than somebody's who has only entered once. I think you can only say someone is cheating when the odds have been changed in their favour through some sort of underhand tactics. This hasn't happened here.

There are 4 poker players in my house, and we have a number of pcs. Often there'll be two of us in the same tourney, although most sites won't allow you end up on the same table. I don't think this is cheating, and I don't see any huge difference between this and what jjprodigy has done. As long as the two accounts don't end up on the same table I don't think it can be said that he cheated.

azzeretti

umm, not sure abou this, what about internet cafes or poker rooms (the fitz) or even big multi national companies!! These would all, more than likely, be NAT'ing out of the same IP address. So you could have, in theory, 30 users, in the same poker lounge or internet cafe, who don't know each other but are connected to the same poker site playing the same tourney using the same external IP address.
I think what this guy has done is VERY wrong, but there are plenty of times when players can be using the same IP address but don't even know it. I've been in the Gutshot and seen plenty of players playing together, most didn't even know each other, but to the site they could appear to be playing together, its a tricky one I think.

PPP-Pit Boss

He cheated. Plain and simple the prize should be forfeit and he should be banned from the site. The victims of his shenanigans should be compensated and the prize awarded to the genuine players in the tournament. Disgraceful!

NickyOD

Daithio wrote:

I don't have any problem with this. I mean he's putting the money in twice, and his money wagered to expected return ratio is no better than somebody's who has only entered once. I think you can only say someone is cheating when the odds have been changed in their favour through some sort of underhand tactics. This hasn't happened here.

There are 4 poker players in my house, and we have a number of pcs. Often there'll be two of us in the same tourney, although most sites won't allow you end up on the same table. I don't think this is cheating, and I don't see any huge difference between this and what jjprodigy has done. As long as the two accounts don't end up on the same table I don't think it can be said that he cheated.

Dave come on now, he played two different stacks in the same tournament. That's ridiculous considering who he is (not that who he is makes it any different). Would you have a problem with Phil Ivey playing more than one stack in the same live event?

slegs

lads its not that difficult to get different unique IP addresses to terminate in your home on different PC's with the right network equipment...companies do it all the time for different systems and websites etc

there is nothing to say he used NAT to go out thru one IP address.

PPP-Pit Boss

I dont really think it is a question of playing from the same IP. It is a question of "so like I saw she was doing really well with 10k stack so I took over..."
So Dalthio / azz. You think it is acceptable to a play twice in the same tournamnet thereby giving yourself an advantage over your opponenents by playing two stacks? And / Or for a player to play relay poker in the middle of a tournament springboarding your win off their fortuitously ample stack?
IMHO ridiculouos

azzeretti

slegs wrote:

lads its not that difficult to get different unique IP addresses to terminate in your home on different PC's with the right network equipment...companies do it all the time for different systems and websites etc

there is nothing to say he used NAT to go out thru one IP address.

?
You can only get different external address if you pay for them. ISP's are a little reluctant to give out multiple external address due to the limitations of IPV4. No equitment in the world can create more exteranl IP addresses. Most, not all, companies, plonk a nice big router/firewall at the front and then get a few external addresses and switch on NAT. This is not really for the poker forum, but some ISP's still give out staict IP addresses and you could buy different links if you wanted etc.
Either, this guy cheated and should be banned from the site, full stop.

azzeretti

PPP-Pit Boss wrote:

So Dalthio / azz. You think it is acceptable to a play twice in the same tournamnet thereby giving yourself an advantage over your opponenents by playing two stacks? And / Or for a player to play relay poker in the middle of a tournament springboarding your win off their fortuitously ample stack?
IMHO ridiculouos

ABSOLUTLY NOT. And if you had read my post in full you would see I have already stated this.

Daithio

NickyOD wrote:

Dave come on now, he played two different stacks in the same tournament. That's ridiculous considering who he is (not that who he is makes it any differenent). Would you have a problem with Phil Ivey playing more than one stack in the same live event?

Not at all, it would seriously dent his chances as he'd be missing half the hands of each stack. JJprodigy doesn't have this disadvantage, but he has paid in twice. He has doubled his chances of winning it, but he has also doubled his wager, so where's the problem?

Also it shouldn't make any difference who he is. If you are using this argument than you could use the argument that he shouldn't be allowed to enter even once because his odds of winning it are so much better than the average player's. Would you have a problem with an absolute fish, who had no chance of winning, entering twice? I know I wouldn't, and so I think it should be the same for anyone else entering twice.

Mmmm_Lemony

willis wrote:

I have wireless broadband and have in the past entered the same multi as my brother on PPP. However if we get moved to one anothers table it forces 1 player to sit out,so 2 people can never be sitting at the same table.this is the same for party i think

It was PPP. It wouldn't allow me join at all. Maybe they changed it since you tried. This happened about 3 months ago. I can't see how they would allow you enter more than one user from the same IP at all. What happens if both get to the final table? Maybe a PPP person can answer this.

PPP-Pit Boss

Daithio wrote:

Not at all, it would seriously dent his chances as he'd be missing half the hands of each stack. JJprodigy doesn't have this disadvantage, but he has paid in twice. He has doubled his chances of winning it, but he has also doubled his wager, so where's the problem?

The problem is that it is not permitted.
Not in live poker
Not in online poker
Therefore he forfeits his prize by circumnavigating the rules in order to give himself an advantage that the other players do not have as they abide by the rules.

NickyOD

Daithio wrote:

He has doubled his chances of winning it

Right. And you don't see a problem with this? This is exactly the same as someone getting busted from the tournament and getting a rebuy that no one else gets. It's a joke Dave and its against the rules of the tournament outlined on the Party website.....if only I can find them.

5starpool

It is often possible in an apartment block to have more than one wireless network available to connect to. It is amazing how many people don't secure their wireless connections. In my building there can be anything up to 4 networks available to connect to at any one time, and out of curiosity once I checked how many were secure, and the one I am on was the only one.

willis

PPP-Pit Boss wrote:

I dont really think it is a question of playing from the same IP. It is a question of "so like I saw she was doing really well with 10k stack so I took over..."
So Dalthio / azz. You think it is acceptable to a play twice in the same tournamnet thereby giving yourself an advantage over your opponenents by playing two stacks? And / Or for a player to play relay poker in the middle of a tournament springboarding your win off their fortuitously ample stack?
IMHO ridiculouos

But do PPP advocate me taking over from my brother who is chip leader with 10 players left and gets an emergency call and ive already been knocked out.

Also if PPP are so strict then why not stop players from the same IP address from playing the same MTT.if i play an mtt with my bro,i get knocked out but he says"will, i feel you have a better chance, will u take over from me", WOULD PPP CONSIDER THIS CHEATING?

Ste05

I've been following this on 2+2 for the last few days, here's some links for those who are interested.

BTW, JJProdigy used to be a mod on 2+2.

Original Thread

Another thread

Another

Daithio

What's the difference between what jjprodigy did here, and say me playing the party 500k and stars 750k at the same time?

They may be two different tournaments, but I don't see any great difference. He may be aiming at the same prize pool if he is playing two accounts in the same tourney, but if can't end up playing at the same table with both accounts, then there is no specific advantage incurred.

Do you have a problem with two people from the same ip address playing in the same tournament? (providing of course the can't end up at the same table). I don't see any problem with this, and I don't see any difference between this and one person playing two accounts from the same address. The key point is that it's not affecting anybody else's chances of winning the tournament, and so it shouldn't make a difference.

Ollieboy

I think the point here is he improved his chances of winning, my having muilt ip address, which he done on purpose so that he could cheat if required. There's no proof that he cheated, but having two landlines or ip address or whatever, give's him the opportunity to cheat.

I agree with Dave about him buying in twice only improves his chances and is not cheating, example of this would be a player sitting at a rebuy tourney with a large bankroll and buying in loads of times, again, this is not cheating, but an unfair advantage over the other players.

But this player as a good record online and I feel this event as highlight how he achieve this. By bending the rules in his favour, which is bad news for everyone else, as it means we have to do the same to keep up with him. A bit like a runner taken drugs and the rest do the same to stand a chance.

I think the terms and conditions on poker house sites will have to be changed and only allow 1 player per ip address, but this wont solve the problem.

In this situation, I think he should be disqualified and money withdrawn, he's help another player to win the tourney by playing his/her hands, which is colusion or something like that.

NickyOD

"5. True Identity and One Account.

The name on your Account must match your true and legal name and identity and the name on your PartyPoker.com Account registration must match the name on the credit card(s) or other payment accounts used to deposit or receive monies in your Account. You are prohibited from holding more than one Account at PartyPoker.com. If you have more than one (1) Account or Accounts in different names, then you must contact us immediately to have your Accounts managed so that you only have one (1). If you have lost your Account name or password, please contact us for a replacement. "

Daithio

NickyOD wrote:

Right. And you don't see a problem with this? This is exactly the same as someone getting busted from the tournament and getting a rebuy that no one else gets. It's a joke Dave and its against the rules of the tournament outlined on the Party website.....if only I can find them.

It's not exactly the same at all. If he gets busted from either account it is game over, so his strategy should be no different than if he was playing only one account. If it's a rebuy tournament, you can gamble to get chips, knowing that you can just buy in again. He is playing two freezeouts here, not one rebuy.

The key point, I think, is what I said already. His entering this tournament twice is not affecting anybody else's chances of winning the tournament, and so, IMO, he is not cheating. Willis made a couple of good points above about people in the same house playing in the same tourney.

Or what about what Andy Black did when he won the stars weekly one? A mate of his played the first 3/4 hours, and then Andy finished it off. Do you have a problem with this? I don't. What's the difference betweeen one person playing on two accounts and two people playing on one account? There is none that I can see.

willis

Ollieboy wrote:

I think the point here is he improved his chances of winning, my having muilt ip address, which he done on purpose so that he could cheat if required. There's no proof that he cheated, but having two landlines or ip address or whatever, give's him the opportunity to cheat.

Ollie he dosent need two different ip addresses to play the same tournament. As long as your not at the same table as many people as u like can play in the same tournament. his two accounts where never on the same table so he hasnt chip dumped or anything of the likes

NickyOD

Daithio wrote:

It's not exactly the same at all. If he gets busted from either account it is game over, so his strategy should be no different than if he was playing only one account. If it's a rebuy tournament, you can gamble to get chips, knowing that you can just buy in again. He is playing two freezeouts here, not one rebuy..

How many stacks of chips does everyone get in a freezeout?

Daithio wrote:

The key point, I think, is what I said already. His entering this tournament twice is not affecting anybody else's chances of winning the tournament, ..

Actually it does give him an advantage. He gets info on twice as many players, so if he comes across a player that was at his other table he has info nobody else at the table has. Also what happens when both accounts reach the final table?

Daithio wrote:

and so, IMO, he is not cheating. .

According the rules of Party Poker it is.

Daithio wrote:

Or what about what Andy Black did when he won the stars weekly one? A mate of his played the first 3/4 hours, and then Andy finished it off. Do you have a problem with this? I don't. What's the difference betweeen one person playing on two accounts and two people playing on one account? There is none that I can see.

2 players playing one stack have the same chance of winning a tournament as one person playing one stack. One person playing 2 stacks IS complatetly different.

Ollieboy

willis wrote:

Ollie he dosent need two different ip addresses to play the same tournament. As long as your not at the same table as many people as u like can play in the same tournament. his two accounts where never on the same table so he hasnt chip dumped or anything of the likes

Sorry Willis, my point is, if he has two ip address set-up for playing poker, than he's done this for a reason, to cheat. I'm sure if this is the case, hes playing cash and STT games also.

Earwig Eddie

it is affecting other peoples chances when (what people are refering to as) a top player has to be eliminated more than once.

as someone in one of the other threads said - how would you like to knock phil ivey out of the wsop only for him to go relieve someone else of their seat and take over using their chips.

Mmmm_Lemony

NickyOD wrote:

How many stacks of chips does everyone get in a freezeout?


According the rules of Party Poker it is.

Not quite. It only says 'holding' more than one account, not taking over from granny after a while. I think the guy is being clever here by bringing granny into the equation, and knows that if he flat out saws he has two accounts he's screwed.

At the end of the day it's still cheating though, and hopefully the rules will be updated to stop it.

Daithio

I don't think it's different at all. You have to draw the line somewhere, and in both of these cases you're drawing the line in different places. Either a person can only play on their account and their account alone, or people can swap accounts and play through other accounts as they please. For practical reasons I think the latter is a much more policeable strategy to adopt. In online poker rooms, IMO, it is the account that is playing the tournament, and who is behind it shouldn't make a difference, providing that that person does not gain further knowledge by being on the same table as another account registered from the same ip address. This is not allowed on most sites, afaik, so it is not a problem.

Daithio

ocallagh is posting a reply to this thread from the same ip address as me, is that allowed mods?;)

kincsem

I can't see much advantage in normal play.

But you could get interesting situations. Suppose there are ten players left, five on each table, and one player is playing a stack on each table. The final table (nine players) get paid.

Now does he have an advantage?

If he had a very large stack on one table and a small stack on the other table my guess he would protect his small stack's chances by being extra aggressive with the large stack.

If the software didn't prevent him playing two accounts earlier would it stop the two stacks reaching the final table? If the software would prevent two stacks on one table could we have a situation where he could phone a friend still in the tourney and dump off chips to him/her? If many players play two stacks then this might become common behaviour.

ianmc38

Daithio wrote:

ocallagh is posting a reply to this thread from the same ip address as me, is that allowed mods?;)

TBH Dave, you havn't made one point that sways me at all. Playing in 2 different tournaments simultaneously is an awful comparison, as he is only entered once in each. Playing two accounts in one tournament is against the rules and gives him an edge over every other player, before skill is ever even considered.

The game is a freezeout meaning you have one chance. No more, no less. This rule applies to everyone. You cannot condone someone who knowingly and deliberately breaks the terms and conditions of a poker room, that every other player adheres to. The fact he has bought in twice incurring twice the risk has no relevance at all. The only fact that needs to be considered is that he has willingly broken the rules that everyone else abides by. End of story.

ocallagh

Daithio wrote:

I don't think it's different at all. You have to draw the line somewhere, and in both of these cases you're drawing the line in different places. Either a person can only play on their account and their account alone, or people can swap accounts and play through other accounts as they please. For practical reasons I think the latter is a much more policeable strategy to adopt. In online poker rooms, IMO, it is the account that is playing the tournament, and who is behind it shouldn't make a difference, providing that that person does not gain further knowledge by being on the same table as another account registered from the same ip address. This is not allowed on most sites, afaik, so it is not a problem.

If a player did enter an MTT more than once, the tournament is no longer the same MTT to which everyone signed up for.. and if I was playing in that $215 event I would demand my money back..

Imagine a $100 MTT. (Fitz 100 on Monday or something similar...) This tournament usually gets 100 players, 5 of whom are winning players. All 5 players are well known. They cash in the MTT more often than not and they often win it. The other 95 players know that they need to beat these 5 winning players in order to win it. They know the general stanard of he MTT etc... They sign up to the MTT knowing this.. It is the nature of an MTT to have a few favourites after all. Nobody can stop these 5 players from playing..

Now, imagine that same $100 MTT, however those 5 winning players all bought in 10 times.. The prize fund has increased accordingly of course, but now you have 50 winning players to beat. Now, of the other 95 losing players how many do you think would register for it now? I would guess very few. And do you think it would be fair to allow one of those players to register without telling them about the changes to the MTT? NO, it would not be fair and for this reason anyone who played in that 215 tournament has a case for a refund

willis

ok for everyone who thinks he cheated, answer these 3:
Scenario 1:
ur mate and u are playin same tourny,u get busted, he calls u and says he has to go, can u play on for him,u agree. Is this Cheating?

Scenario 2:
ur mate and u are playin same tourny,u get busted, he calls u and says "will u coach me". so u go to his house and help him. is this cheating

Scenario :
ur mate and u are playin same tourny,u get busted, he calls u and says "will u help me?but when u go to his house its u making every decision, he gives no input and the only thing he does is click the mouse, u make every decision 4 him. Is this cheating?

NB: You have played the very same tourny as him and could have reads/notes on his opponents in all 3 cases

Culchie

willis wrote:

ok for everyone who thinks he cheated, answer these 3:
Scenario 1:
ur mate and u are playin same tourny,u get busted, he calls u and says he has to go, can u play on for him,u agree. Is this Cheating?

Scenario 2:
ur mate and u are playin same tourny,u get busted, he calls u and says "will u coach me". so u go to his house and help him. is this cheating

Scenario :
ur mate and u are playin same tourny,u get busted, he calls u and says "will u help me?but when u go to his house its u making every decision, he gives no input and the only thing he does is click the mouse, u make every decision 4 him. Is this cheating?

NB: You have played the very same tourny as him and could have reads/notes on his opponents in all 3 cases

Yes,Yes and Yes ... as far as the other players in the field are concerned.

Whether you can be detected or not, is not the point.

loosecannon

I have to agree strongly with Daithio here, although it my opinion it is not cheating, it is really irrelevant whether it is or not because that's the nature of the beast of internet poker. As has been said, with the way that technology is going, it is very possible to get many different IP addresses off the same network and even if you're living in an apartment block you could pick up numerous amounts of IP addresses. (IMO this pro probably played more than two accounts in the tournament as well, he may well have had 5 or 6)

I also feel comparing this to Real poker is pointless, internet poker never has or will be very similiar to Live poker and you have to understand that this is one of the method's people will use playing internet poker and it is almost impossible to stop. Look at just how easy it is to set up online poker accounts, esp on some sites!

In a similiar point to this one i have heard of people paying in and playing on multiple accounts with friend's help into Satellites (to the WPT, EPT etc) that offer good value. Surely that is even worse than this guy playing a couple of accounts in a Cash MTT, that let's face it is going to take a lot of luck to win anyway

RasTa

I'm very surpised some of you accept this.
I agree with everything ocallagh said and please dont tell me yous believe the grandmother story.

PPP-Pit Boss

willis wrote:

WOULD PPP CONSIDER THIS CHEATING?

yes.. Did I not already say this :0)
Relay poker is not permitted in live poker either. It isnt easy to prove all the same unless said noodlehead comes foreward complete with outragious granny story. Part of the 101 Worst Christmas Cracker excuses ever.

masterK

I wonder what he would have done if the 2 accounts ended up at the same table (assuming he had two different phone lines in use). Would he have held his hands up and said I have an unfair advantage or would he have played one to assist the other? The answer is pretty obvious IMO.

willis

PPP-Pit Boss wrote:

yes.. Did I not already say this :0)
Relay poker is not permitted in live poker either. It isnt easy to prove all the same unless said noodlehead comes foreward complete with outragious granny story. Part of the 101 Worst Christmas Cracker excuses ever.

Its impossible to prove unless clowns like this basically admit to it

BrokenArrows

I would not consider this cheating.

Its only really cheating if he managed to play at the same table with the two accounts and was looking at the other players hand.

Think of it this way.

Two neighbours were playing the same tourne and one did well and got to the final table and one got knocked out.
The neighbour that got knocked out went and played the final table for him.

Would you consider this cheating?

Nalced_irl

RasTa wrote:

please dont tell me yous believe the grandmother story.

That is the stupidest excuse i have ever heard. I wonder how long he spent thinking the story up. No matter how much he makes for them no site should allow that and those winnings should be instantly frozen and he should be told where to go. What if the 2 accounts ended up at the same table? I think anyone who thinks its ok`s perception of it may change alot if that had happened.

PPP-Pit Boss

Oh I am pretty sure if any of the scenario 1 - 500's were at this tournament it would be toys out of the pram!

Culchie

BrokenArrows wrote:

I would not consider this cheating.

Its only really cheating if he managed to play at the same table with the two accounts and was looking at the other players hand.

Think of it this way.

Two neighbours were playing the same tourne and one did well and got to the final table and one got knocked out.
The neighbour that got knocked out went and played the final table for him.

Would you consider this cheating?

Yes, Yes, Yes

Just because the police don't catch you for killing someone, doesn't mean you are not a murderer.

You are saying cheating is OK, as long as you don't get caught.

It is cheating, it cheats the other competitiors in the field. It increases your chances unfairly, it decreases their chances unfairly.

Oh and BTW, do you seriously, honestly, credibly think that himself and 'Grandma' would not fall to the temptation of 'accidentially' showing each other their hole cards.

willis

Culchie they were never at the same table. also if i play ppp with my bro it will make 1 of us sit out if we get to the same table in an mtt. Now im not sure if this guy has deliberately gone and got a separate ip address,if he has its cheating, if not then i can be accused of cheating as ive previously got disconnected,rang 1 of my mates and they have played on 4 me on numerous occasions.

Am i a cheat? Or if i get disconnected should i just say "ah well" and give up? These mates could have been in the same tourny.does it matter if he was/wasnt?

Waylander

I am inclined to agree with Dathio here. I would like a bit more information, like how long the tournie was on before his first account was knocked out. If this was any time at all, then he was disadvantaging himslef by playing two accounts, or someone else was actually playing his second account. I do not really have a problem with either scenario there. I have taken over from people in my house before when they have had to leave and were still involved in a tournament, and I am sure allot of the people who are so indignant on this thread have done so too. As long as he was not in a position to dump chips to himself I do not see a problem with this Saying he cannot do it because he is a very successful player is just wrong, you cannot apply one set of rules to good players, and another set to lesser players.

PPP-Pit Boss

It is still cheating. Well put it this way. It is circumnaviagting the terms and conditions of the site.. oh yes that would be a definition of cheating. But The bigger picture is being missed with all of these somantics. He bought in twice played the tournament with duplicate accounts, made up a granny story when he got caught. Nail his noodle to the wall and give the money to the genuine players in the tournament. Willis if you cant do it live you cant do it online. - Yes you are a cheat if you have other players impersonating you. Not only that but you have compromised the security of your account. Way to go!

Culchie

willis wrote:

Culchie they were never at the same table. also if i play ppp with my bro it will make 1 of us sit out if we get to the same table in an mtt. Now im not sure if this guy has deliberately gone and got a separate ip address,if he has its cheating, if not then i can be accused of cheating as ive previously got disconnected,rang 1 of my mates and they have played on 4 me on numerous occasions.

Am i a cheat? Or if i get disconnected should i just say "ah well" and give up? These mates could have been in the same tourny.does it matter if he was/wasnt?

Will, if Grandma and Cuddly Grandson have paid $215 into a tourney, their ambition surely to be on the final table and win some money isn't it? So their intention is to be on the final table together isn't it. This case is absolute black and white.

Now, regarding you and your brother type scenario, you're sorta backing me into a corner on this one, not intentionally I'm sure, but I'm trying to get across my point honestly here, without offending anyone, so I'm sure you'll respect that.

If you look at it from the other players point of view in the tournament, rather than your own, I think it helps clarify things a little better.